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devilish

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  1. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    Its all conspiracy theory of course and GRRM might have made a blunder on this. However I find it very very difficult to believe that a 15 year old girl will flee Winterfell, travel alone for miles and miles of land administered by so many lords, then enter the Riverlands and make her way to Harrenhal without being spotted. Her father would surely notice her not being around and would order his best trackers to find his daughters. The North would go into full red alert making it impossible for a lonely noble girl to past through that layers of security without being spotted. We have proof to that later in the books. Cat Tully was older then her, she wasn't being searched and knew the South much more then the she wolf did and yet she was spotted twice, first when entering KL and then in the inn at the crossroads. Arya was protected by way better people then Lyanna was (who went solo) but ended up first captured by Lannister men and then by Sandor Clegane. Not to forget that the Riverlands were pro Stark. There was much bigger chance for good old Hoster or one of his Lords to find Lyanna and send her packing back to Winterfell then for Rhaegar to spot her and take her to Dorne. Yet, Lyanna was lucky/unlucky enough to be spotted by Rhaegar first who happened to be travelling there alongside 2 KG. Considering the ridiculously long distance between KL and Winterfell its pretty obvious that Lyanna had help. Winterfell was pretty isolated so a Southern messenger would be spotted miles away especially if he dares speaking with Rickard's kid. We must presume that the two 'lovebirds' communicated through ravens. We all know who takes of that and how much influence the old maester had on Rickard. Considering that a- the North didn't go to full lock down when Lyanna vanished b- Lyanna managed to cover so many miles without being spotted c- Her timing was impeccable (Rhaegar seem to be waiting for her) d- Rickard was quite nonchalant about Lyanna's kidnap Then we can presume that he knew exactly what was going on and was quite happy about it. Regarding Brandon....well, the boy was hardly the brightest person around and at the time he was very busy playing bf and gf with Barbrey and most possibly half a dozen other girls. So its possibly that Rickard decided to keep him in the dark on that one (which explains why the wild wolf went to KL and made a fool of himself). Same thing can be said about the so much righteous Ned who was tucked in the Vale at close proximity to Robert B. So lets make a list of events removing Brandon's arrest out of the equation - Aerys insults Tywin enough for the old lion to resign from HOTK and retire in CR - Jon A take Ned and Robert as wards - Rickard accepts Brandon's bethonal to Cat and Lyanna's bethonal to Robert - Rhaegar make preparations for a coup. Meeting place Harrenhal - Ashara Dayne play Ned like a flute. - Aerys gatecrashes the meeting. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna queen of beauty - A year later Lyanna teleports herself in front of Harrenhal. Rhaegar flees to Dorne with her - Rhaegar returns to the Riverlands with Lyanna and a dragon/wolf pup at her breast. Hoster (whose now family since his daughter is married to Rickard's son) act as an intermediary between the wolf and the crown prince. Sir Arthur offer a marriage between Ashara and Ned as a sweetener. Rickard has 'no choice' but to accept their union - The Martells play the victim card and push Aerys to do something. The mad king give more power to Lewyn Martell, thinking that they are at his side. Instead Leywn Martell uses such power to make Elia and her children escape to Dorne. - Rhaegar call the banners. The North, the Riverlands and Dorne answer his call. Aerys orders Ned's execution dragging the Vale into war. Jon A arrest Robert forcing the Stormlands to stay neutral - Surrounded by Dorne in the South, the Riverlands in the North and the Vale at the east, Mace decides not to charge into battle. Aerys is dethroned and Rhaegar takes his place. - Rhaegar revert the rules of marriage. He marries Lyanna who becomes queen at par to Elia and Jon becomes third in line to the throne. Unfortunately an ignorant Brandon gatecrashed everything and as you said, Rickard ended up underestimating Aerys (who, in my opinion, saw through this whole charade)
  2. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    pls read my previous post
  3. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    If we rely solely on the timeline then the risk was relatively small. No one called the bannermen because of it. Rickard remained in Winterfell and Robert remained at the Vale. The only person who overreacted was the ‘wild’ wolf. Even then, his backup was relatively small which clearly suggest that his actions weren’t supported by the big houses. The 4 big houses remained loyal throughout Brandon’s arrest and Rickard and Brandon’s execution. They only rebelled when given no choice but to rebel (Aerys couldn’t expect Jon A to break guest rights and he certainly couldn’t expect Ned and Bob to willingly remove their heads from their necks) and even then the Tullys needed ