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JNR

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  1. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    Well, I couldn't go that far. Ran says GRRM agreed for app info to go into the app. That's true, I'm sure. So it's not really Ran's fault if a lot of the app info will be proven completely wrong, down the road. The reason the info is wrong is simply that people in Westeros (the continent) leaped to silly conclusions and believed the wrong things. This is a thing we constantly see them doing, all through the canon, just as people on Westeros the Web site do. So for instance the app says Aerys knew where Lyanna was in the last few months of the war and he never bothered to take her hostage... never notified Robert or Ned he had her... and thus, he completely wasted the leverage he might have obtained from her. Meanwhile, he did leverage Elia in just that way to ensure the loyalty of the Dornish, and he did it at exactly the same time. Well... this may actually be what people in Westeros believe. But no serious student of the canon should believe it. It's just hilariously wrong and will be shown as such, I have no doubt.
  2. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    Well, actually, I said: Are you now claiming your app is canon? Sounds like we agree. Your app is not full of facts... it's full of beliefs. Meanwhile, as GRRM pointed out in the actual canon:
  3. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    How intriguing. You seem to imply that because he "said yea or nay," that means the information is somehow factual and beyond dispute. In that case, here are some more facts drawn from the app that are beyond dispute: • Jon is the son of Ned Stark. Thus, he cannot possibly be the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. • Aegon Targaryen, son of Rhaegar Targaryen, died at King's Landing... and he also appears in A Dance with Dragons as a character. This is a flat contradiction, as you should be well aware, and it means the app is certainly full of BS on at least one of those points, and possibly both. • Melisandre is from Asshai originally. She cannot possibly be from anywhere else. Now, really Ran. You yourself have told us you don't believe the first one or the last one. You've argued against Mel's origin being Asshai based on the same logic I would use -- that we know from Melisandre's own thoughts that she really can't be from Asshai. But there it is, in the app all the same. Just like all the other BS. Why? Well, maybe it's because the app is not full of facts. It's full of ideas believed by people in Westeros, which are frequently BS. And that's exactly why the app flatly states Jon Snow is the son of Ned Stark, just like every one of the book appendices do. So... is it possible that people believe Lyanna tilted at rings? Sure -- why not? But that wouldn't make it a fact, any more than Jon's father being Ned is a fact.
  4. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    Well, you can think what pleases you best. But she will still remain a weak candidate, because she would have been an eighth-grader who had zero training or experience jousting in tournaments. She can't be shown in canon as picking up a lance in her life -- you have to wander over to the kooky app for that idea (and the app is, we know, full of BS). She is certainly never said to have been trained by anyone, even for one day. And if she was the mystery knight, she was wearing bits and pieces of armor that were never made for her. Can we show that she ever rode a horse, once, while wearing any sort of armor -- even outside a joust, alone? No, we can't. Frankly, I don't think an eighth-grade Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne or the Mountain would stand a chance in hell under those conditions. I'd expect them all to get brutalized, just as Barristan did when he rode as a mystery knight against Duncan Targaryen. Lyanna would have stood no chance either. Even Lyanna's height is a doubtful matter. Can we show she was short enough to have been the knight? No, we can't -- we have to imagine she was short, which fans constantly do for no apparent reason. (What if she looked like Sophie Turner?) How about that peculiar booming voice? Do we know Lyanna had such a voice? No... I don't think we do. Now, I could attack any other candidate just as easily. There are really no good candidates, not based on available info. But as I said, that doesn't strengthen the case for Lyanna, who remains one more implausible possibility among many.
  5. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    Yes, I said much the same thing to someone else recently. It's hard to let go of our personal approaches to analyzing canon. And given such a huge thicket of text, so dense with symbolism and allusion and subtext and alternate possibilities, there's really no "objective" way to analyze it and cut through it to the answers we want. The best compromise is probably to think like GRRM... which is hard for those of us who have no experience of dealing with him. It's probably easiest for Parris, of all people worldwide at this point, and she's also the one who reminds us "George doesn't do obvious."
  6. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    This has no apparent connection with naming the queen of love of beauty, so where you wrote "ambiguous," I would write "logically unrelated to Harrenhal." Assumes facts not in evidence. The fan concept that Lyanna was the KotLT does not make it so, because as I pointed out before, mobthink does not create reality. And actually the case for Lyanna, despite its popularity, is rather weak. The case for other candidates also being weak -- which it invariably is -- does not make the case for Lyanna any stronger. I bet you can't demonstrate he was smiling in the first place. It's just another thing you're assuming, like the identity of the mystery knight, and it makes little sense. Rhaegar, like Lyanna, was also no fool, and he knew quite well what he was doing and how it would be seen. He understood how it would affect his marriage (badly), his daughter's concept of him (badly), his parents' concept of him (badly), the relationship between the crown and Dorne (disaster), and that it would be seen by some including his paranoid father to support conspiracy theories of a secret alliance between him, the Starks, and other major players.
  7. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    There are various ways to finish that idea. A pretty simple one would be: Unless Jon's mother made Ned promise to tell Jon the truth about his parents once Jon came of age. This would fit pretty well with: If Ned believes he's about to die, he also knows Jon will never learn a thing from him, and thus his promise to Jon's mother on that score will go unfulfilled. So he is sad. It would be something like GRRM realizing he will not finish ASOIAF, and therefore also realizing his many promises on that point to the fandom will go unfulfilled. Let's hope that day never comes, and we never get such dreams.
  8. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    The theory that GRRM risks not finishing ASOIAF, and that it would be unfortunate if he didn't, is pretty close. More abstractly, I think the theory of Heresy is that mobthink does not create reality, and consensus does not establish truth. If TWOW really is published and tells half the remaining story, I think it's going to prove Heresy correct about that. Surprising truths will emerge, and heads will explode both on Westeros the web site, and Westeros the fictional continent. But if TWOW morphs into two books, the next book only tells a quarter of the remaining story. And obviously the chance of getting such revelations will plummet, and so will the probability of GRRM finishing the series.
  9. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    You seem to see Lyanna as more empty-headed than I do, or most people would. Just to continue the parallel I began earlier, imagine that in 1996 -- before there was any Lewinsky scandal -- Bill Clinton went on national TV, pointed to Monica with a phallic object a dozen feet long, and said "You're much hotter than my wife Hillary." In this situation, are we seriously to believe Monica would be unaware of the political relevance? Or that Lyanna would be, at Harrenhal? Lyanna is after all the same girl who, when offered the "honour" of marrying the lord of the stormlands, scoffed that he had sired a bastard... and correctly predicted that Robert would continue to cheat on her or any wife after he got married, because love can't change a man's nature. So she was no fool. She understood the world around her quite well, which is why I think her smile died too, and the canonical text is spot-on. Good point. Not all dreams in these books exist as a function of the dreamer's mind.
  10. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    And here's a side point not often discussed. While it's an old dream... one he's had before... it's also a dream Ned has not had for a very long time. This means something has brought it back, inspiring Ned's dreaming mind to roll it out again and put it front and center in his thoughts. And this bothers Ned a lot.
  11. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    You're wise (I'm boldfacing the important word). The conventional R+L=J idea that Rhaegar popped a tent in his pants over Lyanna, and then lost his mind for the next year or so, is... uh... possibly incorrect. I think this interpretation is right on the money.
  12. JNR

