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JNR

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  1. Yes, but that's not really GRRM talking; it's Maester Yandel, so I didn't think it was what Lynn was looking for. There is also this passage from the canon that basically says the same stuff: Since this is Jaime's direct personal observation, and confirms the other info, I think we can assume Dawn is indeed very sharp and too pale to remind anyone of traditional Valyrian steel. Also helpful is the fact that the ripples in Valyrian steel come from folding the steel during forging: Since Dawn is never described as having such ripples, I think we can at least conclude it was forged in a fundamentally different way than any of the Valyrian steel we've ever encountered in canon, or that the Lannisters have ever heard of. I think the odds are very good Dawn is just simply not Valyrian steel. If it's far older than Valyria itself, I wouldn't be surprised.
  2. Not in an SSM, no. He is however very clear that Valyrian steel is made with spells and has not made that remark about Dawn, to my knowledge. About Dawn's origin, he has only said it goes back at least a couple thousand years.
  3. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    Fundamentally I agree with you that the concept of Jon being Rhaegar's son by Lyanna should've been worked out by various people in Westeros. I would also add that while some have argued no one knows Lyanna died at the TOJ, that seems a rather dubious argument to me, because: I find this all but irrefutable evidence Ned told Lady Dustin that Lyanna died at the same place as Lord Dustin -- "beneath the red mountains of Dorne" -- and that he had buried Lord Dustin there, but not Lyanna. That's the exact reason Lady Dustin is furious: that double standard in Ned's behavior. So Ned did not keep this to himself. However: 1. We don't know R+L=J hasn't been conceived by various characters. We get only a tiny fraction of the available thoughts from a tiny fraction of the people. Varys is just one of endless possibilities; there may be hundreds of people who thought of it. 2. Ned's honor is so extraordinary, famous, and well established that most characters probably never conceived of him as lying about a thing like that. 3. The premise that GRRM is trying to keep R+L=J "a big secret" from his fans, and that's why he has no characters discuss it, just makes me chuckle. He always knew it would cross the minds of his readers. No cliche in fantasy history is better established and more predictable than the downtrodden male teen who turns out to be the heir to the throne of a great kingdom; this is exactly why Parris McBride, in expressing doubt about R+L=J, famously said "George doesn't do obvious." Obvious is by definition easy to imagine.
  4. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    True. Even in the conventional idea that Jon was born at the TOJ to Lyanna. Some have pictured the rose petals that fell from her palm when she died as the petals from her crown... but this is a ludicrous idea. The room, Ned recalled, smelled of roses, so she had fresh roses. There was even a fan video done as a recreation of the supposed TOJ "Promise me, Ned" scene that featured Lyanna wearing such a crown of blue roses as she addressed Ned from her deathbed. I got quite a good laugh out of that; the creators didn't appear to have realized those roses would have been cut about two years before.
  5. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    This is a critically important point: Ned thinking about the crown doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Jon's parentage. He could quite simply have been thinking of that crown as a symbol of the war it helped inspire, and the blood shed in that war. Much the same concept, in fact, is overtly implied by Theon's dream in ACOK: Theon, as far as I recall from canon, has zero secret knowledge of Jon's parentage in his head. Yet there he is, dreaming of Lyanna wearing the crown in a gown spattered with gore... rather like Ned dreaming of touching the crown and bleeding after cutting his hand.
  6. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    There's no way to know for sure, of course. But I honestly do not think so. We have an entire book (AFFC) in which neither one so much as gets a single POV chapter. In ASOIAF overall, the character who has received the largest number of POV chapter is... Tyrion, with 49. Jon gets 42. And Dany is well back in the list, with only 31, trailing Arya at 34. My personal opinion, which I admit is only that, is that GRRM doesn't mean for ASOIAF to have a traditional protagonist at all. Or if it does, that protagonist is something more abstract, like Westeros. As in: "ASOIAF is the story of Westeros at the time leading up to, during, and following the second Long Night." That, I think, he might get behind as a premise. Maybe. If either Dany or Jon is going to pair off with someone permanently... a thing that seems to me by no means certain... I see their becoming a couple as only one possibility and not the strongest at the moment. This I agree with. I just look at what they did on the show and shake my head sadly and find it hard to believe GRRM would cheerfully associate with another show that reiterated it or reinforced it. And I have read enough of your stuff to know you would have come up with something much better, as would we all have. It's too bad the show didn't make logic or continuity a priority.
