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Yoren Luck

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  1. I've been wondering this myself. Lord Okra is like the only one defending this scene on this thread, and is so steadfast in that defense that their conviction seems fake in the wake of the 40+ pages of criticisms (large and small) As a debate thread, this thing is going nowhere because the majority of posters are in agreement that the scene was ridiculous, and the small but vocal minority that are not in agreement but still posting in this thread are not bending an inch despite many, many good points being raised by the majority. Honestly it feels like this thread has reached the 'agree to disagree' point. the plot that drove the scene was contrived, the scene had to used several contrived elements for it to be successful, and most viewers recognize that. the ones that don't are never going to, so as a debate thread this thing is dead in the water
  2. NO IT IS NOT! You are still misinterpreting the usage of the work 'introduce' despite my having explained that this does not mean 'newness' to the story. It stems from the literal definition and original usage of the term, where the character/prop was 'introduced' into the scene from above via a crane or other mechanism rather than being introduced from stage left or stage right. 'Introduced' in this sense meaning how the character/prop was physically brought onto the stage. It does not mean this was an 'introduction' of a new and unexpected character to the audience. It can be a character that is entirely new to the play, such as a god that comes down seemingly out of nowhere to fix something, but it does not have to be. It just has to be a character that is not previously involved in or previously discussed in the scene or in any preceding scenes that led to the unexpected resolution. A deus ex machina does not require the introduction of an entirely new character to the story. It refers to the mechanism that is used to introduce a character into a scene. A character that already exists in the story can still be 'introduced' into a scene where their involvement is entirely unexpected, in order to resolve a situation that appears to be unable to be resolved. You need to understand that the work references how the character is brought into the scene, now that the character is new to the story. Gandalf's eagle rescue of Frodo at the end of LOTR is a classic deus ex machina, yet we know these eagles exist in this universe, both from the Hobbit and from references/scenese in earlier books of the LOTR trilogy. The most blatant examples I can remember are that the eagles save Gandalf from the tower at Isengard, and transport him to Rohan. The head eagle also saves Gandalf from the mountain where he basically died fighting the Balrog. These eagles are then used to save Frodo and Sam. This was the last of several times they are referenced or used as a plot device in the overall story, but is still a classic deus ex machina because it was an unexpected resolution to that scene. The eagles had not been previously discussed as a possible exit strategy by Frodo and Sam, we did not see Gandalf preparing to have them used in such a way, and we did not seem them anywhere near Mount Doom in any preceding scene that might allude to the fact that they were ready to help. The were 'introduced' into this scene to resolve an unsolvable issue as a dramatic and unexpected solution - a deus ex machina.
  3. I said this earlier, so I will respond. Samwell told the maesters that the realm respects their opinion, and if they said this was an issue, people would listen and act accordingly. The maesters responded by saying it could be a plot to undermine Cersei, and that they needed more proof. That is why the told Sam they would write again to Winterfell for clarification...to see if this was some sort of mistake or overreaction or if they could read more into the situation and see if it is all some ploy. Bringing a wight to the Citadel and telling the head Maesters there is 100,000+ more north of the wall, they are nearly impossible to kill, and they are coming this way would go a long way towards giving them that clarification.
