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Luddagain

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  1. Luddagain

    TWoW - Arya Stark

    Why Tommen He is nice boy - he has done nothing to harm Arya. Nor has Myrcella. Cersai, Jaime, Joffrey but not Tommen and Myrcella.
  2. Luddagain

    Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

    I suspect that the name Wylla is a generic Stark name for the mother of bastard sons. Note that another bastard - Brandon Snow had a mother named Wylla. I also note that the name Wylla evokes the idea of a Manderly. Also I do wish people would not muddle the time lines. Jon could NOT have been conceived at Harrenhall. He is a year too young. Somewhere i have read that Ashara's child and that of Elia were of an age, he/she was about 12-18 months old when Jon was supposedly born. It is next to impossible to fudge birth dates of such young children. So if you want to believe that Brandon had a child with Ashara then fine but it is NOT Jon. My personal view is that it was Aerys who raped Ashara, that Faegon was in fact her son swapped by Elia to conceal the death of her still born child. Ashara "killed herself" not because of Ned but because of hearing how baby Aegon was murdered (possibly). It is also possible that Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara, but it does not explain the secrecy. Another possibility is that Edrik Dayne in the child of Ashara and Ned but this is unlikely as Ashara was supposedly dead by the time he was born. He is however approximately the right age to have been conceived at Starfall BEFORE Ned left. He seems to be a few months older than Sansa, whom we can assume was conceived shortly after Ned's return to Riverrun). -m We meet Ned Dayne in book 2 and he is only 12. This is roughly 12 months from the start and therefore we have Sansa about 12. However she is obviously a young 12 because by the end of DoD she is still 13. If indeed this is the case then we can Assume Ned is unaware of this relationship.
  3. Luddagain

    The Others "inside" man

    This anti stark nonsense is so bloody juvenile. Not every story had to be some weirdo teenage anti heroic cult that only appeals to 15 year old goths still coming to terms with their sexuality. yes the Stark relationship with winter is complex and they have something of a checkered past but they are NOT the proteges of the others who are obviously representation of the cold. They are th barrier to the take over. Now what do we KNOW. 1. Craster sacrifices male children to become the Others. Whether he has a choice in the matter is unclear, but as Mormant says he serves crueler gods. So here we have a person KNOWN to serve the others. Senior members of the NW and the rangers knew of this association. Now it is not clear what the religious elements are of this sacrifice to the others is but clearly there is an association 2. Repeatedly through the story we get references to"ice eyes" and these are associated with a sort of psychopathic cruelty. Sort of inhuman. Both Roose and Ramsay Bolton have these ice eyes and must be the FIRST candidates you seek for people who serve the Others. Roose has his weird obsession with leeches, and seems to have lost quite a few sons. There is something a little Craster like in his behaviour and lack of care for his sons. 3. Now SOME Starks have had this characteristic ie Brandon ice eyes and we can perhaps assume that his mother of grandmother was a Bolton. As for other possible allies of the Others it is harder to guess, although, lady Dustin, Little finger and Euron are all potential. Varys is NOT a supporter of the others. he is so bloody obviously a Targ that it should not need a comment. So too is illyrio. They are the mortal enemies of the ice people. Varys i feel is the only genuinely honest guy in Westeros. He is committed to improving the social order. He does it "for the children" and is certainly NOT in the Others camp. Pick up the clues. the REAL Varys is to be found not in his public persona but in his private rooms where unseen by others he lives the austere life of a monk.
  4. Luddagain

