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Hodor the Articulate

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  1. Hodor the Articulate

    Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

    "She could be swayed, so she specifically didn't listen" could be easily shown by having one of the GM start to proclaim their innocent, only to be cut off by Dany, either verbally or in her thoughts. I'm not seeing the problem with Dany's dissenters mentioning "innocent" slavers either. They were trying to undermine her confidence by trying to convince her she was hypocritical that her anti-slavery campaign was pointless. Narratively, her arc was about her doubting her own capacity for cruelty. I think adding that some of the GM were actually against the crucifixions would work well. Plus, her enemies are already spreading rumors that paint her as a viscous baby eating tyrant - wouldn't the fact that she cruelly tortured innocent slavers fit perfectly? OK, but from what parts of what GRRM wrote have you inferred this from? So far all you've given me is people wouldn't sell themselves into slavery if the Great Masters were all that cruel, and we've already agreed that it is possible. While there is nothing explicitly stating all the GM were unilaterally for crucifying the children, I've already given evidence of how it is implied that they at least all responsible. To counter your points: 1. Dany's narration is the only one available to us. Therefore, absent of any info that contradicts her thoughts, we must take it to be true. And she doesn't need magical mind reading abilities to know the GM were the culprits behind the crucifixions. If you question that, you might as well question how she knew it was them that burnt the olive trees. 2. If Dany's using "Great Masters" to refer to Meereen's leaders, as Catelyn uses "Westermen" to refer to Tywin and his forces, well she punishes the right people, doesn't she? She asks for 163 of their leaders. 3. So one guy is nailing up slave children along the road between Yunkai and Meereen, and no one stops him? Should we also assume some the Good Masters are "innocent" of the methods used to create the Unsullied? This isn't a Varys-LF situation where what they're doing is secretive, and where they don't have the same level of official power. Oh, I see. You're offended because you think I'm accusing you of being a sexist. *sigh* ok...you're not sexist. You've never exhibited sexist behaviour or had sexist thoughts. You've never told sexist joke or made a woman uncomfortable. And you've definitely 100% never once been influenced by anyone else's ideas in your adult life because you're old and you have critical thought! You're the most fair, most egalitarian, most women respecting internet stranger I know. Gloria Steinem should hoist you up on a pedestal so she can show all feminists what they should strive to be. I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. It's not a matter of hearing a novel idea once and accepting it just like that. It's encountering that idea over and over again throughout your lifetime, with reinforcement. For example, from childhood we learn that girls play with dolls and boys play with trucks because that's the type of toys adults buy for us. Then, that idea is reinforced when almost every ad we see has girls playing with dolls and boys playing with trucks, and when our peers mimic that pattern. Now, as an adult, you have to buy a present for a little girl but you don't know her well, and you can choose either a doll or a truck. Unless you're trying to prove a point, the instinctual decision is going to be the doll, even though you know, intellectually, that girls can also like trucks. (And that's the story of why I had dozens of Barbies even though I really liked diggers). Now, that isn't a perfect example, but it's pretty much what happens when women are discriminated against when seeking positions of power. People may want to be fair and egalitarian but they'll still carry stereotypes of women not being fit to handle power, etc. And it won't be obvious because those biases will be cloaked under justifications that sound perfectly rational, like "I think women are just as capable as men, but Susan is too unlikable to lead a team". What studies? Who opposed it? And how many? The concept of implicit bias is widely accepted in psychology. The only debate is whether the IAT is reliable, which is what that research paper you brought up is about (I have many problems with it myself), but even there, the general consensus is that it's ok. Impossible to pick up by yourself, I meant. But this thread isn't just asking why people don't like Dany. It asks why people don't like Dany but like Arya in the context of sexism. The Bias Cleanse thing is some sort of project done with MTV, so of course it's marketed like it's a hippy detox drink. But what's so vague and contradictory about the rest of it? Even the Cleanse doesn't contradict the idea that implicit biases aren't accessible through introspection. I haven't looked into the program, but it's likely it involves activities like spending more time around Asians, exposing yourself to things that contradict common stereotypes...stuff to "train" yourself into being less instinctively biased. You don't know what that means? C'mon, now you're being deliberately obtuse. Shall I put it another way then? How about: no one is immune to being sexist AND since we don't have gender equality it's very likely we will exhibit sexist behaviors at some point in our lives? I shouldn't have had to add that last part - it was evident that was what I meant, given what I've been writing so far. And if you're going to tell me gender equality has already been achieved, we're going to have to take this to pm, because that discussion is going to make this conversation waaay too long for this thread. Oh, and I'm going to be busy with real life stuff, so don't expect a reply from me in the next 6 or 7 days.
  2. Hodor the Articulate

    Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

    That ex-slaves sold themselves is a common misconception that most people have, me included at one time. I mean, it's not impossible, especially outside of Meereen where living conditions really disintegrated, but we just can't say for sure because there's no actual example of it in the text. And I don't think Daario was lying when he said the people begging to be sold were "gently born". He doesn't have anything to lose or gain by convincing Dany to allow slave trade to continue outside Meereen (and the text doesn't hint at anything). Just looking at the nobles though, Daario describes them as potentially being "prized slaves", and this is likely what they thought as well, differentiating themselves from the Unsullied or the children who were crucified. They'd be owned by the richest slavers and living close to how they were before. I can believe they'd see that as an attractive option after the shock of suddenly having their power stripped and their income slashed. Like Tyrion, they wouldn't think being owned, regardless of how well they were treated, could be that bad, having never experienced such a thing. I'm not 100% on how it all works tbh, because we get some contradicting descriptions of the Great Masters. For example, we get "The Great Masters, what a ripe lot o’ maggots. The women weren’t so bad..." and "The Great Masters had looked anything but great in the morning light [...] a herd of old men with shriveled balls and spotted skin and young men with ridiculous hair. Their women were either soft and fleshy or as dry as old sticks..." but then they're "old men with withered cocks and crones whose puckered cunts were dry as dust". Dany uses "Great Masters" to refer to the leaders of her enemies (like "The Great Masters of Meereen had withdrawn before Dany’s advance"), which is why I get the impression that not every noble is a Great Master, but sometimes the usage could be referring to whole families. I'm not sure what to make of it. Hizdahr convincing the Sons is a neutral act that neither supports nor condemns them. He openly states his reasons for doing so is (a) because he wants to protect his own (from Dany) and (b) to become Dany's consort. Here you say GRRM might worry Dany would be swayed by their pleading, but you previously claimed you were quite certain that a proclamation of innocence would fall only on deaf ears. I'm no writer, but it doesn't seem it would be difficult to slot in a quick "but my husband did not do this thing". He found the time to write in that one of the old women was sobbing, after all. There was also ample opportunity to write in doubt in later scenes. She had plenty of people criticizing her, trying to convince her she wasn't improving any lives, like Xaro. Why couldn't one of them use the "innocent" slavers to argue that she was not doing any good in Meereen? I find none of these ideas implausible. Maybe he plans to drop it in, in the next book (unlikely, because the arc of Dany doubting her "dragon" side concluded in her last chapter), but unless we see that, your headcanon that Dany crucified men who did not want to nail up children remains headcanon, and not something that can be inferred from what GRRM had written. As for evidence for GM all agreeing to the crucifixions, it is implied in the text when Dany thinks "The Great Masters of Meereen [...] had nailed a slave child up on every milepost along the coast road from Yunkai" and there is nothing to contradict her narration. Also, if some of them had objected to the act, what was stopping them from vetoing the idea? They were the decision makers of the place. The fact that the deed was done implies they all consented to and agreed to perform the act, regardless of their personal feelings about it. They didn't need to have physically pinned a child to a post (something they likely got other slaves to do, anyway) to have been guilty. Hence, there was no need for a trial. I didn't say people are biased by everything they hear. I said that no one is immune to being sexist and everyone has biases which are unconsciously picked up through the environment in which we are exposed to. I don't have to be a mind reader or conceited to think this because there are hundreds of studies about this phenomenon. Also, it just makes logical sense. We aren't born with fully formed opinions, and the opinions we do have can change with new experiences. Is it so farfetched then, that our attitudes and opinions can be tainted by the sexism that we've grown up with? Yes, there is critical thought, but it's impossible to be thinking critically 100% of the time, and there are times where you don't even know you're being sexist (particularly if you're going around thinking you just CAN'T be sexist because you're such a great guy). I mentioned that I often catch myself being sexist, not because I think everyone thinks just like me, as you rudely assert, but because I wanted to show that despite awareness of your own biases and limitations, it can still creep up on you, because we've all had a lifetime of conditioning. But there are also biases we hold that are impossible to pick up one. I don't want to get into it too much here, so I'll just link this article explaining it: http://kirwaninstitute.osu.edu/research/understanding-implicit-bias/. It's these types of unconscious biases that seep into our reading and interpretation of female (and male) characters. TL;DR so do I think everyone is sexist? No, to call everyone sexist is to make the term meaningless. But I do think no one is immune to being sexist.
  3. Hodor the Articulate

    Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

    That man was never slave. He was formerly a rich merchant. Of course he'd prefer to be sold to his "friend" and go back to living in a manse over digging ditches. Actually, now that I think on it, I don't think there was ever a mention of freedmen wanting to sell themselves back to slavery. The Meereenese begging to be bought were described as "gently born" i.e. they were ex-slavers. Hizdahr was a merchant. I will concede that it is possible he was a Great Master as he was noble, but that's not the impression I got while reading. It was certainly never mentioned. In any case, Hizdahr stopping the murders was not because he objected to them. That much is clear. He explicitly states his reason for wanting peace was because he wanted to protect his own people. Hence, it is not an example of a Great Master condemning the actions of the Sons Once again, you're arguing from an in-story perspective when what I asked was, what was stopping the author from having one of the men about to be crucified to plead for his life, being that he was innocent? It would have fit perfectly in that scene, which was about Dany reflecting on the harshness of her punishment. What was stopping him from having Xaro or another of Dany's critics mention that not all the GM agreed to the crucifixions? You're free to imagine the Great Masters as "innocent" but there is no textual evidence for it, as far as I can see. Also, having re-read the scene, it's worth noting that Dany specifically asks them to hand over their leaders. If you're going to be disingenuous and pretend I didn't write anything between those two sentences explaining my statements, then this conversion is over. And you think you're immune to bias, then it's your own ego that needs checking.
  4. Hodor the Articulate

    Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

    You speak as if the re-enslaved had a choice, when they the likely only alternative option was to starve. Personally, I would rather sell myself back to the cruelest slaver than die on the streets, and I'm sure many people would do the same. Besides, no one sold themselves back to the Great Masters since slavery remained banned in Meereen, so no former slave went back to serving anyone who crucified the 163 children. Hizdahr wasn't one of the Great Masters. Also, he offered to stop the murders in exchange for Dany's hand in marriage, not as a symbol of disapproval of the Sons of the Harpy's actions. Clearly, none of them have any issue with torturing and murdering (former) slaves. Again, if GRRM had meant for there to be sympathetic Great Masters, he would have had one of them come forth to proclaim his innocence in the crucifixions or something similar. But they haven't been portrayed as anything but cruel and vile, just like the Good Masters of Astapor. It doesn't matter if a proclamation is acknowledged or not. If the author intended for us to see that there were "innocent" slavers, such a scene would have existed to convey that idea. There is no reason he could not have had one of the Great Masters, or one of their wives tell Dany that they didn't approve of the crucifixions. I mean, they were about to die horrifically. It would have been an opportune moment to defend themselves. In a sense, yes. No one here lives in a vacuum. As long as sexism exists, we'll all those certain biases with us, learnt from media, interactions with other people, etc. I often catch myself having sexist thoughts.
  5. Hodor the Articulate

    Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

    Re: "projected misogyny". I don't see the problem with pointing out the influence sexism and misogyny has on character likeability. No one is unaffected by it. How this idea, that a portion of the GM were benevolent slavers who objected to harming slave children, persisted? Did I miss the scene where Skazzzzzos Mo Kazzzzos tried to tuck a child's intestines back in as he wept? Or the scene where even one of them codemned the Harpy's Sons' murders of freedmen? The author had no problem painting Dany's actions as morally grey, so if he intended for the issue to be that there were "innocent" slavers, he would have had at least one of them come out and proclaim his innocence.
  6. Hodor the Articulate

    Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

    I assure you, you are mistaken. The men she crucified weren't just random slavers, they were the Great Masters...you know, the rulers of city, and the people who get to decide to pin up slave children to taunt an invading enemy. Ask 100 people to describe Arya and "tomboy" is guaranteed to pop up in most of the responses, if not all of them. Sure, Arya has both masculine and feminine features, as do all multi-dimensional characters, but you can't deny that she is seen as more masculine than feminine, and that effects her likeability.
  7. Hodor the Articulate

    Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

    Something to do with Dany being feminine AND occupying traditional male roles. It's easier for people to accept a masculine female character doing that than a feminine one, which is why we get so many action flicks with emotionless (and dull) female leads. Is this really what the board has devolved into?
  8. The point is, though, that Dany did try to assimilate into Meereenese culture, just as she did with the Dothraki, which contradicts your claim that she doesn't like to adapt. I already said she is violent, but she also often reflects on it ("There is blood on my hands too, and on my heart. We are not so different, Daario and I. We are both monsters"). In the Dothraki Sea, she reconciles her "Mhysa" side with her dragon side. I agree that Dany is merciless to her enemies when she is fueled by compassion, as was the case with the wineseller's daughters. I say it was uncharacteristic though, because torturing the daughters while the father looks on was Shavepate's idea. She wasn't even thinking about questioning anyone "sharply" until prompted by the Shavepate. Her original idea was just to question the wineseller and the daughters separately, and to investigate whatever names they bring up.
  9. The girl who donned "floppy ears" and ate a raw horse heart "doesn't like to adapt"? I'd say Dany is the most flexible character in the series, constantly taking up the customs of the people she rules. And she's shown, repeatedly, that she is different from the average leader. She is violent, yes, but how many lords in Westeros would have reflected on their own violence? How many would have freed all those slaves? How many would have stayed in Meereen to try to stabilise the city before moving onto Westeros? People always bring up the wineseller's daughters, but leave out that it was an uncharacteristic act for her.
  10. Hodor the Articulate

    Stannis Baratheon has no true claim to the throne

    No, he has a claim, just not a strong one unless he could convince people that Cersei's children are illegitimate. But even then, he was doomed to fail from the beginning because no one likes him. I never understood why people claim Stannis is an underdog, or rather why he is a sympathetic underdog. Sure, we don't expect him to win, but that's because he's constantly shooting himself in the foot. Usually, underdog characters are people who are of low status because of outside forces. Stannis, meanwhile, has everything going for him - he's got land and wealth, he's the master of ships, and he has a competent witch killing of his enemies, but he squanders it all by being a grumpy ass all the time and tactlessly insulting potential allies. I don't think there's anything contradictory in his portrayal. He commands the respect and admiration of a few men who are extremely loyal to him (Davos, Cressen), and everyone else either respects but dislikes him (Ned, Jon) or straight up can't stand him. And we see this reflected in the POVs.
  11. I think the idea that these characters are stubbornly holding grudges with each other is unfounded. Dany wants vengeance/justice on the Usurper and his dogs. I never got the impression that she also wanted to go full Tywin on them. And on the other side, most of Westeros (the younger generation, anyway) barely remembers her, as evidenced by the prologue of AFFC. I imagine there will be some initial reluctance to ally, but that will be because their families fought on opposite sides in the last great war, not because they feel personal hatred towards each other.
  12. I'm not sure if it will have any impact on her or the story, seeing as nearly all of the leaders of the rebellion are dead. She's not going to stop her ambitions to reclaim the IT just because Ned had good reasons to rebel. I mean, what else is she going to do with her life, go and join the Dosh Khaleen?
  13. Hodor the Articulate

    What cultural impact could there be from Robert dismissing Cersi for Margary?

    Agreed. Alternatively, it wouldn't be that difficult to accuse Cersei of infidelity, or to find "witnesses" to it. He wouldn't even have to exile her children, just spread rumors that cast doubt on their legitimacy.
  14. Hodor the Articulate

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    But there will be change, whether the characters are actively working for it or not. Dany, the Others, and greyscale will see to that. Plus, there's the rising resentment among the smallfolk - what will have been the point of even including their voices if everything just stayed the same for them in the end? And if ASOIAF has a conformist message, why are all the surviving central protagonists outsiders? Also you have, once again, left out Essos, which has already experienced huge structural changes, for the better.
  15. Hodor the Articulate

    Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna

    If the wellbeing of the collective lowborn was most important, the right thing to do would be to reconstruct society so that the noble families did not have a monopoly on power. And when you get to Essoss, your interpretation breaks down completely, because "doing your duty" means continuing slavery. Obviously, that is not what GRRM is going for. He did not spend the past five books pointing out all the problems of Westerosi society to say "but don't change anything!"
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