    Heresy 228 and one over the eight

    And "all" presumably includes Lyanna's smile. It died on the spot. Close. Ned never dreamed of rose petals falling from her hand -- that is a waking, conscious memory he has when he's in the crypts with Robert: However, your larger point is that this memory is logically connected to the storm of rose petals in his TOJ dream. On that, you are undoubtedly correct. I would hazard a guess that smiles died because Rhaegar had just snubbed his wife (who would have been very pregnant with his heir, if we are to believe the World book -- but that's another subject). And instead, he had demonstrated an extraordinary interest in this girl from the north, Lyanna Stark. This would have struck the crowd of nobility as deeply problematic for many different reasons. The political consequences alone would be a smoking hot mess, roughly like Bill Clinton announcing on national TV "This girl is far hotter than my wife Hillary," and then pointing to Monica Lewinsky on camera, so everyone could see whom he meant.
  13. JNR

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    Yes, it's pretty easy to prove they can't. This is because GRRM made really basic structural decisions we're all familiar with, and D&D from the start made very different ones. Which in turn is why GRRM's prediction from 2011 came true: the show and books got further and further apart the longer the show aired. This means the series finale is the point in the show that is logically furthest removed from the books. It is definitely not GRRM's ending -- not even close. At best he might have gotten a good laugh out of it, but if the actual reaction were shock and disgust that wouldn't surprise me either.
  14. JNR

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    Nearest I know of would be this one, which is a classic case of evasion. So the highest authority on its location that I know of is the canonical ADWD map. Also, notice this bit, which though from 2000 seems remarkably topical in tone and content, only requiring an adjustment of quantity to apply to 2019: AFFC and ADWD don't seem to qualify as "his damnedest" to finish in six books. Efficiency was not in any apparent sense a goal of his; they are both thickly streaked with narrative fat, and could probably be edited down to a single coherent book without much work. If that were done, the book could be called AFFC and then Dany could actually invade Westeros in a book called A Dance with Dragons. And really, if GRRM hadn't parked Dany in Meereen, he wouldn't now be struggling to finish ASOIAF and he wouldn't be facing an increasingly dubious fandom that wonders whether he can. Nothing about his output in this century, including the sample chapters from TWOW, suggests there's much hope. Only by assuming he really wants to finish at all and will change his ways can we imagine it.
  15. JNR

    Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

    Well, I'm thinking of the story, as opposed to his lifestyle. He's probably not going to start writing on the road... but a shorter and more efficient book (like AGOT) is just faster and easier and more fun for him to write. He gets it done. That kind of efficiency also increases the probability he finishes ASOIAF if he does it with both TWOW and ADOS. I think we all agree the sample chapters from TWOW aren't promising, in the department of storytelling efficiency. I also agree efficiency is not his strength in recent books, especially in Brienne's AFFC storyline (aimless wandering) and in Dany's ADWD storyline ("Aragorn's tax policy")... but he's probably never had such a strong incentive to tighten things up as he has now. We can only wait and see. Well, Roger Zelazny wrote "Unicorn Variation" as a tribute to GRRM in this department and Roger was, like GRRM, an extremely sharp guy. But there's no doubt GRRM needs to be more of an architect at this stage than a gardener. Great architects do a splendid job with the available resources, in the available time and the available space... just as great chessmasters find a way to win even if they are a piece down in a game, and they don't waste moves making it happen. We'll see what GRRM comes up with.
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