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SFDanny

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  1. As an aspiring completist of all things Elio and Linda, and of course that Martin fellow, I'm in. I loved Fire & Blood and will happily buy this new book for the artwork alone even if there is nothing else new.
  2. Lyanna is a girl of fourteen to sixteen years old when the events from the time of the Harrenhal tourney to her likely death at the Tower of Joy. She is member of an aristocratic family in which her role is rigidly defined. Yet the Lyanna we know is a young woman who rebels against that role time and time again. Think of her battle with the squires over their treatment of Howland Reed, the possibility she rides in the tourney as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and her remarks about Robert's nature to Ned. Which is also consistent with the "wild" northern girl who rides like a centaur and trains in skills decidedly not approved by her father or much of Westerosi society. This is a portrait of a young woman fighting for her own way in her world, not just a tool of others. I call that "agency." That is even more so if, as I think is likely, Lyanna herself plays a role in her "kidnapping" or escape from an impending marriage to a man she wants no part of.
  3. While I think I agree with most of this, I think it is also worth taking a closer look at the usage of the word "kidnapping" in the Westerosi context. "Theft" might be the more appropriate term when used concerning Rhaegar's actions. Combined with "rebellion" by Lyanna and I think we get closer to the cause of the outrage that follows Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together. It not really a question of whether or not Lyanna is a victim in most people's eyes, but rather the damage done to her House, by both Lyanna and Rhaegar that is in question. The damage done to Lord Rickard's "rights," and Aerys's rights as well. Nor does Lyanna's age really much enter into it. We see many marriages by children younger than she was and no one bats an eye at them. Btw we don't know her age when the "kidnapping" takes place. Children become adults at sixteen, but they are not really free to marry whomever they wish afterwards. Perhaps in a strictly legal sense, but in every other way the custom dictates children follow the dictates of their fathers. The repercussion of not following those dictates range from Tyrion and Tysha's example at the worst, to fatherly acceptance depending on the individuals.
  4. I've always considered the real reason Rhaenyra is not considered a Queen is simply that the politics of Westeros after the Dance was such that many of the Lords of the Realm's views on female monarchs didn't permit her inclusion as a monarch because of the rather important precedent it would set. Most of the male nobility don't want their preference for male inheritors of their power and prerogatives messed with. Can't have those scary women upsetting the "natural" order of things. Damn the reality that Rhaenyra was crowned and ruled from the Iron Throne. She can give birth to monarchs, but she can't be counted as one in her own right, or things might get out of control. Rhaenyra's descendants acquiesce to her posthumous slight is in exchange for real power.
  5. I've a question to the "completists" out there. Does anyone have a complete list of all the non-Martin story collections in which his short stories, novellas, etc. have been published? I'm particularly interested in the English language publications. The bibliography in Dreamsongs Vol.II is helpful as far as it goes, but I keep finding new anthologies that have Martin stories included in them that are not referenced there. Part of that is simply because of the publication date of Dreamsongs, but instead of trying to recreate that list myself it would be helpful to know if there is a easily accessible place for such information. Thanks Found it. All the information I needed is here
  6. You wanted a short answer, so I gave you mine. Want a discussion on the topic? Probably better to start a new thread or revive an old one than do it here.
  7. He should go to the Happy Port in Braavos. It's near the Ragman's harbor, and is just across from the Mummer's Ship. Ask for the Sailor's Wife or her daughter Lanna. Your mate might not make it out alive, but he will have his question answered.
  8. You're right that most of this is pure speculation, and as such we shouldn't put to much stock in believing one way or another. One thing we do know is that Yoren left the Wall long before Jon takes his vows. So he can't be the source of any news to Ned that Jon is a member of the Night's Watch. I don't think we have any evidence that Ned knows that fact before he dies. Which would make it extremely unlikely that his regret is because he knows he should have told him something before Jon takes his vows. Perhaps, his knowledge that Benjen is not there to stop Jon from doing so is a factor. I'd say his regrets around Jon most likely have to do with not having an opportunity to tell Jon who his mother was, and not knowing if Benjen will ever return to tell Jon in his stead. Again, the latter is based on my guess that Benjen knows that secret. That would be a reason to write a letter to Jon, but obviously the information in it might not be something he would want Varys to read. That's especially true if Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Perhaps a message for Jon to seek out Howland Reed? Another guess. We obviously need more evidence here.
