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McBaine

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  1. That would be telling^^ But yes, it's been a while. I agree that it would fit in a theme sense. You make good points for the theme, but what makes me doubt it is that the only real reference to binding/control is Melisandre's word when she tries to manipulate Jon and it is never mentioned afterwards again. In the best shot at the real information - her POV chapter - she isn't worrying if the control will work, she is only concerned about the glamor and relies on the hostage for control, not a ruby. As long as we don't know more, I am reluctant to believe a control component is there, even if it would fit thematically, when everything can happen and be explained without such supernatural coercion from the rubies. As for the master/slave ruby: Maybe it is my IT background, but I always read this in the technology sense (and maybe GRRM does too, he wrote sci-fi most of the time), so while a control theme is certainly there, I mostly saw it as the indication from what the energy comes and where it goes (the master ruby sends the magic/glamor, and the slave ruby receives it and glamors what it is attached to). In this instance Melisandre's ruby controls the other ruby and the glamor, but I never thought it would do more than that, especially control the person. BTW I am not saying the glamor is technology, I'm just saying that I thought more along these lines when Melisandre mentioned the master/slave aspects of the ruby. The master device controls the slave device, but not the user. (No one can mind control you if you receive an email on your computer, and your CD, made from the master copy will not brainwash you if you listen to it - the master ruby controls the glamors on the salve rubies (but the slave rubies can't control Melisandre's glamor), but can't control Mance, Rattleshirt or Lightbringer - let alone Stannis) Thanks, I'll look it up.
  2. Stannis did not definately decide for one or the other, but was struggling with making a decision. Had he made the decision, Edric would already have been on fire. Davos feared Stannis would go through with it when he learns of Joffrey's death and indeed, Stannis hinted at it. When the time came and Davos brought the news of the Purple Wedding, Stannis again threatens Melisandre with death if she is wrong, but it is then revealed, that Davos already smuggled the boy away. This was not only about the kingdom, nor was it an easy decision, since Stannis believed the could save many. Stannis tries to win the throne because he belives it is his right as well as his duty, and with that duty comes saving people. Stannis was contemplating the sacrifice, because he learned of the White Walkers, and when he before could not imagine burning Edric, with the threat of demonic entities and millions at risk, he was struggling. Still angry and threatening Mel with torture and death if she is wrong, but with the new perspective of the real enemy and so many lives at stake, Stannis might have changed his mind. It is the thought experiment of the trolley problem. Save one or save many. Stannis was on the fence, but certainly leaned towards saving the many. Davos then showed him the letter and Stannis opted to not decapitate him, but instead let it go and save the people on the Wall. If that is not Davos changing Stannis' mind, I don't know what is. If Stannis disagreed, he could have beheaded Davos and then save the people. Later we learn what Davos said: To your other points: What is your evidence for this? Or that there is even anything to affect anyone (apart from the glamor)? He decided after having information. It was not easily done and not without strong resistance and threats from Stannis. It was the argument of saving many in exchange for the boy (trolley problem) and not some mind presuure, at least not some supernatural one. You already pointed two instances out were he ignored Mel and did not what she wanted. Again, what is your evidence? We only know that she felt pain when Rattleshirt was burnt. But she also feels pain when she has visions from the fire and while using other magic:
  3. What am I ignoring about this? It is just not important. Stannis was on the fence and might even have done it. So? Him changing his mind while listening to counsel from Davos and Melisandre. While he at first is against it and offended someone would suggest it and in the end agreed Davos was right to spirit him away there was the in between were he seriously struggled with the decision, because Mel said it was the only way to defeat the Other and the cold dead things. Even then, Stannis is not easily susceptible to Mel's reasons of visions and a supernatural threat. He threatens her to kill her slowly and painfully if she lies ("You'll die by inches") and gets really angry with her on more than one occasion. What is puzzling for me is that this should be more than Mel trying to manipulate Stannis by normal means. I see no hint or evidence about "mind pressure" there. I see Davos and Mel fighting with words and Stannis struggling with his moral compass while both appeal to him. Meanwhile many hints are dropped that "Rattleshirt" is not Rattleshirt. Mance is taunting Jon, asks how he likes his ruby. These hints foreshadow the glamor, but nowhere is a hint to mind pressure to be found. No, my point is that Mel says being bound by blood and soul as a ruse to convince Jon to trust "Rattleshirt". That is the main scheme - it just conveniently also explains the ruby that otherwise might have led to questions. Does Stannis know? Stannis is a doubter, and noticed that while it glows prettily, there is no difference to common steel. I would not equate this to the sure knowledge of and what a glamor is. He just heard that "Rattleshirt" is bound because he wears the ruby. He does not wear a ruby. His sword does. Let "Lightbringer" be bound to Mel blood and soul all day. It doesn't affect Stannis. And Stannis knows it doesn't affect him: He ignored Mel's wishes whenever he wants. What is contradictory in my conclusion? Stannis is not fickle, but he can change his mind given good counsel. He listens to Davos despite his low birth, values expertise above political station. You know who might have had a hand in changing Stannis' mind after hearing rumors that Stannis considered to give Rattleshirt lands and castles? It was Jon. If Mel instead suggested "Rattleshirt" would be a good candidate to help Jon, but not the Magnar (who was not noted as treacherous by Jon to Stannis), and backed it up with good reasons, why shouldn't Stannis reconsider? @chrisdaw It can certainly be read in different ways. Not sure if GRRM intended it to be this way, but this is in my opinion neither a point for, nor against the theory that Stannis knew.
