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Hodor the Articulate

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  1. Hodor the Articulate

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    I think there must be more to it that just blowing it, otherwise anyone could control a dragon by just getting a hold of the horn.
  2. Hodor the Articulate

    The most important book character that did´nt made it into the tv-show

    I'm surprised there's so many mentions of Val. She does nothing the whole book. Such a non character at this point. Young Griff is one of the characters that affected the plot the most. Varys was pretty much a useless character without him.
  3. Hodor the Articulate

    Conleth Hill table read reaction to Varys death (Last Watch video clip)

    He is all of us.
  4. Hodor the Articulate

    The Ending Was very conventional

    I haven't called anyone racist, so you can stop being so defensive. I bolded the word disproportionate and even clarified what I meant by it. I'm not going to go around in circles arguing this. Improved does not mean fixed. They're works of fantasy that have widespread appeal, invalidating the idea that fantasy was only, or even largely, consumed by white men. But I don't care to continue this topic any further. It's not got any relevance to the thread, and neither of us have any statistics to back any of this up, only stereotypes and anecdotal evidence. Don't put words in my mouth. I added that historical homogeneity in protagonists shouldn't have any bearing on modern fiction to try to bring the conversation back on topic, because you kept (and still keep) talking about why (you think) things were the way they were, which was completely irrelevant. Again you're getting defensive because you think I'm making accusations. It doesn't matter how the men are portrayed because there are no existing stereotypes about men being overemotional or wrongly ambitious like there is for women. I don't know how many other ways I can explain this. I can't tell if you're ignoring parts of what I'm writing, or if you genuinely don't understand what I mean. Please read the whole paragraph before replying, because I don't want to have to keep repeating myself. Both Cersei and Dany turned out to be mad queens. You can't be trying to argue they were presented as good queens? Bran, apparently. The show ends on a positive note, with Bran as King. There is implied peace. Thus, Bran is the 'good King' to oppose the former 'bad Kings/Queens' - Robert, Joffrey, Cersei, Dany. I was talking about female villains being power hungry, hysterical, and/or vain. See: the God Save Us from the Queen! trope if you want examples. I still don't know why you're on about Dany's history as a protagonist. The show had bad writing - so what? The whole show was about Walter. He was the lead protagonist. If we didn't get to see his transformation from his perspective, you wouldn't be able to understand why he did what he did, because the other characters sure didn't. He was portrayed sympathetically right to the end. Dany, other hand, was dehumanized as soon as she turned. How did she feel as she roasted peasants? We can only make assumptions because the camera only showed us other people's reactions to her actions. She was a mere plot device for the rest of the show. So if I draw a picture of a smirking man with a large hooked nose, rubbing his hands together, and maybe surrounded by bags of money, that'd be okay, right? At the very least, admit that we shouldn't be encouraging cliched writing. (I don't feel like starting another debate, so let's assume you're right here). That's just the point. The story is whatever they want it to be. Everything that happened was the conscious choice of the writers. Fantasy has an ableism problem in that it erases disabilities altogether. Paraplegics not getting into positions of power has never been an issue, not in the same way it is for women. Hence why no one is celebrating "Bran the Broken" but are instead criticizing the show's handling of the character. But she didn't and nobody suggested her. There wasn't a hint that she was up for the role. The show made it very clear who the person of ultimate power was: Bran. He's the King of Westeros. Again, the Iron Throne was the prize through all 8 seasons. The North's independence was meaningless unless the crown agreed to it (whether by force or other means). The final episode was even called "The Iron Throne". The opposite to whatever it is you think I'm pushing. She was a bad queen and a villain and then she died. Or did you watch a different ending where Cersei ended up as the righteous ruler of the 7K? The episode doesn't support this interpretation at all. Show me a single scene where Bran looked miserable as King. Show me the scene where the council did whatever the fuck they wanted, not caring if Bran agreed to it or not. The bolded is very obviously not true, as he's off to look for a dragon - adventures abound!
  5. Hodor the Articulate

    The Ending Was very conventional

    First of all, imperialism is the expansion of one nation's power over another's. That doesn't describe anything that happens in the series, not even in Meereen. I wish people would stop misusing this term. The North and Dorne are both part of Westeros, and have been for three centuries. They are not third world countries, nor are they under threat of colonialism lol.
  6. Hodor the Articulate