  9. Perhaps, but we don't even know if it was the plan to allow Jon to actually take the vows. Ned needed to get Jon out of Winterfell and away from the antagonism with Catelyn, and to someone he trusted as far away as he can from King's Landing. Being at the Wall with Benjen might just have been a temporary solution. Such a interpretation would mean Benjen is in on the plan. Unfortunately, Benjen goes missing, and Ned doesn't find out about until Yoren arrives in King's Landing. Or Ned just placed Jon's safety over any ephemeral claims he might have had to the Iron Throne. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have told Jon before he joins the Night's Watch, but just that he doesn't have any belief that there is a chance Jon could ever sit the Iron Throne. His promise most likely was to just keep him safe at all cost. Something we will have to wait and see if it is ever answered. One reason I think we just might see Benjen again.
  10. I would disagree. I think the larger lesson is that all perspectives and all accounts of events should be evaluated for strengths, weaknesses, and bias. What Martin has done in the very structure of his novels is to give us different perspectives to view reality. If you have ever had the pleasure of seeing the classic film Rashōmon by Akira Kurosawa then you have a guide as to how to handle what is "true" and is to be "trusted." So, for instance, when we read Ned's innermost thoughts we should note that, unless Ned is delusional, those thoughts reflect his point of view of reality. Not reality itself. It is for the reader to judge what his bias does to how reality is interpreted. Yes, second hand accounts lack the perspective of someone who was on the scene. That does not mean they have no value. When we read Viserys's point of view, as told through the filter of Daenerys's memories, we need to note that Viserys was not present at the Trident, for instance, but it is very important to also note that he is likely to have been told his stories by other Targaryen partisans, including Rhaella and Ser Willem, who may well have reason to know things Viserys doesn't . The bias is important, but the stories are as well. If nothing else, Viserys's stories to his sister tell us what is likely the loyalist's view of history. Given that we get the rebel's view of history through almost everyone else's point of view it is extremely important not to just dismiss what Viserys says. So, yes, Viserys doesn't show a knowledge of the differences between Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister on the day of the sack of King's Landing, but his view, as told through Daenerys's perspective, of Rhaegar "dying for the woman he loved" tells important information that we don't get from all the rebel view points. The Targaryen story speaks of love, not of rape, brutality, and abduction in Rhaegar's motives and actions toward Lyanna. We would be foolish to dismiss that view for bias, just to accept the other biased viewpoints as told by Robert, Ned, and others. The lesson, it seems to me, is to evaluate all the evidence as distorted by perspective to some degree, and not assume bias from only one point of view.
  11. Ned was absolutely there during the sack of King's Landing. He confronts Jaime in the Red Keep as he sits upon the Iron Throne during the sack. Ned's troops come late to the sack, but they, and he, are there while it is still ongoing. So, no, not total bullshit. That the Targaryens don't make much of any differentiation between the Lannister's and the Stark's role in the sack is a important nuance in the reader's eyes, but not so much in the eyes of loyalists. Both armies were in the city and involved in the overthrow of Targaryen rule. It's not surprising that in Viserys's view they are both responsible for Aerys's death. Why should it matter to loyalists what the command structure was during the sack as long as they both were there, they both were responsible. After all, who ends up controlling the Iron Throne on that day? Stark troops do, with Ned Stark leading their way into that seat of royal power. Jaime surrenders it to them without a struggle.
  12. Well, I'm glad you think it makes logical sense, because that was what I was trying to communicate. But henceforth I will try to make my arguments with a greater sense of élan, style, and panache in order to avoid that "falls flat" feeling you reference. I'm hoping words like "henceforth," "élan," and "panache" help in that regard. Let me know if they do. I understand your assertion that is so, but asserting it as fact does not make it so. Here we are talking about a particular dream while Ned is in the black cells, and there is no reference in the dream to Lyanna. You make the leap it is about Lyanna, and I do not. I think there is a different possible source, or sources, for this dream's connection fo "broken promises" and "blood" than to Lyanna. In fact the reference to "broken promises" I've shown to be in contradiction to what we know of the promises Ned made to Lyanna on her deathbed. Ned Stark led a very bloody life. Blood shed in the rebellion by his siblings, Father, friends, bannermen, and many others. That Ned might have dreams of blood related to something or someone else than Lyanna would not be surprising in the least. Or shouldn't be. Even the much mentioned dream of the events at the Tower of Joy involves more people shedding their life's blood than Lyanna. I would expect the deaths of the men betrayed by Littlefinger in the Throne Room of the Red Keep would be a cause for haunting memories and dreams for Lord Stark. It was his trust in the broken promises of Petyr Baelish around the loyalty of the City Watch that caused those deaths, and which puts Ned in the Black Cells. This is the scene in which Littlefinger tells Ned he will secure the loyalty of the City Watch. One could call that a promise by Littlefinger to Ned. And then we have the scene in the Throne Room itself. We then witness the betrayal and subsequent murder of Ned's men. First, Tomard, then Varly, and then Cayn. As the others are killed Littlefinger holds Ned's dagger under his chin and says, I would say that shows the elements of both "broken promises" and "blood." When you cite the reference Ned makes of his dreams of broken promises and blood you fail to provide a link with Lyanna. Indeed there is no reference to her in those dreams. No Lyanna mentioned in relation to those dreams. Days, maybe weeks, later Ned has a dream in the Black Cells that does reference Lyanna and blood, but not any broken promises. Actually I would suggest, as I did above, that it is about events that are plainly laid out in the books, not some hidden reasons outside the knowledge of the readers. I think I've already stated as much. We agree this is not the likely cause of the broken promises Ned alludes to. Again we agree this is a unlikely source of Ned's dreams of broken promises. Ned is disturbed in his cell when thinking of Jon, but it doesn't seem to be about promises already broken. Ned would like to talk to Jon and tell him something, and that is a possible source of future broken promises if he is unable to do so. But not ones already broken. It is absolutely NOT the "only takeaway." I've given you a entirely plausible explanation and there are others as well. Others that have nothing to do with Ned's promises to Lyanna. Let me know when you come up with any evidence that suggests Ned broke his promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying.
  13. Given the fact I've provided a quote that directly contradicts your claim, and you have nothing that backs your conclusion, I think my argument is a rather solid one. Defensible as well. On that much we agree. Post hoc ergo propter hoc? Please don't mistake me here. Time sequence is important in most things. It shows context, or at least can show context, but if we make the mistake of believing that one event following the other means causality, then we fall into a fallacy. Which is why I stated my theory of the cause of Ned's dream here in the form of a guess. The context of Littlefinger's betrayal and broken promises to Ned and Catelyn combined with the massacre in the Throne Room is certainly an important part of the context of Ned's situation when he has the dream in question. I recognize that does not prove causality any more than your theory does. The problem with your theory is simply this: We know that on the day of Jaime's ambush of Ned and his men, that Ned quite clearly states he kept his promises to Lyanna that he made to her as she lay dying. If we accept that as fact, then we have to ask ourselves what has changed between that day and the one in which this new dream takes place that would have meant that one or more of those promises was broken? If we think one of the promises made to Lyanna was to bury her in the crypts of Winterfell alongside Rickard and Brandon, then nothing has changed to mean that promise is now broken. Nor is it in serious jeopardy of being broken. Nor has Jon's situation appreciably changed between the ambush and this dream. So, I think we can rule out that Ned thinks he failed Lyanna in the situation he left Jon as of the day of the ambush. However, I would concede that the death of Robert, and the triumph of the Lannisters, has seriously changed Ned's ability to continue to protect Jon, as well as all the other living members of his family. But then we are not talking about broken promises in the past tense. We are talking about a fear for the future that may mean Ned is unable to continue keeping his promises to Lyanna or anyone else. Which I didn't do. I suggested in my guess that both the mention of broken promises, and of blood, stem from the same event - the massacre in the Throne Room. In which both blood and broken promises are prominently involved. I don't dispute that Ned is haunted in his dreams about the promises he made to his dying sister. The dream of the encounter at the Tower of Joy is proof of that. I just don't think this particular reference to broken promises and blood has anything to do with Lyanna's deathbed pleas to Ned for him to promise her something.
