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Hodor the Articulate

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Everything posted by Hodor the Articulate

  1. Hodor the Articulate

    How were the Targaryens viewed in universe, in westeros and essos ?

    But he'd be losing control of the men he'd hand over to Viserys too, no? I dunno. Viserys mused he'd only need 10,000 well after the marriage, so there obviously wasn't any clear cut deal made. I think Viserys' intentions to reclaim his seat must have been made obvious though, because "promised a crown" keeps being brought up (also because it would have been common knowledge). They must have gone into the arrangement knowing helping Viserys with this goal was expected, just as military alliances would be expected of any arranged marriage. "the Dothraki look on these things differently than we do in the west. I have told him as much, as Illyrio told him, but your brother does not listen. The horselords are no traders. Viserys thinks he sold you, and now he wants his price. Yet Khal Drogo would say he had you as a gift. He will give Viserys a gift in return, yes … in his own time. You do not demand a gift, not of a khal. You do not demand anything of a khal."
  2. Hodor the Articulate

    How were the Targaryens viewed in universe, in westeros and essos ?

    The khal has promised you a crown, and you shall have it." "I was promised a crown, and I mean to have it" And of course, Drogo finally honours his promise to Viserys by giving him a crown made of molten gold. In fairness, there is this: "He will go as soon as he has his ten thousand. My lord husband promised a golden crown" which was said after Viserys said he'd only need 10,000 screamers, but I think the actual promise was a crown. I guess it depends on how Drogo interpreted it, which I don't think is made clear. I guess he was also banking on Dorne and some other Targ loyalists to support his claim too. Then again, nobody ever said Viserys was a great (or even decent) military strategist lol
  3. Hodor the Articulate

    Which of Baratheon brothers you respect the most

    This is the internet. No extroverts allowed.
  4. Hodor the Articulate

    How were the Targaryens viewed in universe, in westeros and essos ?

    I believe the promise to Viserys was a crown. That implies Drogo would fight against Robert for Viserys, which in turn implies he'd go to Westeros.
  5. Hodor the Articulate

    Most likeable child character?

    I dunno. I kinda respect SR for understanding everybody's waiting for him to die, given how sheltered he was. I actually want to see the little weirdo outlast everyone now.
  6. Hodor the Articulate

    How were the Targaryens viewed in universe, in westeros and essos ?

    It's implied. I mean, Drogo's khalasar aren't going to follow anyone but him.
  7. Hodor the Articulate

    Most likeable child character?

    Viserion is a sweetheart
  8. Hodor the Articulate

    How were the Targaryens viewed in universe, in westeros and essos ?

    The only reason Viserys married Dany off to Drogo was to use his men to fight in Westeros. Drogo was taking his sweet time to honor that deal though, until the assassination attempt.
  9. Hodor the Articulate

    How should 'House of the Dragon' go?

    At this point, all I want is for them to give more dimensions to the main players, like Cersei got in GOT (in the early seasons, anyway).
  10. Hodor the Articulate

    House of the Dragon Series Order Announced

    Yes, yes... your rich white girl is better than that other rich white girl. We got the memo. You've cured us of our immoral desire to be entertained by fantasy creatures. We should storm HBO and petition GRRM - demand that they stop romanticising feudalism and unjust power structures by cancelling this show and replacing it with one about a ginger queen and her surveillance state brother instead #lemoncakeFeminism
  11. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany's three betrayals

    I look forward to the Tyrion-Jon romance <3
  12. Hodor the Articulate

    The character assassination of Daenerys

    I disagree with this. Slavery has been a feature Dany's pov from her first chapter, just as the smallfolk have been a large part of Jon's and Arya's (among other characters'). They may serve as a tools for characterisation for our protagonists, but to say that's all they are misses the themes of autonomy and disenfranchisement that they're used to explore. I think you've misinterpreted what Jon represents too, in putting too much significance in his belief in the Old Gods (in contrast to Dany's agnosticism). In ADWD, he's enacting social change in bringing freefolk across the wall. He didn't get stabbed for upholding the status quo. The 90's??? The era of girl power? The idea that hard power is for men and soft power is for women hasn't been an universal view since the 60's. And nobody's saying there's no difference between the sexes - that's a strawman. Anyway, you're projecting your own worldviews onto the author and the series. Viserys was Aerys' heir and he was crowned, which means Dany has a strong claim, even if Rhaegar's children survive. Add to that, book!Jon being legitimate is still a fan theory at this point. There is no conflict between a righteous woman and a rightful man right now, and likely will never be. Besides, the series is against the idea that "rightful" (as in lawful) means worthy.
  13. Hodor the Articulate