    The Stark sucession crisis and Arya the unlikely

    Well I have a complex theory that GRRM is telling first the story of Ragnarok and also their resurrection. I suspect that if you assume that each of the Andal houses is somehow connected to the 7 gods of the septons AND to the broad theme of ragnarok then you have a pattern. Each of the seven (or maybe nine) houses will essentially fail, to b e replaced by a bastard/cadet line set up by "wanderers" who are in some way disowned by their families, especially their fathers. Roles will change. I suspect that each of the inheritors will in some way be throw backs to the heroes in the age of legends. 1. Stormlands: The Baratheon lie is essentially dead but there are at least two male bastards. The eldest is Gendry, who was not even recognised by his father, a neglected bastard in every sense. He is however a noble character and has been a wanderer. Robert was essentially a Thor character , king of the storm lands wielding a war hammer, a womamiser and heavy drinker. The stormlands may have taken the role of "the father," but the recreated line will be via gendry "the smith." i suspect we may find that Gendy's mother is somehow a descendant of Argilac or Eleni. 2. The westerlands represent the "warrior" and probably Tyr/Tue in nordic (Andal) mythology. There are THREE candidates who might potentially fit the pattern, jaime, tyrion and Podrick (who I suspect is tyrion's son). Tyrion seems pretty much a reincarnation of Lan the clever. Tyrion was a bastard in his father's eyes. 3. The Vale. The Arryn House seems essentially dead, only the feeble Robin can save it and he probably is not an Arryn anyway. Harry the heir is possible but i also think perhaps Timmett son of Timmett, given that convoluted story of an abducted girl. However sweet robin may ride on a falcon as the winged knight returned. 4. Dorne: Now weird though it may seem i think Arya is going to end up Queen of Dorne. there was a reason she called her wolf Nymeria. She will marry in succession Trystan Martell, some old codger and then Edrik Dayne, just as did Nymeria the first 5. The reach; The line of the original Gardiners is already dead sort of, but lives on in the Florents. Now there is a character we know well who is hated and disowned by his father but who is in fact already third in line legally for the rule of the Reach. Sure he has taken an oath but he could still be a steward of the reach. Sam seems in many ways to be a reincarnation of Garth Greenhand. 6. The iron Islands. Theon is a bastard in HIS father's eyes because he is a Greenlander and in a weird sort of way chose Ned as his father not Balon. This one is a bit of a stretch I agree. 7. The North. obviously Jon Snow the public bastard, although potentially Bran the Builder could also take over. That really only leaves the complex and utterly confusing Riverlands. Bran. Rickon or Sansa may well inherit these, Arya has Dorne. Potentially Bran could inherit the Riverlands, Sansa still married to Tyrion has the Westerlands. Assuming that Bran has no children, Rickon could take the Riverlands after Bran
  5. Luddagain

    Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

    I think we need always to sort out what is fact, what is rumour and what is the limited understanding of a child. Now Ned Dayne thinks that Ashara and Ned Stark were in love, and that must be the general opinion of his family. Now clearly the Daynes respect Ned because they CHOSE to call their boy Edrik aka Ned ie a name from the north and in the Stark tradition and with the SAME shortening. I think that from this we can deduce that whatever was between Bed and Ashara it was not dishonourable or at least not with intent. There are plenty of other names to choose for the Dayne heir yet they chose Ned. The young Ned wanted to speak with Ned Stark but was too shy, however he clearly respected him. Now this does not mean that Ned was bonking Ashara but clearly there was a close friendship. Now the second idea is that Ned was bonking Wylla the maid. However since the INTENT of the Wylla story was to protect the true identity of Jon, the Ned/Wylla story was almost certainly put about as a cover. Edrik Dayne believed it because that is what he had been told. He cannot have witnessed it since he is too young. Now I am perfectly prepared to believe that their IS a child between Ned and Ashara, but it is not easy to see just who such a child would be. In my opinion Jon is the MOST likely BUT that would not explain why his identity was kept secret from Robert. So I am torn. Jon being the son of Arthur and Lyanna is an attractive idea, but it really would be very poor writing by GRRM to introduce such a relationship without any prior warning or build up. So for Jon the only ideas we have any hints for is Ashara/Ned (he is too young to be the son of Brandon), Lyanna/Rhaegar, Aerys or maybe Mance (Bael the bard story).
  6. Luddagain

    Girlfriend, mistress, paramour and concubine

    These are all old, old terms but in common use in English at least in novels. They certainly have meanings that are different and in no sense are they boyfriend/girlfriend. As noted a concubine is a women kept usually in a harem but she is one of many other women kept by the master. She is subservient at all times and is usually of inferior social status. In English it is a term usually used in reference to eastern kings, rich merchants and emperors. She certainly can have no other lovers. A mistress is the term used for any long term relationship, other than marriage although mistress ONCE also just meant the lady of the house, wife mother, owner etc. we use the term head mistress for the head teacher of a school who happens to be female. However in the context of sexual relationships, the term usually implies that there is a financial relationship, where the man usually keeps the woman and pays for her expenses. The reverse term ie for a man dependent on a woman is gigolo. Paramour as above but as also noted earlier it implies equality in the relationship. The woman or man is independent and they do not set up house together usually. In the sort of society GRRM is describing there just were not girlfriends and boyfriends. Sex before marriage was not permitted and dates as we know them did not happen. However the term used for a young man keen on on a girl would be a suitor and if the relationship was stronger then he would be courting ie the young man was chasing the girl and they might say a courting couple if both were keen.
  7. Luddagain

    Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

    I think in the book there are some witnesses that we can believe although we recognise that they may sometimes be fooled or have insufficient information. Barristan is one of those. He loved Ashara and therefore had no reason to be lying or pretending about Ashara having a child. indeed he spoke of it in a fairly matter of fact sort of way, as if the entire court knew of Ashara's situation. He is clear about the birth of a baby. He believes the girl to have been still born BUT, that is exactly the sort of information that a MAN may not know - only the midwives in the room would really know what happened and even the mother might not know. So the public story is that Ashara's girl died but she could have been a he, the baby may have been smuggled away for safety or even as one theory has it, was switched for Alia's dead baby. However as to her pregnancy Barristan spoke as if it was accepted common knowledge. As for being dishonoured then yes she was since she was unmarried and pregnant, but of course being Dornish this is not such an issue as for most others in the seven kingdoms. the term dishonoured does not necessarily imply rape, but simply the act of 'deflowering" a virgin girl, whether willing or not. read some Regency romantic novels and you will get the picture. Then there is the issue of who did the dishonoring. I do accept that i made quite a few assumptions about the who. But first let us just accept that she WAS pregnant and that Barristan had some sort of reason to assume she "turned to stark." I accept that it is quite possible that one of the Starks left her pregnant but i think that GRRM's deliberate ambiguity probably indicates that it was NOT a stark that did the dishonoring. Moreover, while Brandon is a possible father to her child, it seems hard to believe that he would not have married her - the most beautiful girl around and very eligible. In the case of Ned even more so. there is NOWAY that an 18 year old Ned would not have married Ashara if he impregnated her at Harrenhall. Arthur Dayne is set up as a role model - he would not be into incest. He is a foil for Jaime. GRRM is a good writer so I think the father will be someone important in the story - not some unknown young knight etc. So of those remaining i just think Aerys the MOST likely, because should she have fallen for the others she would not really have needed "help". Bastards were common enough. she would have returned home where the child would be cared for or fostered out. She would have then married - not as great a marriage as she might have aspired to but some rich aging widower would have taken her on. She would however need to flee Aerys just to protect herself and the child. possibly also she would be afraid if Rhaegar was the father - more because of aerys than Rhaegar. As for where she went, after the Harrenhall incident, well it is assumed that she continued on as lady in waiting to Elia, for some months - a pregnancy can be concealed for 3- 6 months quite easily. After that then the inner court might know the secret, but essentially only those close to Elia would be in a position to see her much. After all Elia was also pregnant, so the two ladies had a good excuse not to parade about too much. Obviously I am NOT thinking any starks were complicit. i am suggesting that because starks helped her escape. mad King areys had the elder two murdered. I think you have not fully considered time lines. OK we know that Aegon was born about the same time as Ashara's baby, around about 18 months before the events of the ToJ and 6 months before the start of the war. So after the birth of the baby there were 4-6 months for Ashara to flee before the war began. perhaps if Aerys started pestering her again she chose to flee. She may have turned to a Stark - Brandon, Benjen Ned or Lyanna.
  8. Luddagain

    Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

    KbF 1. Pretty much yes to your questions. Now we know that Ashara was "dishonoured" at Harrenall and she had a child. Barristan is a reliable witness to that fact. However no where in the text does it suggest it was a Stark who dishonoured her, only that in her trouble she turned to a Stark. So SOMEONE dishonoured her. So assuming it was a character we know of at Harrenhall we have: Aerys, Raegar, Barristan, Arthur Dayne, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, Robb one of the Freys, Howland Reed . Now leaving out a stark (because of the deliberate ambiguity of GRRM's words, Arthur, and assuming the freys are not sufficiently important and assuming Barristan is noble, we are left with Robert, Rhaegar or Aerys. I read the text as a Stark helping Ashara ESCAPE her attacker. I think that it was Aerys who raped Ashara. The child probably lived and would be roughly the same age as Aegon. Since her pregnancy was well known it may be assumed that she did not immediately flee but returned to court. However afterwards, ashara would have been in mortal fear of mad aerys, whom we know to have mistreated Rhaella, so presumably he would be biting and injuring Ashara. So if it was indeed Aerys, then the Starks helped Ashara ESCAPE his clutches. They perhaps were ALL involved and it may be the real reason that Aerys had Brandon and Rickard killed. So yes I think Ashara was possibly hiding out somewhere first (with Lyanna and Benjen, then with Ned) calling herself Wylla). It was Aerys who kidnapped Lyanna while seeking Ashara. When the war happened Ashara/ wylla was in the boat pretending to be the fisherman's daughter. 2. Cat is not so much lying as misremembering. We know Brandon liked taking maidenheads so why not that of Catelyn. She was pretty much an innocent but there did not seem to be any sort of chaperoning of the Tully girls. It was a pretty short space of time between the death of her fiancée and marriage to his brother. It is even possible that Catelyn was not aware she was pregnant, but her DAD was because he had been alerted to the Lyssa problem. 3. In fact we have heard HEAPS about it if indirectly. The Mormant girls take multiple partners and their children are legitimate. Tormund seems to have several wives. The Targs have several wives as does Craster. it is ONLY the religion of the seven that imposed monogamy, and the starks do not believes in that god. 4 is simply deduction. We know that Dany is a Targ but we also know that she looks like Ashara. so the possible pairings are aerys/Ashara, Rhaegar/ashara, Rhaella/arthur. Of the three I think Rhaella and Arthur the most likely. The trouble is that there is NOTHING in the text for any of the other theories. Read the Barriston words carefully. There is NO suggestion that it was a stark who dishonoured Ashara.
  9. Luddagain

    Poll: Is Jon Snow the son of a Dayne?