  14. Where now does this reference Lyanna, or the promises Ned made to her? I'm fairly certain Ned has made promises to more people than Lyanna, and I'm fairly certain more people than Ned have broken promises. Some likely they made to him. Although this particular reference doesn't say who made the promise and who broke it, anymore does it explain if the "disturbing dreams of blood" are actually about a broken promise. Now, if I were a betting man, which I seldom do beside an occasional lottery ticket, I'd bet this has something to do with the context we find Ned in when he has these dreams. We can't be certain, but I would guess the broken promise of Littlefinger and his betrayal that led to the bloody deaths of most of Lord's Starks men right before his eyes, and then puts Ned in the Black Cells making him unable to protect his children all weighs heavily on his thoughts. But that just is my guess. An educated and in context guess, but a guess nonetheless. What isn't a guess is that we don't have any evidence that point to this as showing any doubt that Ned kept his promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying.
  15. And yet Ned thinks he kept his promises to Lyanna.
  16. Actually a wet nurse is mentioned in the books. Her name is Wylla. She is said to be Jon Snow's mother by some, and she works as a wet nurse for House Dayne. The follow up questions are when does she get to Starfall, and from whence did she come, and in whose company did she arrive. The fact that some think she is Jon's mother could be because she shows up breast feeding him as a infant child. No invention necessary. Many gaps in knowledge to be filled in, however.
  17. I see you have responses by others, including @Ygrain, @Bael's Bastard, and @corbon, who have given quite capable responses to your question. All of which are posters I highly respect, but since you asked me for my response, let me add mine own thoughts to theirs, even if I partly duplicate theirs. I'm sorry for the late response, but life does sometimes get in the way. Now, you could get some of that evidence by reading previous posts in this thread, or even more by reading the information in the first post in every R+L=J thread for many, many years, but I'll try to lay out the evidence again, as I see it, for you. Among my problems in responding is that there is so much to speak to if I attempt do so adequately. You see, it isn't just a question of what is the direct evidence that points to Lyanna dying at the Tower of Joy, but it is also a question of what is the evidence for us to believe any of Ned's dream represents reality. All of that is what I call "foundational evidence" that provides the framework necessary to help us make such a judgement, including where Lyanna dies. But because you ask a honest question, and, as such it deserves an honest, full response, let me to take the time to try to do both. Direct Evidence First to Ned's dream. In the beginning Ned, from a perspective outside of the dream, states the following: Here Ned explicitly ties "Lyanna in her bed of blood" with the "three knights in white cloaks" and a "tower long fallen." The dream includes all three components as part of the same "old dream" - meaning he has dreamt this dream before, and "Lyanna in her bed of blood" is not something that is brought in as a new component to this recurring dream. So, yes, you are right the evidence starts with the dream Ned has in which he not only has a confrontation with three members of Aerys's Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, but also in which Lyanna screams out to him as Ned is woken from his dream. The evidence doesn't end there, but it is a critical part of understanding the story. That is how the dream begins. Here is the ending: Ned linking Lyanna in her bed of blood to the events at the Tower of Joy, and Ned's promise to his dying sister frame the dream. Lyanna screaming and, most importantly Ned's response of "I promise" and "Lya, I promise" are critical in understanding the connection of all the elements in this dream. I do not doubt that beginning with the phrase "Lord Eddard" we see Vayon Poole's voice begins to intrude into the dream, but the scream of "Eddard!" and most especially Ned's response to his sister tell us the connection of Lyanna's dying screams and Ned's response to promise something to her are tied directly to the rest of the dream. Ned doesn't just respond with a dreaming "what?" to his name, but he responds with a promise to Lya. What that promise was we are not told, but we are told elsewhere that Ned does indeed make his sister promises. He does so on her deathbed. This again is Ned in his private thoughts about promises he made to the dying sister. Again we have Ned's memories shown in his innermost thoughts. Not subject to any maintenance of lies he may have had to continue for others, but only his own memory of Lyanna's death. A death marked in his mind not only by the deep seated grief he shows here some fifteen years later, but also by the promises he had made to her as she lay dying. To me, this is powerful evidence that Ned's dreaming last moments are thinking back to Lyanna's last moments of life. The dream is not only about "Lyanna in her bed of blood' but is clearly about Lyanna's death. It is also important to note her that Ned ties Lyanna's death directly to a moment in which Howland Reed finds him holding Lya's dead body. We know Howland was present at the Tower of Joy and the duel with the Kingsguard that takes place there. We have no evidence that places him with Ned and Lyanna anywhere else save the long ago tourney at Harrenhal after which Lyanna is very much alive for literally years later. Here, let me say, I think it likely Howland does accompany Ned