    House of the Dragon Series Order Announced

    Dude, we get it. That dead horse is well tenderized now. At some point, you're just going to have to accept a lot more people (including the author) are interested in seeing more of the magical dragon assholes over the magical ice wolf assholes, and they aren't morally inferior for doing so. If you were actually concerned about the TV indoctrinating the kids with the facism, you'd be complaining about the whole series being largely about, and from the pov of, the noble class, and calling for a peasant revolt instead of stanning one of the most rich white girl characters of rich white girl characters in the series.
  14. Hodor the Articulate

    What if the Targaryens still had dragons during Robert's Rebellion?

    I'm sure there was another Targ who was rejected by a dragon... though I may be misrepremembering, and I can't be bothered to slog through WOIAF again to check. Anyway, that's beside the point. The only thing that matters is that people believed it was a dangerous affair, even if it was just propoganda. That's why I asked if there were any dragonriders who were more than a generation away from a Targ. Laena Velaryon was still daughter of a Targ. If dragons stayed within families rather than just with the Targs, then shouldn't there exist a dragonrider who wasn't a child of one? Maybe this an impossible to answer question though, given the Targs' tendency to marry close relatives. I'm not even sure if there were any legit Targ descendants who were not the children of Targs, during the period dragons still existed.
  15. Hodor the Articulate

    What if the Targaryens still had dragons during Robert's Rebellion?

    Again, I'm not trying to refute the possibility that anybody could become dragonriders. I'm just pointing out there are other barriers, like reluctance to try mounting a dragon because of the potential dangers, even for Targs. I find it unlikely the Targs were giving out dragons to extended family, let alone encouraging them to become dragonriders. Their children? Sure, but it would be giving away too much power to be allowing any further generations access to dragons unless they married back into the Targ family. But as I said, I'm sure Robert would have been reckless enough to take a dragon for himself during war (maybe even before that). Stannis, I'm so sure about.
  16. Hodor the Articulate

    What if the Targaryens still had dragons during Robert's Rebellion?

