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Everything posted by hiemal

  1. The crystallization of hoarfrost and individual snowflakes seems emergent as well. I like this idea.
  2. Combine that with the "Battle for the Dawn" and in my book you have a near certain connection.
  3. For example, a Sword dropped by one of the Last Hero's fallen companions? That could fit nicely. Perhaps by he who would become Coldhands or the Black Gate... Also: /facepalm I was considering CotF as Sword creators not as ...the Stone the Sword comes out of? Good call, and since the CotF are linked so heavily with caves I think that satisfies the "grail" qualification at the same time. I wonder if that might "transform" a Sword in nature as well as name? Could a Sword of Betrayal (or Bastards?) become a Sword of Kings?
  4. TBH, I've always had a suspicion that magic is meant to be an invasive force, and that stagnation is a result of that- "progress" doesn't really make sense in a world governed by forces that can be interacted with in a purely transactional way rather than through the incremental accumulation of knowledge.
  5. Is he related to Joe Mama? Seriously, though... I don't see the Swords either coming out of falling into their hands or claws. Children shouldn't play with swords (someone will put an eye out?) but it is possible that an ancestral form did- the Labyrinth Builders. I think the CotF might be a "grail" people, instead. The open-hand shape of the weirwood trees, red though they are... hmmm... I feel like there's something there but it's not clicking.
  6. This dream does seem more personal than many visions we've seen from others. Melting snow is usually something more hopeful, more indicative of a Dream of Spring. Perhaps its nothing more that a sign that despite his envy of Robb, and the hard choice that sent Sam on his way he knows that he will miss them when the Snow is gone for them? Jon's dreams seem to me harder to interpret than most others. Maybe because of a mixed lineage? Snow will melt from them because of his absence and because of certain... revelations that may be coming in the future?
  7. I think the raven intruding is a pretty good indication of which forces as well. Also, for some reasonthe snow was melting from Robb's hair really catches my attention- is this Jon letting of his past? Combined with the colors of black and red, I wonder if this might indicate that Jon will lose or give LC and pick up Blackfyre.
  8. Lions... It was a long claw indeed that took down Robb Stark.
  9. Can't have Sword and Sorcery without some Sword lore.
  10. I have no firm ideas really on any of the Swords, only calculations. It does make things complicated. Jon's updgrade: Would LC to Blackfyre be a redemption arc? Or a revelation mirroring Ned's "betrayal" of his marriage vows to Cat? I wonder if Brienne could perhaps get a similar upgrade with Just Maid? Hmmm, Arya replaces Needle with Dark Sister? It makes sense to me. And as for LC in the Final Battle... my money is on... Rickon Stark
  11. Right? Also Robert/Cersie/Jaimie as Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot, Florian/Percival, etc. All we have are broken grails/dead mothers. If Dawn is a true (not produced by means of whatever abominations produce VS) excalibur than we should we have a true grail? LB is the anti-excalibur. Exactly. the Unholy Grail. The Dagda's grail that brings back the dead. The Power that allows the Others the create and control wights. I think this happened when the Amethyst Empress died in childbirth and came back as Night's Queen but that's some pretty heavy speculation, tinfoil, and maybe even a little bullshit but it is an answer. How much talk about swords is really about lineages and breeding and the heirs of prophecy and how much is about actual pieces of metal? Or is it both at the same time? Trying to get the proper sword to the proper hero at the proper time?
  12. I don't want to derail the thread but more if you get a hankerin'. It's closed now but it has more of my semi-coherent spitball attempts at grappling with magic in general: Or at least, that's the story. It has such mythic qualities that it is hard to question it, but at the same time GRRM loves to defy expectation. Dawn and Starfall feel to me like Excalibur- which is a big red flag given how the game of chivalry is played out here, Also, a holy sword without a holy grail is... unbalanced? With no original sin, there is no virgin birth- thus the broken vessels of dead mothers and a sword with no grail. Unless the grail is Night's Queen, but that's going way out in the weeds for a thread on Longclaw... Also... Starfall/Starkfall and Ashara's suicide and Ned's returning Dawn. Hmmmm
  13. I've kicked that idea around, too- because as much as I love an abundance tinfoil I love connecting the dots and simplifying the complex more. I love the idea, because it also brings in the "Rule of Three" that seems so prevalent. At the same time I'm semi-convinced that Lightbringer itself refers either exclusively or primarily to dragonriding rather than a physical sword. I'd give even money on LH, AA, and PtwP being one or three or two. I'm that unsure about it. I suppose I'd probably come down with Azor Ahai=Bloodstone Emperor/LB=PtwP/LH being either a Stark or a Dayne as most likely but ask again when I favor different tinfoils and get a different answer. Suggestive, no? I nominate Symeon Last Hero and Night's King.