to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes, but we have no evidence that is the case. We have evidence that places Ned and Howland together at the Tower of Joy, but none that shows Lord Reed travelled to Starfall. Those who believe Lyanna died at Starfall and not at the Tower of Joy need to provide evidence Howland is there with Ned to even open up the possibility of Lyanna dying there. We know Howland is with Ned in the immediate aftermath of Lyanna's death. Ned tying Lyanna in her bed of blood to the events at the Tower of Joy, and Ned's promise to his dying sister frame the dream. It is all of one piece that constitutes the recurring "old dream." But this is not the only direct evidence. The evidence in the app entry points directly to Lyanna dying at the Tower of Joy. Of course, nothing is set in stone in a work of fiction. Those who want to question this evidence should, however, provide evidence that contradicts this history. Fan fiction is not evidence. It maybe entertaining, and it maybe creative. It isn't evidence. Again, direct evidence from the same source. This entry agrees with the one in Lyanna's entry. I hope that helps in understanding the direct evidence that does clearly support the idea that Lyanna dies at the Tower of Joy. Foundational Evidence What I'm looking for here is evidence that shows that the information given to us in Lord Stark's dream reflects reality. Not just information on Lyanna dying at the Tower, but anything that shows we should believe Ned's dream has elements of actual events, people, locations, and sequence of the history reflected in the dream. From the same perspective as the first quote above, Ned names his six companions: Which tells us not only the names and number of his companions, but also that this gathering of Ned with these men is not just a figment of his dreaming state. This much we know is real according to Ned's waking memories as well as in his recurring dream. Ned then tells us who he and his companions face. Again, there is the repetition that the dream and historic reality coincide in this meeting of Ned's party with the three yet unnamed men in white cloaks. It tells us this is not just a dream fantasy or a product of his fevered state, but a reflection, at least in part, to real events. And then he names the three men. Here we are told the three encountered men are Ser Arthur, Ser Oswell, and Ser Gerold. All members of Aerys's Kingsguard. What follows is a dialogue that could reflect Ned's own long unresolved troubles with the motivations of the Kingsguard in this fight, or it could be an actual memory of the event, or something in between. What isn't in doubt is the outcome of the fight that follows. This part of Ned's dream then gives us not only the name and number of the participants in the duel, but also a preliminary indication of its location, albeit a very general one in his description of "the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs." Is this then just a product of a fevered dream, or is it a reflection of reality? One detail we should note here is that in Ned's dream Ser Arthur has his greatsword Dawn strapped to his back. It is an important detail in the construction of the sequence of events that follow. This is not from the dream, although Ned connects it directly to the dream from which he has just been awoken by his steward. This is the waking Ned Stark thinking to himself about past events as he remembers them. Ned has no reason to lie to himself. The reader is forced to either believe Ned is delusional in his memories or this kind of evidence is among the most reliable a reader can find. As such, we know the general location and the name of the "tower long fallen." We have the strongest of evidence to show Ned and his six companions fought the three Kingsguard in a duel to the death that resulted in eight of the ten combatants dying, with only Ned and Howland surviving the fight. The evidence is also supported by the tale Ned tells Bran about Ser Arthur almost killing him, but for the intervention of Howland Reed. Precisely when, during the duel at the Tower of Joy, Ser Arthur died is open to question, but at sometime during the fight Howland Reed saved Lord Eddard from death dealt out by the Sword of the Morning. This account of the duel comes to us in somewhat altered form by the way of the rumors Ned's soldiers bring back to Winterfell, and in the historical accounts written in The World of Ice & Fire. The app also supports all of this. And from The World of Ice & Fire: All three accounts have Ser Arthur dying in combat with Ned, and Lord Eddard returning the sword Dawn to Starfall afterwords. The difference in the accounts is restricted to whether or not it is Ned alone that faces Ser Arthur. Given Ned is the only source we have that was actually there, we must give preference to his own account as the most accurate one. Therefore, we know it was at the place Rhaegar named the "tower of joy" this duel takes place, and that the tower is at least partially torn down by Ned, and perhaps with the help of others to make cairns for the eight dead men. Presumably, Ned didn't transport the bodies and the stones any long distance to build those cairns. We have no evidence or reason to think he did so, and as such the evidence we do have, and common sense, points very strongly that the cairns are in the close vicinity of where the fight and the tower were located. As to the geographical location of the Tower of Joy, we have the map included in A Dance of Dragons's front page of the south of Westeros which places the Tower of Joy in the Northeastern most section of land overlooking the Princes Pass. The map of Dorne on page 234 of The World of Ice & Fire also places the Tower just inside of the Northern boundary of