  4. Agreed! The fact that there is like 4 pages of debate in this thread over the definition of 'deus ex machina' is all the proof anyone should need that this episode had some serious issues. For the record, the origin of the term and most literal definition is the unexpected usage of a god to resolve a plot, by suspending a character or representation of that god over the stage/arena, using a crane or similar device during a Greek or Roman performance. Hence the literal translation "god from a machine" (the god character/prop was lowered using a machine). Merriam-Webster's definition for this literal usage is "a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome." Having the word 'introduction' in this definition does not mean 'this is the first we ever see or hear of this character'. It means 'this character is being introduced onto the stage via a crane, as opposed to introducing them from stage left or stage right. This is not a debatable point. The Merriam-Webster definition as it relates to modern usage is "a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty". Again, having the phrase "appears or is introduced" in this definition does not mean 'this is the first we ever see or hear of this character or thing'. It means the character or thing is brought into the story in a sudden or unexpected manner. This is not a debatable point. In both of these definitions, the word 'introduced' refers to how the character or thing enters the scene or stage, not that it is the first time we are being introduced to that character or thing. The word 'introduced' on its own has multiple meanings, but the meaning with respect to the phrase 'deus ex machina' stems from it's most literal and original definition/usage, meaning 'entering the stage'. Uncle Benjen coming to save the day is absolutely a 'deux ex machina' both when he helps Bran and when he helps Jon. This is also not a debatable point. If you want to debate something regarding Savior Benjen, you can debate whether we should be calling Jon's rescue a "part deux ex machina" or a "dos ex machina" since this is the second time the show runners have used the same contrived solution to the same problem because they are now apparently even too lazy to write new contrived solutions.
  5. 1.) Because Jorah is a longstanding ally and trusted adviser who would not mislead her regarding something this serious, and because he was told this information from a man who was saving his life, who had absolutely no reason to lie to him about any of it and already established that he respected the hell out of his father, and because this would be the second time Dany received the exact same information and hearing it from Jorah would be a confirmation that Jon is not some crazy northerner and his motivations in trying to convince her of the danger are valid. 2.) At Eastwatch Jon admits that they need the wight to convince both queens: Cersei and Dany. She already doesn't believe him in the show version, and let him go for a bad reason. In fact, after talking to Tyrion about it, she seems to think the whole endeavor is little more than a stupid attempt of Jon's to show he is heroic so she falls in love with him.
  6. LOL, same with the one addressed to Casterly Rock, Storms End, Highgarden, Riverrun, Horn Hill, and all parts Dorne. The one sent to the Vale was automatically forwarded to Winterfell. I'm sure there's other houses/castles I am forgetting that are also vacant
  7. I agree I think Jaime will be convinced. I think Jaime has been convinced the Lannisters are going to lose since he saw a dragon and realized the power of Dany's forces. I also think he has been reassessing his impressions of Tyrion since learning from Olenna that he didn't murder Joffrey. But I don't think any viewer of the show expects Cersei to be convinced, which is what makes the plot so unbelievable. And I don't think Cersei is going to hand Jaime the tattered remnants of the Lannister army to march north to fight the dead. If she does, it will be as a ruse only, to buy more time to get the Golden Company to Westeros. So the magnificent 7 risk losing the King in the North and a handful of other prominent characters and end up losing a dragon, in order to gain a capable general and perhaps a small contingent of Lannister soldiers. It doesn't add up to me. Also, its not queen of the ashes if Dany lands in Kings Landing, and gives an impassioned speech to the people of Flea Bottom telling them to rise up against the evil queen and overthrow her so Dany can rule them more justly and actually help them. All she'd have to do is melt the gates, burn a few guards, and wait. Why does the KILL THE MASTERS plotline work in Essos but a KILL THE QUEEN plotline can't worn in Westeros? You are talking about a woman who used an impassioned speech, a show of force, and a demonstration of her power to overthrow thousands of years of enslavement. These same elements would undoubtedly work to muster a popular uprising in Kings Landing. Don't believe me? Ask yourself why is it that Hot Pie of all people knows that Cersei blew up the Sept of Baelor (the Vatican of Westeros) along with dozens of lords and hundreds of important people including a Queen that actually cared about the poor, but no one in Flea Bottom seems to know or care? The answer is that the plot demands it, just like the plot demands the Dany lose half her alliances and inexplicably isn't allowed to direct any effort to taking Kings Landing. Honestly, after the blowing up of the Sept, the people in Flea Bottom should have already been uprising. Instead they are for some unknown reason totally on her side and cheering for her, despite being the same people that were throwing garbage and rotting food and flopping their dicks at her just a little while ago. King's Landing should be a tinderbox but instead it seems the common folk are more on board with the royalty than ever before, which is simply not plausible given how the show has previously established these same people and their opinions regarding the ruling class.