  14. Which brings us the to the possibility that Dawn could be Ice reclaimed. I call that "From a fallen Star(k)". "Battle for the Dawn", Symeon Star(k)-Eyes, Hellhounds at the Nightfort and all that.
  15. So I think that trying to break everything down by elements is probably oversimplifying or at least potentially misleading but in the North we would have: 1. The Old Gods and the CotF. I link them with earth- the weirwood roots, the hollow hills, some form of power over earthquakes/raising and sinking large areas of land. It's impossible to know how much of the "history" is meant to be genuine and how much legend but it came to earlier, that maybe if greenseers could warg firewyrms maybe that was how they accomplished these feats (and maybe brought about the Doom?). 2. The Drowned God. We know almost nothing about him, but that doesn't mean I don't tinfoil. I believe the DG may be a grove of weirwoods that was sent to the bottom of the ocean by the CotF and then corrupted by Deep Ones. The Deep Ones influence the Ironborn through the Seastone chair and possibly by gifts of weirwood driftwood for the Drowned Men. Total HP Lovecraft vibe from the whole deal and I'm pretty sure Euron is in their pocket and maybe Patchface? He's in the wrong corner of Westeros so maybe there are other Drowned Groves? I think there is a distinction between Deep Ones and merlings, however, and Patchface is something else. 3. The Great Other. So, probably Ice but Melisandre also links him with darkness and death. Pick a lane, buddy. Dawn seems to be of a completely different substance from anything we have encountered so far. It's too different, it sticks out too much to be compared with Longclaw or any other blade we've heard of. That's more or less my working assumption. There's only one Dawn and hundreds of Swords. Nightfall might be its counterpart in name, but if it has an opposite in substance it must be Ice (and only if Ice is of a substance created by the Others and not of Dragonsteel).
  16. In a sense, yes, but I think it is the differences that are critical. If I am right, then all systems of magic are based of an original model (probably either the CotF's or the Deep One's) that has been changed slightly to new laws and new effects. We can focus on Ice and Fire because that's the Song, but the backbeat is Earth and Water. Dragonsteel. would that be the Great Empire of the Dawn equivalent to VS? If so, I think I was more or less using the terms interchangeably, which, if it is right must be basically true since no one who has seen Longclaw has reported it as being substantially different from other VS. There couldn't have been many Dragonsteel blades floating around Westeros at that time. Only if Shaggydog is dead, I think.
  17. Ah yes- and I just read that again not too recently. The question then becomes, is it usual for someone from outside the chivalric tradition to be so honored and normal to accept such an accolade. Or was he raised in the tradition, perhaps fostered at White Harbor or further South?
  18. I am more and more drawn to the idea that Longclaw was originally given to the Mormonts at or beyond the Wall- the mythic parallel to Jeor giving it to Jon is just to delicious to ignore. If it is Ice, this means that Ice is VS and not a different type of Sword and a different type of magic altogether as Dawn seems to be, I think the best explanation might be getting it from Night's King because that would also explain why the Starks never attempted to retrieve it AND would avoid speaking plainly of its loss. The only real problem that I see right now with that is would the ertswhile Stark still be able to wield Ice after he is presumably changed into something more like an Other? Maybe he was immune or just really careful? Perhaps because the Crannogmen are so close to the magic of the North they had little interest in the magic of the Land of Always Summer? As for rewards, Ned surely had reason to reward Howland handsomely, and as much reason to want to buy his silence if he thought that way. Beyond protection, which their swamps seem to offer already, I'm not sure what the Crannogmen in general and the Reeds in particular buy with their loyalty- they certainly aren't rich but I think their oaths run deep and are more valuable to them than gold. Debts that I think the Starks may have forgotten to their sorrow. They have become civilized, and think that "Winter is Coming" is a warning not a threat. Blood in the snow, entrails in the trees, and that's just the Old Gods. I think the Starks probably mixed blood with the Others at some point, or made oaths- if Ice is not, in fact VS, than this is where I think it originally came from. In King's Landing they sacrifice children to Starvation and to worse gods than that. Indifference and greed or cruelty and desperation, pick your poison I suppose. How did Jorah end up becoming a knight? I don't remember any explanation being offered but I could have forgotten.