    Yes 1. Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara. He is the LEGITIMATE son, since I suspect the Daynes also worship the old gods and they were married under a weirwood, although a travelling Septon may also have been involved. My theory is that they were married, just as Ned headed off to war after Brandon died. Ashara is also the fisherman's daughter, and Willa. 2. Robb is the son of Brandon and Catelyn. he was conceived just before Brandon went riding off to chase Rhaegar, thus is about 4-8 weeks older than Jon. I believe that Ned believed Ashara was dead -ie the fisherman died and therefore did his duty by Catelyn. 3. Depending on whether Ashara is alive or not all the other Starks are bastards BUT it is more than possible that under the laws of the old gods, polygamy is acceptable so if Ned persuaded Catelyn to have both a Septon wedding and a Northern weding 9which I think he would have, then possibly they are all legitimate. 4. I think it probable that Dany is the daughter of Rhaella and Arthur Dayne. We know she reminds Barriston of Ashara. 5. Now who was Lyanna's child. I am going to pose a super way out theory here. Gendry is Lyanna's boy via Robert. I think if it was Robert who in fact raped lyanna it would explain his mental collapse and essentially his total failure as a King. I doubt that Ned would know and possibly even Robert did not know a child was born. Gendry's age is about right. He is 14 when we first meet him at a time when Jon is just 15. So if Robert DID catch up with Rhaegar and Lyanna say 4-6 months into the war, then the timelines all work.
  10. Luddagain

    Moments of Foreshadowing v.12

    i have been doing a re-read and just discovered a very bitter sweet moment of foreshadowing. When old Nan is telling Bran the tale of the others there is a knock at the door Bran is scared and afraid but it is only Luwin with Hodor LOOMING are at the door. Now that I am aware that GRRM is an expert in Norse mythology it is clear that this foreshadows the story of Hodor killing Baldur (Bran). In mythology it is HODR who is King of Winter. He accidentally kills Bran after a bit of trickery. It has been obvious from the beginning that Bran is King of Summer (his wolf has that name), which was given only AFTER he chose to live after realising he must defeat whatever is in the heart of Winter.. On the bright side, both Hodr and Baldur emerge after Ragnarok to live together. Perhaps they will swap bodies (or share it).
  11. Luddagain

    Most precise ASOIAF timeline v.3

    I think you can probably leave Sansa's birthday given that when we see her last she is still 13 and a heck of a lot has happened to her after she turned 13 - cancelled wedding, wedding to Tyrion, Red wedding, Purple wedding, travel to the Fingers, Lysa's wedding, travel to the Eyrie, Lysa's death, travel down the mountain etc indeed you can sort of get a handle on the kid's ages - Bran and Jon have namedays white close ie bran turns 8 while in a coma so fairly close to jon's nameday turning 15. Let us say he was 7 yrs 9 months when we meet him. If we sort of assume there is 20 -24 months between Bran and Arya and the same for Sansa and Arya, we get Arya 9 years 5 months and Sansa 11 ys 1 month
  12. Luddagain

    Most precise ASOIAF timeline v.3

    I am going back to the beginning with a few suggestions 1. You could move Dany forward a month or so, just so the prologue comes first. it would not affect the time lines because there is a lot of "fat' in her arc. Re Jon's/Robb's birth dates. You are trying to do the impossible and reconcile an obvious conflict. The problem is that we are told that Robb is several months older than Jon. It is fairly irrelvant as to the actual dates because the kids themselves believe Robb to be the elder and hence he celebrates his name day first. This basically means his birthday was probably in the sixth month - while bran lay sick perhaps after Catelyn left. If this conflicts with other timelines so be it. Namedays ie birthdays are exactly the sort of thing kids remember so it is not something to assume is incorrect. GRRM may have made a mistake either with the ages of the two, or the date of Cat's marriage, or a name day is not a birthday but rather a day celebrating the actual name ie Jon's day robb's day. There is of course the more obvious possibility - Robb was conceived two months before the wedding!!!!!
  13. Someone may have already posted this, but I assume Longbough is is the same manner as Longwaters ie the descendent legitimately of someone called Bough. I wonder whether when their were smaller kingdoms bastards took other names. I suspect that bastards called Bough might come from one of the families associated with trees. Oakheart, Fossoway, Blackwood, Greenwood etc.
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