  8. Of all the criticisms I've felt and read this past episode, the decision to send Gendry as the runner instead of someone else has the least amount of credibility (IMO). I agree that Jon and everyone else undoubtedly would have seen him as having the best endurance for running given his age and shape. I mean, Jon can't abandon the men, Jorah is an older guy, the Hound is an older guy and has been ravaged by battle, Beric and Thoros are older and Thoros is a drunk and Beric is virtually undead himself. Tormund may have been the most logical choice given he is from the north and is tough as nails, but why would Jon send his BFF and a great warrior in Tormund away from the battle when he could send Gendry, who's fighting abilities are unknown to Jon. They can't send away redshirts because then they don't have redshirts to kill in the battle for the sake of suspense. This actually made sense in-story. It was everything else that didn't.
  9. If this was the case, they would have taken the wight to the Citadel and had the Archmaester send ravens to every castle and keep in the realm. Samwell even mentions that the maesters have this authority, and if they got on board with acknowledging the threat, everyone in Westeros would follow suit. Also, (and i feel like I have summarized this already in several threads) there is no "rest of the realm" in this story anymore. There are the kingdoms and forces currently aligned with Dany/Jon/Sansa, and there is the Lannisters. Every other major region/kingdom/place worth mentioning has been eliminated from the story BEFORE the wight hunt even took place...Unless you think Dorne is going to send an envoy to this council at Kings Landing, which I think is highly doubtful considering what happened the last time they sent an envoy to Kings Landing. Dorne is quite literally the only region that has not either had its army wiped out, or already committed its army to one of the two sides in play. Everywhere else should be devoid of able-bodied fighters and half the continent has already been ravaged by the previous wars/battles. Edit: technically they actually already did commit their army to Dany, but the loss of leadership is what has removed them from the story
  10. The show even hinted at this in this season's episode 2 (or 3?) when Cersei gets the sand snakes via Euron. Euron tells Jaime he loves the praise of the crowd and Jaime says something like they can turn on you any moment. I forget the exact lines but they definitely dropped a major hint that the people of Kings Landing are powerful enough (in mob form) to overthrow any ruler. If Dany rolled up in a dragon, blew a little fire at the gate to the Red Keep, and said the westeros equivalent to "kill the masters" that city would have been hers in an hour. They could have even designed a side plot with Davos/Varys/Tyrion working to smuggle weapons in to arm the people of Flea Bottom, and had Gendry involved as well (dude does make weapons after all). Every single aspect of Dany's "conquest" feels contrived when you acknowledge just how superior her forces are compared to the rest of Westeros, and the nuclear option that having three dragons actually means.
  11. The easiest fix to avoid this is to portray Dany as still having some skepticism of the existence of this army, the scale of it, the actual threat, etc etc. Then you have Jorah show up from the Citadel AFTER Jon and company leave, not before. Jorah tells Dany he was healed by a maester in training from the Nights Watch, who told him there is a massive army of the dead descending upon Westeros and that the only way to kill them is to use weapons made of dragonglass or valyrian steel. This confirms to Dany all of what Jon said to her and is delivered by a source she knows and trusts (at least she trusts now). You then show a quick cut to Dany looking worriedly at Tyrion, and a cut to Tyrion looking worriedly back at Dany, and have Dany tell Tyrion something like "i've just sent those men to their deaths, haven't I?" Then you show a quick scene of her racing to her dragons while Tyrion is trying to convince her to stay, followed by her giving the usual "i'm no longer listening to what you have to say, Tyrion" type attitude, and whisk her off to north of the wall. Set it up so she arrives after Jon and company make contact with the dead army, and have them all running frantically away from the dead but losing ground and losing redshirts as they go. then Boom, she appears, roasts hundreds of them to save the day. Have someone with Jon snap and bag a wight and throw it onto Drogon. Have the Night King take out Viserion as they are all climbing onto Drogon. AND if you absolutely have to, invent the same peril for Jon and have Benjen come save him after Dany and company take off. Night King get his dragon, Dany gets her proof, company gets a wight, Jon gets saved by Benjen...all of the same elements, none of the ridiculous aspects. you can have the scene with Jon and Jorah talking about Longclaw either on the boat ride back (if you have Jorah accompany Dany on the rescue mission) or back at Dragonstone (i.e. when they meet the first time, which is exactly when that should have happened)
  12. Honestly though almost everything they did up to the Red Wedding was pretty stellar in my book. I wish they would have handed the reigns to other people to carry out the last few seasons since it seems like that getting to that shock moment was their own personal endgames for the story. It is not uncommon for a show with many seasons to go through several showrunners. Walking Dead has gone through a few and I'm sure I can think of a few more if I had to put my mind to it. There would have been no shame in them walking away after that landmark moment in TV.