Dorne. It is the same on maps 2 (The West) and 5 (Westeros) in The Lands of Ice and Fire. Noted nearby castles include Nightsong (seat of House Caron) to the north in the Stormlands, Kingsgrave (seat of House Manwoody) to the south in Dorne, and Vulture's Roost (a ruined castle) to the east also in Dorne. As an aside, this puts Lord Dagos Manwoody and his brother Ser Myles as prime suspects for the local lords in whose territory the Tower of Joy belongs. All of which support vital parts of Ned's dream as fact, and not the mere product of Ned's dream state. I think with just this information we can be fairly certain the dream then reflects reality in a least as far as the identities of the participants in the duel, the immediate fate of each participants in the duel, and the location and name of the place in which the duel takes place. But this is not the limit of what we can find evidence to support very important aspects of the dream being true. This is especially so when we look at the dream dialogue between Ned and the Kingsguard. This part of the dialogue tells us that the Battle of the Trident takes place be for the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and that the Kingsguard members in the duel were not present at the Trident. Which also tells us Ned's dream reflect the reality that Jaime killed Aerys, that Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell where not in King's Landing when the sack took place, and it also reflects the actual sequence of events of the Battle of the Trident happening before the sack of King's Landing and the death of Aerys. It also correctly shows Ned's presence in the city when the sack was ongoing. This, again, shows the proper sequence of events, and shows the surrender of the besieging forces to Ned and his army. Martin's own comments also confirm the sequence of events laid out in Ned's dialogue with the Kingsguard: In this last question put to the Kingsguard by Lord Stark, we see the present situation on Dragonstone as of the events at the Tower of Joy duel, and as a place of exile for Rhaella, Viserys, and Ser Willem Darry. It is important to note that the question and its answers do not reflect the existence of Daenerys, the death of Rhaella from complication of her birth, or the escape of Ser Willem, Viserys, and the infant Dany before the arrival of Stannis and his troops to Dragonstone. the dialogue doesn't show these events of the following year and show a sequence we know to fit reality. We can add to this the supporting evidence of Lady Dustin's remarks of Ned returning the horse Lord Dustin rides to the Tower of Joy in Ned's dream along with her remarks on where Lord Dustin was buried, Stannis's account of his taking of Dragonstone and missing the capture of Ser Willem, Viserys, and Dany, and many others. Ned's dream conversation conforms in all the ways we can verify concerning the sequence of events, and what actually happened in those events from the Battle of the Trident to the reality of the post Storm's End surrender of loyalist forces. If anyone wants the citations in the text to confirm this, I will be happy to provide them, but every knowledgeable reader of the story should know this is the case. This does not mean all the elements of Ned's dream do conform to reality. It is fairly certain that none of Ned's companions were wraiths when the duel takes place. It is very likely the skies over the Tower of Joy are not streaked with blood or a storm of blue rose petals upon Lyanna's screams of "Eddard!" And it is likely the hyperrealism Ned's recollection of the Kingsguard is indeed a function of his dream's focus on the three men. But all of this, refutes the idea we can dismiss Ned's dream as nothing but fantasy. It is a dream that demonstrably demonstrates its fidelity to reality in detail after detail. So, if we try to dismiss elements of the dream, such as the presence of Lyanna at the Tower, and her death there, we run smack into the problem of how it is true in so many of the verifiable details. This then is the framework that any evaluation of the dream must take place. It is also the antithesis of the approach posters are taking in making up ideas of Lyanna dying in Starfall. Here we find no, literally no, evidence to support such a claim. It is all based on "what ifs." So, what we have is a dream that has evidence it is a reflection of reality in at least these ways: Location the duel that takes place there the name and number of the duel's participants the deaths and burials of the eight men who did not survive the duel the identity of the two who do survive the sequence of time in which these events take place relative to the Trident, King's Landing, Storm's End, the Flight to Dragonstone, and Ned's travel to Starfall to return Dawn. Lyanna's scream as part of the duel Lyanna's death as the ending of the dream All of it in the framework of Ned's explicit tying of "Lyanna in her bed of blood" to the location and events at the Tower of Joy. This is NOT just a fevered dream. This is NOT just a product of Ned's trauma from Jaime's ambush and his ordered killing of Jory and the others. In fact, this dream, is a critical key to the readers understanding of the story. It should draw the reader's attention to the reasons behind the duel in the motivations of the Kingsguard, and in Ned's arrival with only six of his most trusted bannermen at his side, when he could have just as easily rode there with two hundred of his finest mounted warriors? What is the cause of Lyanna's death? All of these type of questions get lost when we make up stories unconnected to the one Martin is telling. @SerTarod, I hope this helps to answer your question. If not please let me know, and I will try to further explain the evidence as I see it.