    Were there ever any dragonriders who were more than a generation away from a Targ (other than the Dragonseeds, who claimed to be bastards of Targs, anyway)? I'm not saying it would be impossible for extended family members to claim dragons, but it seems they would have been less inclined to try because of the risks involved. It's plausible Robert would have impulsively jumped onto a dragon during war though.
  17. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    I, too, would be surprised. If Martin is making a point about power, I'd argue that it's not who should wield it but what should be done with it. And it's pretty clear to me he thinks we should use power to free slaves and give more power to smallfolk.
  18. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    To the bolded - yes. Have you read Steven Attewell's analysis of this on Tower of the Hand? He points out the parallels between the Sons of the Harpy and the Klan, like how both groups target freedmen who were "rising above their station". I actually think Dany did ok in some ways. Her securing a trade agreement with Lhazar was a good move. But dealing with the slavers is where she crumpled and really showed her inexperience. A model city with no slavery already exists. It's called Braavos. And just across a sea, there's a whole continent where there's no slavery. Slavers Bay wasn't the centre of the slave trade because they lacked good role models, and Yunkaii and Volantis, etc aren't going to give up slaving just because this one shitty city became slave-free. What a weird argument to make. Anyway, the re-opening of the fighting pits, among other things, shows the city was regressing. Any incrementalism was in a direction the slavers favoured. People upthread have responded to the Jaehaerys part better I could have, so I'll just refer you to their posts. Well, no one needs to be told that feudalism sucked but that's still a theme explored in the series. You don't like it? Take it up with GRRM. I will say though, given some of the things that's been said in this thread, it seems there are people who need to be reminded that slavery is bad and the Civil War was good. "Man wants to be the king o’ the rabbits, he best wear a pair o’ floppy ears" Out of context, you could say "floppy ears" simply represents assimilating with her people, but when the rabbits are slavers, it means becoming a slaver. That's obviously in direct conflict with her desire to protect her freedmen - her Mhysa side. "Floppy ears" was not positive symbol. Thus, she will once again be Dragon and Mhysa, as she once was before she donned the floppy ears, because she can't be Mhysa while suppressing her literal and figurative dragon. Whether that will be relevant to whatever happens in Westeros (and how) remains to be seen. I can't say what future plans GRRM might have for his characters, but I'm fairly certain he's saying slavery has no merits, not asking us to debate the merits of slavery.
  19. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    Agreed. The type of resistance she will experience in Westeros will be different to that of SB, since her goal there will be to claim the IT, not to bring about social change (not at first, anyway).
  20. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    But slavery didn't end, did it? A slave market was operating right outside the city walls. Even within Meereen, the Great Masters were slowly reintroducing the old ways, starting with the fighting pits. That's how Tyrion, who was enslaved at the time, got into Meereen, remember? This city was heading in a direction the GM favored even before Volantis was a factor. Calling this success is like calling the Targs successful during Robert's Rebellion because Randyll Tarly won that one battle. Actually, it's not even that since Dany lost ground. I think the ultimate takeaway from this arc is that war against slavery is a worthy war. It's what Dany realises in the Dothraki sea, as she goes back to the way she was before the start of this arc, back to being Dragon and Mhysa... and no floppy ears. You may not like that conclusion but, well, GRRM isn't writing for you.
  21. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    Which is similar to what happens in Westeros. The losing side gets stripped of their lands (and titles? I can't remember is that happens too), which get distributed among the victors. I believe Ran said GRRM was referring to characterisation when he said those essays got it right, so what he thought about Feldman's analysis of the theme of slavery is very much up in the air. In fact, we know his interpretation of Meereen as an allegory of Iraq is wrong, as GRRM has twice denied intentionally making any such connection. Who said Dany's choices don't have consequences? They obviously do. Her failure to fully disempower the Great Masters lead to the Harpy's Sons, and her compromises have allowed the restoration of slavery in some form, as well as the re-establishment of power of the GM through Hizdahr. This isn't a successful path for Dany. That doesn't mean the overall message of the series is no compromise, blood and fire. But in this particular situation, it applies.
  22. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    It's very bodice-ripper-y though. And the latter books set in the Americas draaaag for me, mostly because of the addition of some very bland characters. But I won't go on about it in this thread. I think we've already been shown in ADWD that comprising with slavers when you're trying to abolish slavery is futile. So yeah, I don't see how else this plot could be wrapped up without the eradication of slaver "culture". Dany's first mistake in Meereen was allowing the ruling class to keep their wealth and status.
  23. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    I will never forgive Sam for leaving Aemon out in the rain. Then again, his advice to Jon wasn't entirely helpful.
  24. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    I've already read the Meereenese Blot, thanks. First of all, the author of those essays is not GRRM so why are you quoting them a if they've already read TWOW? Second, I think they're wrong. As I alluded to before, Dany's marriage to Hizdar and her massive concessions to the slavers hasn't created real lasting peace (and what respite they've given her came at the cost of restoring Great Masters almost to their former status). The Volantis fleet is still heading to Meereen, and not to throw Dany a fighting-pit-grand-reopening bash. As @SeanF said, Dany is an existential threat to them. She's a threat to anyone who stands to profit from the slave trade, and that's a good chunk of the continent. I never said the slavers were homogeneous. I'm just not going to entertain the idea that the Great Masters don't want their slaves back, or that they'd have peacefully co-operated had Dany just not punished the poor misunderstood woobies for crucifying over 100 children.
  25. Hodor the Articulate

    Dany and child murder

    Yes, I'm sure if she just, like, asked them to end slavery nicely, they totally would've. Like, the only reason Volantis and Qarth are still sending warships out, even after Dany married Hizzy and made several compromises to the Great Masters, is because their bro Meereen is, like, totes embarrassed. They don't even care about having slaves. Slavers just want dignity #respect4slavers
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