  13. I was responding to the post above, which now in light of your post just makes my head spin. Honestly I can't rectify in my mind how show defenders can on one hand excuse criticisms of the show because they are the result of the source material not being complete, and on the other hand say that people aren't allowed to criticize the show for not following the source material. WHICH ONE IS IT? I'm sorry for bringing book plot points into a show forum and i guess inadvertently making you read some of the source material. I won't quote the books again, didn't realize that was an issue. Also I want to say that I do not think the show is bad per se. I enjoy watching the show for what it is, and I agree it makes for great television and will go down in history as a top show of all time. These are not points I have ever commented against. But it baffles me that so many continue to defend it unconditionally after such a noticeable drop in quality over the past few seasons. It hasn't made it unwatchable, but there are so many plot holes now compared to the first few seasons, almost no characters have developed in any meaningful ways in two years, the political intrigue and devious planning/deception/trickery from early seasons is all but gone, and the pacing has ramped up to the point that things are moving from one major event to another to another with little else happening. It was the minor details and minor events and world building and character development that made the show what it is, and now it is the massive battles and incredible CGI that seem to sustain that popularity. That is fine, but I think there is plenty of room for criticism and I don't understand why people get so triggered when posters on this forum raise valid points about logical inconsistencies and plot holes in the show.
  14. You can count me as one of the people who see both D&D and GRRM as partly at fault for why the quality of the show has dropped off in recent seasons. But being sarcastic about D&D not being able to follow the source material for TWOW and ADOS faithfully because these books are not finished is disregarding the fact that they were already deviating quite a bit from the source material from books 4 and 5. Even if you want to argue that it is best for them to have removed fAegon and UnCat from the show, there are clear instances where plots in the book are markedly better than the nearly exact plots in the show. For instance, Book Arya's first FM assignment in Braavos was remarkably done in the books, in which she is given an ugly girl face and tasked with giving the gift of death to a snakey ship merchant/insurance salesmen type. I won't spoil it but the way she kills him is a clever and well done scene. This was cut altogether in the show, so we as the audience don't learn how resourceful discrete she is in giving 'the gift'. Furthermore, they cut her wolf dreams and all implications that she can warg. Warging a cat was basically how she got out of being blind in the book. In the show, she was blinded as a punishment for killing Meryn Trant. In the book this is just part of the training to hone her skills - not a punishment, and discretely warging a cat to see while she was blind was basically a believable explanation that GRRM gave readers to account for her super-fast acceptance and advancement in the faceless men (she tricked them using a hidden Stark power she didn't even really understand). Show Arya's training in Braavos basically boils down to her being beat with a stick and tortured by the waif and somehow through all of this she becomes the world's finest assassin. And by cutting her wolf dreams we lost a lot of her connection and identity as a stark, with this only being represented in her time in Braavos by her keeping Needle. In the book Arya manages to become 'No One' while still retaining her Stark identity and her connection to her direwolf. In the show, she has become 'No One' but is being portrayed as a godless killing machine who has really lost a lot of her Stark identity and lost her connection to Nymeria. These are unnecessary changes that could have been adapted verbatim from the book in the same number of scenes, or perhaps just a few more. And it is totally ignoring the most blatant issue many people have with her time in Braavos in the show, which is that after becoming this super good assassin and knowing full well the FM are going to be after her for leaving, she still lets her guard down and nearly gets killed by the Waif. This scene was so poorly received that it spurred a number of fan theories to try to explain that what happened was more than meets-the-eye, after which the director had to go on record saying nope, "she was just being an idiot' http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-director-confirms-arya-was-just-being-an-idiot-in-braavos-scenes-a7082976.html And that is just one small segment of Arya's storyline, and Arya is just one character of a dozen or more characters in this show that could have been adapted more closely to source material that is already published. Jaime's arc in particular was butchered in the show compared to where he is at as a character by Book 4. The Sansa/Littlefinger/Vale storyline