  18. Of course, but no one is saying what is in the books or the app or from the author's own mouth cannot be wrong. What information from those sources are is evidence. What isn't evidence is stuff made up by fans. Guessing can be fun. Those guesses just need to have some real evidence to back them up, or they are just wild speculation. It is just another form of fan fiction, or substituting a fan's story for the author's. If you have any real evidence to back up the idea that Lyanna died elsewhere, then I would love to see it. A lemon tree in Braavos isn't a reason to question where Lyanna died. It is a reason to question how that lemon tree got to Braavos, and if the incongruity of a lemon tree in Braavos points to some important part of the story. It does, but that has nothing to do with where Lyanna dies, or whether or not Dany's memories of Braavos are real.
  19. Actually it is just what you called it - "Making stuff up." It's you substituting your imagination for the author's work. I congratulate you on having a vivid imagination, but your imagination isn't evidence to support any theory about what George R. R. Martin writes.
  20. Seven fought and two rode away, implies that of the seven in Ned's party only two rode away. Five of Ned's companions died. It says nothing about the three Kingsguard, or anyone else who was there. We know Lord Dustin, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, Ethan Glover, and Ser Mark Ryswell all die. We know Ned and Howland lived. I think I'm missing your point? Perhaps you have the quote wrong? I believe it is "Seven fought against three. Two rode away" or something like that. It still doesn't mean there was only 10 people at the Tower. It means there were ten combatants at the Tower, and only two of them survive. Martin did write or approved of the explicit reference in the app that says Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy.
  21. Ned has access to the horses he and his companions brought to the Tower. He also can use fire to destroy the timbers normally used as part of such a tower. It doesn't take an army to destroy a small watchtower. Ned may also have had the use of others he finds at the Tower to help in breaking down the Tower enough to use the stones to create the cairns used to bury the dead at the Tower. No he did not. Martin has told us explicitly Ned did not bring his troops into Dorne Nor would it make sense for Ned to leave the resources of an army parked out of sight over the hill, in order to fight some personal battle with the Kingsguard. Ned is a capable, and most would say exemplary, general. He is not a fool who leaves his army over the next hill. Ned goes into Dorne with he men he chooses for a reason. That reason is secrecy, not some personal vendetta against the Kingsguard guarding Lyanna.
  22. As @Ygrain has said, we have a variety of was in which dead bodies are handled in Westeros as shown in the books. None of which require the Silent Sisters to perform. The idea the Silent Sisters, if used in the process of dealing with Lyanna's corpse, need to have been from Starfall is without any support. The Silent Sisters exist throughout much of Westeros where the Seven are worshipped. What does the probability of finding them in far off Starfall have to do with dealing with Lyanna's body at the Tower of Joy? Nothing. I will repeat, the app tells us unequivocally that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy. This is supported by the shout of Lyanna to her brother in Ned's dream. If we start from the evidence the books and our author give us and then work within those parameters we get a much more likely understanding of the story than if we make stuff up outside those parameters. There is plenty of room for creative thinking within the boundaries the evidence set for us. If you want to show the evidence is wrong, then please show what counter evidence you have to support that claim. It happens. Renly's eyes are not green, but we have evidence that supports the contention the green eyes are a mistake. I'm open to any reasonable evidence that challenges what we think we know, but pure conjecture isn't evidence - reasonable or otherwise. I don't disagree that Ned would quite probably have Lyanna's bones put into a receptacle that honors her when he had the ability to do so. Certainly, the carvings in the crypts below Winterfell for both Lyanna and Brandon would show how he wanted them honored and the respect he showed for their remains. But here I find it very unlikely Ned brings Lyanna's bones back to King's Landing. I don't think he wants any dispute over who would take charge of her burial and where it would be located. Robert was extremely possessive of Lyanna in life, and I don't think he would likely be less so after her death. Ned would much more likely send Lyanna's bones north with whoever takes baby Jon and his wet nurse to Winterfell. Whether or not Ned meets