    The Ending Was very conventional

    You said "forcing a non-white leader into a story just for the sake of having a non-white leader isn't good storytelling". Well, who says a non-white leader has to feel forced? I don't think I misrepresented your argument in anyway. The point is what I said originally: a disproportionate amount of fantasy features white male protagonists (let's make that WMP for short). Disproportionate, as in over-represented. Some authors are now making a conscious choice to change this statistic, but there's still a ways to go. I understand that previous works in fantasy, Tolkien in particular, influences how fantasy is written now, but that only explains the lack of diversity in the genre, not why it can't be changed. But it's not always been white men reading fantasy. Post-Tolkien, maybe, but what about the Narnia Chronicles, Lud-in-the-Mist, or any fairytale? Hence, I think the prevalence of WMPs in fantasy is less because publishers want to reflect the readership, and more because (a) it's mostly authored by white dudes, who are more likely to write about characters they relate to, and (b) gender norms mean a male character will be the default protagonist for any story with action/adventure, as all Tolkien inspired works will be. But again, that's just explaining why things are the way it is, not why it must stay that way, especially as the consumers of fantasy are now far more diverse than it was in the 70s and 80s. I already stated the problem with female characters being evil because of their ambition, and being ineffective leaders due to their emotions. It's an overused trope that reinforces real life stereotypes about women in power. There exists no stereotype about men being unworthy of wielding power, period, because it is the norm for leaders to be men. Thus, one man being a crap leader says nothing about men leading, only that person or that personality. But the only way it can be the same for women is if the narrative applauds other women for having the same "flaws" and letting them succeed in leadership (of course, this would make for very muddled messaging). GOT instead doubles down on it's sexist tropes by having two mad Queens and an emotionless dude being the perfect King. And even if you don't care about all that, it's just cliche lazy storytelling. I'm not sure what the amount of time Dany's been a villain, or the popularity of the female characters, has to do with anything. ETA: note that Walter White and DV were portrayed sympathertically. We got to see their descent through their eyes, and they were central to the overall story by the end. Once Dany "turned", we only saw her through the perspective of other characters, and she was more or less tossed aside after her death. Why do you insist on pretending like these characters exist in a vacuum? Like the characters are the way they are because of coincidence, and not because somebody wrote them that way? GRRM's Arya never disparaged femininity or her gender - "the woman is important too!" - and she hated being called a boy. It was a choice of the show's writers to portray Arya as the opposite. It wasn't even to framed as Arya having internalized misogyny, as GRRM did with Cersei. They had our hero spout anti-women sentiments, unchallenged. The show's other more masculine female characters (Yara, Brienne) also insulted women, where their book counterparts always respected them. Because medieval Europe had nothing but white men? Both the books and the show have characters of all backgrounds, as you've already mentioned. GRRM himself mused that he could have made the Targs black but that it hadn't occurred to him at the time. They made a choice to have a WMP be the King at the end. Narratively, they aren't equals. What was the thing the show presented as the ultimate prize? What was everyone fighting for? Westeros. Even in-story, Bran ended up with more power than Sansa. He has the bigger army, the bigger land, more money, and more allies. Her queenship was dependent on Bran agreeing. Hence his nod when she made a claim for independence. If having a certain position is "pushing an agenda", then I could claim the same of you. I'm just going to repeat what I said previously: it's clear King of Westeros was the ultimate position. It's a step up from the idea that ONLY men can be put in leadership positions, but getting women into the most powerful roles is still a struggle. Is Brienne or Sansa portrayed as having the most powerful position? No, that's Bran, the person framed as fit to be in the ultimate position of power (and isn't shown struggling at all) as opposed to those crazy Queens. If just having representation is good enough, Cinderella would be completely unproblematic. I mean, she gets to be Queen at the end, and the evil villain, who just happened to also be a power hungry woman obsessed with youth and beauty which is totes ok because some humans are just like that, was also a powerful Queen. What more do you sJeW feminazis want?
  7. Hodor the Articulate

    Discussing Sansa - The Last One: Queen In The North!!!