was poorly done and required the invention of a cartoon character villain in Ramsey Bolton, and was so off track from the Bolton/Winterfell material in the books that I am still wondering where this is all leading to a full season after Winterfell has been reclaimed by the Starks. I know GRRM is partly at fault, as I stated above, but D&D took some serious creative license with the show by season 4 and really messed up a lot of character development and character storylines. These characters all may end up where they need to be in the long run, which for the show is fine i guess, but your remark about this not being their tale is just not true. By season 7, over half of what we have seen is largely of their own making using characters and a world and a rough outline developed by GRRM. It is little more than poorly done Fan Fiction dialogue with a huge CGI budget. One final divergence that still pisses me off involves the Hound's character. Not that I don't love his character in the show - he is probably my favorite at this point to be honest. But when he resurfaces in the Riverlands after fleeing Kings Landing, we find with him a 'Brother Ray' played by Ian McShane. Brother Ray is based off of Book Septon Meribald, who is famous for giving one of the best monologues in the entire series in my opinion. The show adapted this monologue in the episode 'The Broken Man' which was named after the premise of this speech, which in book form was the following: “Ser? My lady?” said Podrick. “Is a broken man an outlaw?” “More or less,” Brienne answered. Septon Meribald disagreed. “More less than more. There are many sorts of outlaws, just as there are many sorts of birds. A sandpiper and a sea eagle both have wings, but they are not the same. The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord. They are evil men, driven by greed, soured by malice, despising the gods and caring only for themselves. Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They’ve heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know. “Then they get a taste of battle. “For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they’ve been gutted by an axe. “They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that’s still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water. “If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they’re fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it’s just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don’t know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they’re fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world… “And the man breaks. “He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them…but he should pity them as well.” When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, “How old were you when they marched you off to war?” “Why, no older than your boy,” Meribald replied. “Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he’d stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape.” “The War of the Ninepenny Kings?” asked Hyle Hunt. “So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was.” Now the Show Version - - - RAY: I was a soldier once. All my superiors thought I was brave. I wasn’t. I mean, I never ran from a fight. Only because I was afraid my friends would see I was afraid. That’s all I was, a coward. We followed orders no matter the orders. Burn that village. Fine, I’m your arsonist. Steal that farmer’s crops. Good, I’m your thief. Kill those young lads so they won’t take up arms against us. I’m your murderer. I remember once a woman screaming at us, calling us animals as we dragged her son from their hut. But we weren’t animals. Animals are true to their nature and we had betrayed ours. I cut that young boy’s throat myself as his mother screamed and my friends held her back. That night...I felt such shame. Shame was so heavy on me, I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t sleep. All I could do was stare into that dark sky and listen to that mother screaming her son’s name. I’ll hear her screaming the rest of my life. Now, I know I can never bring that lad back. All I can do with time I’ve got left is bring a little goodness into the world. That’s all any of us can do, isn’t it? Never too late to stop robbing people, to stop killing people. Start helping people. (Stares at the Hound) It’s never too late to come back. The drop-off in quality from book monologue to show monologue is immense and there is no reason for it. GRRM literally wrote the scene for them. They even named the damn episode 'The Broken Man' but failed to use the term in Brother Ray's speech. I'm sorry but this is one of a hundred such instances where the book dialogue is more impactful than the show dialogue. Septon Meribald's speech talks of the human cost of war, the human experience of it, the futility of it. It is an embodiment of "THE WHEEL" that we keep hearing needs to be broken by Dany. Ray's speech just tells Sandor "hey dude, I also did bad things once but if you do good things now it helps you live with it" You can't tell me Ian McShane couldn't have delivered the book monologue. Dude is an Actor. And then to add insult to injury, the f'ing guy gets killed like a minute later.