  7. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    The concept that the books are all about Jon and Dany is sufficiently insane, I chuckle just imagining GRRM saying such a thing. Whatever he said, on whatever topic, it surely wasn't that. What GRRM has actually said in interviews is that Hollywood people have at various times come to him and tried to make it all about this character, or that character... and he has always resisted that because it defeats the multi-POV structure he so painstakingly implemented in all the canonical books. Seriously, now. You are much too familiar with the canon to believe a thing like that.
  8. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    That's true, though there are other accounts. There is the account of Alfie Allen, for instance, who claimed he asked GRRM who Jon's parents were, and was told. Does that seem probable? -- that an actor can just ask GRRM "Who are Jon's parents?" and get a straight and complete answer for his trouble? Or did GRRM tell him half the parents, wink, and let Mr. Allen persuade himself he knew the whole story? No way to know. In any case, it remains to be seen how much GRRM told D&D. We do know he never told them the solutions to other major mysteries, such as the origin of white walkers. We know that, factually, because HBO is promoting the prequel show as boasting "the true origin of the white walkers," meaning the comical version given on the current show is not true. I find that quite interesting... that GRRM obviously never told the show-runners of GOT a hugely important thing like that. It's almost as if he said to himself, wisely, "George, you might wanna hold back some good stuff for your books."
  9. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    Agreed. However, it's irrelevant in my case, because it's not what I said. I didn't point out it was a fever dream, or say that that particular instance of the dream was the only thing tying Lyanna to the TOJ. I said simply that the dream was the only thing tying Lyanna to the TOJ... knowing as I did that Ned's had the dream more than once, and understanding why he's had it more than once. Very good questions, to be sure. I think we agree, abstractly, that perceived and probable motive is an awfully good tool to leverage in prying out the answers to canonical mysteries. OK, I'll be clearer if this comes up in future. So would I. But a mother does not define a parentage. If we like, we can imagine... by fabricating narratives that satisfy us as individuals... where she was, and what she was doing, and with whom, spanning a timeframe of more than a year (or so it seems). This, actually, is what various characters in the books have done, not always arriving at the same narrative in the process. But at the moment, that's about all we can do, because the canon doesn't provide objective answers even for a single day in that lengthy timeframe. And as long as that's the case, all kinds of intriguing possibilities will remain on the table.
  10. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    Yep, complete agreement about all that. I would go a bit further still, dissenting with some of my fellow Heretics, in suggesting that the three Kingsguard were, in fact, Targ loyalists -- right to the bone. Also, IMO, the dialogue with the KG did take place. The dream version is not complete.. but what is given occurred nearly verbatim as it appears in the dream. And Ned's courteous, polite tone, as rendered in the dream, also reflects the reality. I can respect that position while disagreeing with it. As for the "100% likely" claim, that was made by J. Stargaryen, as reported by Apple Martini, who agreed. "Concrete" would be Dorian Martell's son (on many occasions). I'm sure I can find the links, if you're curious, but you probably aren't. Ah, no, I said no such thing. I certainly think R+L=J is dramatically more probable than, say, Ned and the fisherman's daughter... never mind something more exotic like Hodor + Catelyn (my second-favorite crackpot theory). Oh, I think we can easily demonstrate there are more possibilities than that. They just aren't explicitly offered up on a a plate, as those three are. This, though, is itself a subject that could be debated. To wit: Suppose TWOW eventually rolls out Jon's true parents, and it turns out they were never suggested by anybody in canon, and they're also not Rhaegar and Lyanna. Will that be a logical problem for readers? I don't see how it can be... because nobody in the books ever suggests R+L=J either. Yet R+L=J, obviously, is seen as a valid possible answer. Thus it sets a precedent.
  11. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    All that would be contradicted is the casual assumption by fans (not the canon) that the dream must reflect reality. We know, for sure, it does not reflect reality in aspects. Whether Lyanna is one remains to be seen. That's true, and an excellent point; it demonstrates how absurd it is to claim R+L=J is 100% likely, or concrete, or "confirmed," or anything along these lines. It was always, and still is, only one possibility among many.