  4. Well, that is the changing his mind part. He can have changed his mind without knowing the "Rattleshirt" situation. Mel knows the truth and could have given him council to convince him of "Rattleshirt" for her scheming. Mel claims exactly that: Bound to her, blood and soul. If that doesn't suggest or outright means at least reasonably good control or loyalty I don't know. What would the point be otherwise if it is used as a reason for his faithful service? Meanwhile we know from her chapter, that she thinks of no such bond. She thinks about not having seen harm for her in the flames, and therefore not fearing Mance and his knife. She also speaks of holding Mance's child hostage. The "bound by blood and soul" is a lie she told Jon (and maybe Stannis) to convince him to trust "Rattleshirt". Nothing else. That you build your whole theory about ruby focused mental pressure on this once uttered line by Mel in a situation were she has all the reason to manipulate and lie and then never thinking or speaking of it again, makes it a huge stretch in my opinion. The magic of the ruby does that - the magic of the ruby that glamors. It is a physical sensation. Mel mentions that when Rattleshirt burned, her ruby got so hot while holding the glamor, that it nearly burned her throat because of the connection to the one that disguised Rattleshirt. Again I see no evidence of mental pressure. The burning and itching doesn't prove that there is mental pressure, the magic of the red god has side effects, but they can come from glamoring. Mance also got rid of the Bones because they annoyed him, so contemplating getting rid of a ruby that is not only heavy and cumbersome but also is physically ithcing and burning, sometimes feeling like a kiss, sometimes like fire. The true part was that Mel thinks she can control Mance (by having his son as a hostage). If we ignore Mel's line to Jon about binding "Rattleshirt" blood and soul through the ruby, what other line is there that mentions that even remotely? Mel needs to explain why she gifted "Rattleshirt" a valuable gem without being suspicious (or the ruse might be discovered). She also wants to convince Jon that he can trust "Rattleshirt". Two birds, one stone, and a lie about the "control ruby", or "loyalty ruby" or "mind pressure ruby" is born. I find that at least way more likely than the ruby actually doing anything else but glamoring to what it is attached.
  5. Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I don't think so. Most of your quotes I interpret completely differently. Some I think I can even debunk. I don't think Stannis was in on it and Melisandre went behind his back. You take the word of Melisandre, who in this very moment tries to convince Jon to trust "Rattleshirt", as the pure truth and I don't know why. Mel is a lying liar who lies. We know pretty much exactly what those rubies do: they glamor. They glamor Mance to appear as Rattleshirt, Mel to appear as young and Lightbringer to appear as glowing. And now, that Jon openly says that you can't trust Rattleshirt, Mel tries to convince him and reveals, that these rubies... well, they bind the untrustworthy Rattleshirt to her and he can now be trusted? That seems awfully conveniant and more than a bit shady. In this moment, in this situation, the words of Mel to what her rubies do mean less than nothing. Stannis changed his mind and was convinced that it is fine that Rattleshirt goes with Jon (a feat that is completely acomplishable without magic - Stannis listens to advice, he was listening to Davos and changed his mind without any rubies involved and Mel also needs no ruby). If he buys Melisandre's tale of the binding ruby, why would there be a need to know that "Rattleshirt" is Mance in disguise? I don't think this backs anything of the sort. Again you point out that Mel is shown not being able to convince Stannis of something with the ruby (with a 100% failure rate, 2 out of 2 times it doesn't work) and take it as prove that 1. The ruby does exactly what Mel claims it does (when we know that the only proven power is glamor) and can control people - a thing that is at least not reliable in Stannis' case even if it were true. 2. That somehow that must mean that Stannis knew about the swap because we didn't see her using the allegedly mind controlling ruby to convince Stannis to swap Mance with Rattleshirt. This is quite the reach. I stay unconvinced that Stannis knew about the swap. It seems way more believable to me that Stannis was adamant about burning Mance and when Mel couldn't convince him, she went behind his back and did what she knew best. She might have tricked Stannis as well as Jon. Her gifts are mostly trickery and illusions - I bet half the stuff Stannis saw in the fire might be a trick of Mel to get him to do what she wanted. When Mance (glamored as Rattleshirt) visits Melisandre in her chambers, he plays with a knife. These are not the thoughts of a woman who has someone bound by blood and soul. She doesn't think of the ruby, or if it might work or fail, she is feeling save because she had no vision of harm. Mance is not bound or hindered by the ruby at all. Mel was lying to Jon Snow (and maybe Stannis) about the ruby making "Rattleshirt" loyal. Melisandre ponders this in the talk with Mance. Was SHE wrong to spare him? Doesn't seem like Stannis had anything to do with it. When Melisandre lets the glamor melt away, Mance says that Melisandre was the one to save him with the glamor and that Stannis would have burned him. Faced with glamor or fiery death, Mance chose the glamor. I don't think they told Stannis. And here, Melisandre doesn't even try to sell Jon on the bound by blood and soul thing through the ruby. She tells him what really holds Mance's loyalty - a simple hostage. There is no sorcery that influences and compels, no magic blood oath or anything like that - just lies and a ruby that glamors. Not from Stannis. From Melisandre. Stannis was probably tricked like everybody else.
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