  19. Inanimate objects and will: I absolutely believe that VS swords have a spirit, that at least one human soul was absorbed in their creation and that its essence infuses that blade with a particular nature which might possibly be altered by absorbing other souls during combat and that the dominant soul (the one that determines a swords "personality") might further be from a time after the sword's creation. For example, I think that it is possible that the circumstances under which Aegon I's soul is absorbed by Blackfyre when he is cremated might represent the essential nature of the blade, reflected in the name, even though the sword was presumable fairly old by the time that happened.
  20. I think that is one of the main themes of the series. I think that does make the Mad King a kind of Gollum parallel although I had also never thought of it in those terms. Power can become an excuse to wield that power? As for whether the throne itself has magic- that depends on whether or not there is a Sword hidden among the swords. looking at you, Drogon, to settle that issue in a climactic finale scene.
  21. That would be interesting- an act of particular heroism during the Battle for the Dawn, perhaps, saving a Stark and being rewarded with a Sword and lands or even taking it from a fallen Stark in the heat of the decisive melee or... after... if a certain Stark took it to the Wall and then became Night's King (Ice would be truly fitting blade for such as he!) and then it was reclaimed after that battle by Lord Mormont? I think I like that one for now!
  22. You as well. I needed a while to digest the HBO... unpleasantness before I was ready to return Westeros. I'm glad that so many folks are still here keeping the fires of lore and tinfoil alive. "Those who know do not speak, and those who speak do not know..." It wouldn't surprise me at all, and the animalistic name of Longclaw certainly makes me wonder. I wonder if the Mormonts didn't acquire the sword and reputation during the Battle for the Dawn and were later recognized when Bear Island "became available" after the infamous wrasslin' match. And of course what the real story is behind that transfer of power. Bear Island must have enough wealth to tempt the reavers. There's another possible origin for Longclaw- looted from slain Ironborn who themselves plundered the blade from someone else. I think they know something, but I also think the truest memory of the North probably lies in the Neck. I wonder if there have been any Reeds in the Mormont tree or bears in the swamps? I like the idea of generational sacrifice to the Wall- I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but that feels right. Perhaps in the same way that heroes in Westeros seem to spring from dead mothers, swords of destiny must come as prodigies without a well established history? Bit of a stretch, but I think the symbolism of swords/cocks/lineage/history is very much intertwined in this series.
  23. Exactly. She says that threats to her person were the fist thing she learned to see but she also says that her visions require interpretation. She is pretty bad at this overall and seems to act often in a way that brings about her visions even as she seeks to avoid them- for example when she advises Stannis to kill Renly because of her vision of Garlen Tyrell in Renly's armor at the Battle of Blackwater. Whether or not history can actually be altered or only seems to be shifted in course because of limited perspective is probably beyond the scope of the series but the "presentation" is important- as well as who is sending or facilitating them and why. Maggy's prophecy seems to be just that, it is reported in a way that is impossible to misinterpret or to escape. The only ambiguity is the identity of the "little brother" and that could just be spite. Or Maggy could just really good at interpreting visions and I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely.
  24. We could a long way towards answering this if we knew how and when House Mormont acquired such a treasure. It wouldn't hurt to know where they hung their helmets before they settled on Bear Island as well- was it called Bear Island before it was given to them or did they take their sigil when they assumed lordship? Are there any actual bears on Bear Island, anyways? The Mormonts are not wealthy and seem historically to favor axes, so how did they manage to get a blade while the knightly Manderly go without (I think?) and the Boltons' make do with a VS flensing knife? "Longclaw" as a name has always seemed very totemistic, very Northern to me.
  25. I think there might be a distinction between visions (Mel, Jojen, Patchface, etc), prophecies (various Targs from Daenys the Dreamer to Danaery the Dreamed), and non-linear time-experience (Bran in the weirnet)- visions being essentially a symbolic, dreamlike message from "outside of linear time" that represents the future in some way that be interpreted or misinterpreted in the case of Melisandre (Cassandra+Amelia Bedelia) but can, from the experience of the person receiving vision, potentially change the future. Prophecy binds history along the course of its vision, allowing no deviation, while Bran's weirnet experience could represent an actual violation of causality as he seems to have a conservation with Jon that takes place in this way. I think we also can't rule out the possibility that someone is sending false visions by means of glass candle.
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