  12. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    It's true he's had the surrealistic dream before. This, however, is irrelevant. The surrealistic dream he's had before is still the only canonical information tying Lyanna to the TOJ. "Promise me, Ned," a waking memory, is simply not part of that dream. Full stop. We can interpret the surrealistic dream as literally placing her there in real life, or not, as we see fit... but GRRM's flat warning on this topic should be instructive. Just as a little hint to folks, I'm going to point out that if you think the dream is literal, then you must find it peculiar Ned never mentions Lyanna to the Kingsguard -- not once. Quite a different situation is happening there, which we can deduce if we're skillful enough. Few of us are.
  13. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    I think what Sir Arthur is getting at is that you are conflating two completely different passages here. Ned's surrealistic dream is the sole evidence Lyanna was at the TOJ. The passage mentioned above, however, doesn't come from that dream. It's this: This is a conscious memory of Ned's drawn from the crypts chapter, aka Eddard 1. It conclusively establishes Howland's presence at Lyanna's place of death, but not that that place was the TOJ. Just like Jon being Ned's bastard, yes. It's true that there is a logical connection there in Ned's dreaming mind. I suspect that when TWOW is out, people are going to complain about what GRRM did with this area of the canon. And when they do, I am going to remind them GRRM explicitly told them, in an SSM, that our dreams are not always literal. He played well within the rules in my opinion and there will be no real grounds for criticism.
  14. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    Oh, it certainly does. Because Lady Dustin has evidently heard the tale of the TOJ from Ned, and she believes it, and her anger is based on that premise. GRRM's pretty good about this sort of thing. Character reactions do not stem from some sort of omniscient knowledge of truth, as you appear to think they should; instead they emerge from the information characters actually have at particular points in time. Your case above is roughly like saying "But if Jon is really Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, why would Catelyn be unhappy that Ned raised him at Winterfell?" Yes, he did, but you seem seriously to believe he did a dishonorable and lazy thing, in not bringing Arthur Dayne's remains to Starfall. You seem to believe this, even though it was literally the next place he was going after finding Lyanna (in your scenario), and even though he had the option to bring Arthur's remains (because he had the option to bring Lyanna's remains to Winterfell). Pray tell, if you can, what Ned's motive to do this could possibly have been. To illustrate with some imaginary dialogue: If Lyanna wasn't there, this entire problem disappears. That is, Ned buried all the corpses at the TOJ, no exceptions. And the reason he had the option to move Lyanna back to Winterfell is that she died a different place -- somewhere her remains could be treated for travel. So the above situation would never arise. In fact, she could have died at Starfall. Well, I'm more interested in GRRM's when asked about that dream: Seems like he could have said nothing, but this was his choice instead.
  15. JNR

    R+L=J v.166

    What's obvious is that this policy would be a serious issue in dealing with other families than his own. It would have been obvious to him as well, and likely would have been seen as so fundamentally unfair as to defeat his sense of personal honor. The canonical emphasis on returning the remains of highborn deceased to the proper families comes up again and again. Furthermore, we know Ned, driven by his honor, went to the extreme trouble of returning Lady Dustin's horse: That's remarkable -- more than a thousand miles of caretaking in order to get that done. But he didn't bother with the bones of her husband? Oh, dear. Now since it can't be disputed that Ned did build the cairns, that coming from his waking memory and not the dream, I think the odds are strong Ned did not know of any local silent sisters and did not believe any other means of treating the remains for travel was available (or he'd have used it). He evidently believed in the circumstances the best thing he could do for the remains was build the cairns, so that's what he did. But that also implies he simply did not have that problem to deal with in Lyanna's case. Which in turn implies that she did not die there. Well, that's just it. We don't know he treated Lyanna's body differently, because we don't know where she died. If I were forced to guess, I'd say it was the TOJ... but that's only because of the dream, which is indicted by its own surrealism as trustworthy or accurate. As for the app, what we do know is that it contains information even its creator (Ran) doesn't believe. The app's info is clearly similar to the appendices, which lack any POV, and therefore can't be assessed for accuracy, and almost certainly only reflect what is widely believed, not what is true. I think it would be fair to say it is widely believed in Westeros, since the war, that Lyanna died at the TOJ. Whether she did, we will have to wait to see.
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