that party before it gets to Winterfell is an open question to me, but I can't see Ned bringing Lyanna's bones, Howland, Jon, or Wylla anywhere near Robert and King's Landing. Much more likely is that Wylla stays in Starfall after Ned leaves there, and Howland takes Jon, a different wet nurse, and Lyanna's bones north. I agree it makes no sense for Ned to transport Lyanna's decaying body over any significant distance from the Tower of Joy where she died. It makes much more sense that her remains were dealt with at the Tower itself. If, for some unknown reason, it was transported away from the Tower, it would make sense if it was only to a very close place Ned had reason to trust. We agree it is unlikely Robert saw Lyanna's bones, for all the reason I stated above, but it doesn't take hugely specialized knowledge to read the markings on pelvic bones. Certainly, maesters with a silver link would likely know, and probably many who haven't won the link would as well. Among the small folk, it is likely any who deal with childbirth, or burials, might have the ability to notice the significance of the markings on her bones. I do think that the Silent Sisters would be among those most likely to notice. All the more reason to not involve them. Here, I believe you are reaching for some totally unsupported and convoluted theory. People die everyday all over Westeros. Their bodies are dealt with without resort to sending to Oldtown or any other major city for specialists in the handling of corpses. There is no reason to go to this length of speculation without some real evidence to support it. It doesn't take breaking a vow of silence to communicate information. Writing works extremely well in doing so. What the Silent Sister's do have, that others may not, is extensive experience in dealing with dead bodies. Noticing markings on the bones of dead women who had been pregnant is something would should expect them to be aware of. Again, a powerful reason for Ned not to involve them in dealing with Lyanna's body. Nor is it necessary for the Silent Sisters to know who Lyanna was in life. They only have to be aware that a man they can identify brought the body of a young woman to them, and the bones of that woman showed the signs of pregnancy. Her body, before rendering it to bones, would likely show signs of the cause of death as well. There is if they have an opportunity to do so. Not everyone has reason to accept Ned's tale at face value. He has political enemies that would love to prove him disloyal and guilty of lying to Robert.
  23. I'm glad you know this fact, but your previous post stated otherwise. The question isn't whether Robert knew enough to understand what the bones would tell him, but rather would any maester in Westeros with medical training (the right silver link in his chain) see what the signs on Lyanna's bones meant. If so, Ned has a powerful reason to keep Lyanna's bones in his control only, and to keep them from any examination. Which is an argument for him to keep the Silent Sisters out of the process. Being silent does not preclude communication of information. If someone like Marwyn was at the Tower with Ned when she died - the latter part which we know to be fact - then it would make sense for Marwyn, or his equivalent, to take the unenviable task upon himself.
  24. @Megorova I can't respond to all of this now, but one assertion you make jumped out at me that others might not take issue with. You say, In a fictional world all things are possible, so Martin does not have to follow real world realities, but in our world this is simply not true. Pelvic bones show the evidence of pregnancy. My guess is that Martin knows this, as he has clearly stated he tried to show in his books the realities of pregnancy. I will try to get back later tonight to contribute to the discussion about theories you put forward.
  25. Why would that possibility indicate Ned is in Starfall when he is found holding Lyanna's body? We have direct evidence that is not the case. It is not as if there can be no Silent Sisters in the area of the Tower, or anywhere from there to Starfall. Given that Ned is holding his recently deceased sister's body, I highly doubt Howland or anyone else has already gone for the Silent Sisters to wisk away her corpse. Given we know Lyanna died at the Tower, then your supposition is based on Ned carrying Lyanna's body on a very long journey from the Tower of Joy to Starfall. It is much more likely the "they" the finds Ned is not inclusive of Silent Sisters, but of Howland and whoever else was at the Tower where Lyanna died. The preparation of the bones for burial is not something that requires Silent Sisters to accomplish, but if they were involved in the task, then it is much more likely someone of the "they" goes to get them and brings them to the Tower after "they" find Ned holding the dead Lyanna.
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