    I prefer: don't be an arsehole to people who don't deserve it.
  8. Hodor the Articulate

    Discussing Sansa - The Last One: Queen In The North!!!

    Well, Olenna was supposed to be a bitch. I don't think the show wanted us to think the same of Sansa. Her snark was supposed to show what a Strong Female Character she's become. It just came off as rude and condescending, and I would think the same if Arya said the same.
  9. Hodor the Articulate

    The Ending Was very conventional

    I mean, you've sort of answered your own question. ASOIAF features several female protagonists, which is pretty uncommon for the genre. There are POC characters, too - a whole region of them, in fact (the Martells say hi). While there are criticisms that can be made for the depiction of said characters, I think GRRM has shown that there is nothing "forced" about have non-white male protagonists, even in a historical European-inspired setting. India, China, and Japan are not multi-racial nations. English speaking countries are. I think GOT and other popular works like Harry Potter or LoTR (movies and books) debunks the idea that only white dudes can get into fantasy. Have you considered that fantasy typically has white male audiences because of marketing, and not lack of interest? Dany becoming an antagonist changes everything. Themes do matter, despite what D&D claim. What does it say that both women vying for the top job are villains because of their emotions? Women being too emotional for leadership is a nasty stereotype, as is women seeking power being power-hungry, and the show reinforces this stereotype. It is one of many stories that do so. Having Arya kill the NK doesn't change that, nor does it erase her disparaging of femininity throughout the show. You've just reminded me of how terrible the show has handled his disability. Bran the Broken? FFS. Points for not erasing disabilities all together, which is a problem in fantasy, but it doesn't change that he's still another white dude, and white dudes are a dime a dozen in this genre. Sansa isn't his equal at all. She's allowed to be Queen, but over there, as some sort of consolation prize so the showrunners can pat themselves on the back for being sooo progressive. It's clear King of Westeros was the ultimate position. It's a step up from the idea that ONLY men can be put in leadership positions, but getting women into the most powerful roles is still a struggle. I don't think GRRM intends to go the route of the show, or at least not frame events the same way, so my criticism isn't necessarily directed at him. The show's ending sends some very "alt right" messages though. Isolationism, xenophobia... the show justifies these things, intentionally or not. And it's not like these themes didn't exist before Trump. He just embodies them. Hence "Trumpian".
  10. Hodor the Articulate

    Robert Baratheon - Not so bad after all

    You're telling me you wouldn't be able to "perform" with someone you weren't attracted to? Gay people have been reproducing since forever.
  11. Hodor the Articulate

    Robert Baratheon - Not so bad after all

    Renly would have been the best King. All of Robert's charisma and good looks, but without the booze and lack of interest in ruling. Him and Marge would have been fantastic.
  12. Hodor the Articulate

    The Ending Was very conventional

    And having Bran as King wasn't forced? Why would having non-white leaders automatically be bad storytelling?
  13. Hodor the Articulate

    The Ending Was very conventional

    That's not what op was saying at all. The problem is not Bran per se, but media as a whole. It can't be denied that a disproportionate amount of fantasy features white male heroes. So just like any cliche, having yet another one is just... yawn... and it reinforces existing and unfortunate stereotypes. If D&D or Martin wanted this series to embody Trumpian themes, as opposed to sJew PrOPagAndA, that's fine. But people have a right to criticise that. Of course, I don't think it was deliberate at all. D&D just didn't think about the message they were conveying.
  14. Hodor the Articulate

    The "council" was simply a rubber stamp

    If being important to the fight against the zombies and having the ability to kill other lords is the only qualification needed to be on the Great Council, every wildling and every northern lord/soldier should have been there too. And I'm sure the other lords are very pleased that their King gets to be chosen by someone because they can "can slit any of their throats". Did anyone in the south even care about the NK? Hell, even the northerners barely saw him as a threat until the day of battle. I guess you kinda forgot about Yara, just like D&D.
  15. Even in the show, it doesn't work. Robert was a prime example of a King who was terrible for the realm because he had no interest in the role. I believe they even had Varys explicitly say this at one point. I think people can see what they want in the show, but let's not pretend the showrunners weren't more interested in shock value than themes. They even infamously said "themes are for 8th grade book reports".