  15. I get this point. My point is there really are no other forces in the realm. Let me explain: The Lannister army just crushed the Tyrell army and rest of the forces at Highgarden. Highgarden was taken and plundered, and the Tyrells are a vanquished house. A number of their bannermen including the Tarlys had already defected. Their remaining forces were wiped out in the battle for Highgarden. This removes the kingdom of The Reach from the story. No more armies in The Reach. The same Lannister army that took Highgarden then got crushed by Dany at the battle of the Loot train, and she forced all the survivors to convert to her side. That army was the 10,000 Lannisters from Casterly Rock (Kingdom of the Westerlands) minus a small contingent that they had left at the Rock to fight the Unsullied, plus whatever forces the Tarlys commanded. they are all gone or defected to Team Dany. Those Lannister forces left at Casterly Rock have been all killed by the Unsullied. The Westerlands is therefore without a Lannister army. The Riverlands is basically without leadership now that the Tullys and Freys are gone. If there are armies here, it is the scattered remnants of Lannister and Frey forces following the previous war between Stark and Lannister. In other words, it is a small contingent of soldiers who are merely holding the castles/keeps. No large standing army is here anymore. The reason we know this is because it has been established that you don't need a large army here to protect yourself from the north because all you really need is a force large enough to sustain a siege at the Twins. We also know the Riverlands were ravaged by war so supporting a large army there in perpetuity is impossible right now. Plus we haven't heard of any sizable Lannister or pro-Lannister forces there in ages. So at this point in the story, Dany/Jon alliance control the armies from North and the Vale and have removed the Westerlands from the story (via taking Casterly Rock). Dorne is established as out of the contest, but even if they aren't, they were already aligned with Dany and not Cersei. The Reach is done. The Stormlands haven't been mentioned in seasons but House Baratheon is vanquished so there are no armies left here. Cersei sort of controls the Iron Islands through an uncertain alliance with Euron, and has a grip on the Riverlands. She also controls the Crownlands, although Dany has Dragonstone and a massive army with dragons at her doorstep. The Lannisters have no army left, which is why they are trying to hire sellswords. I'm sure the show runners are going to have invented a 50,000 strong Lannister Army conveniently chilling at Kings Landing for the next episode because that is how they fill plot holes, but in reality, Cersei has no army left to speak of. Jon can want all the realm's forces, but through the alliance with Dany, he basically already has that...All except for maybe a small contingent of lannister/tarly forces in Kings Landing (at most), small remnants of Riverlands forces, and the Ironborn (who aren't really fully aligned with Cersei until Euron gets his marriage proposal). After reading this, please explain to me exactly how many soldiers Cersei controls in the North, the Vale, the Riverlands, the Iron Islands, the Westerlands, the Crownlands, the Stormlands, the Reach, and Dorne that Jon is going to win over through an alliance with Cersei? Now explain to me how Cersei is such a threat right now that they needed a wight hunt to convince her to join their side? What they needed was some clever planning by Varys and Tyrion to reallocate the Iron Bank's finances from Lannister to Targaryan following a discussion they should have had in which they realize this is Cersei's only option for continuing the war. But you know, political intrigue and clever planning to outmaneuver your opponent is not a hallmark of this show anymore. No, we get contrived wight hunts to convince a non-factor in Cersei that fighting an army she isn't going to care about is more important than the only thing in the world she has ever cared about (the iron throne). Just the fact that I have to spell out for you that there are no human armies left in westeros aside from what Dany controls is a testament to how poor the writing is this season. In the past, you'd have at least one or two lines from Tywin talking about how fucked they are.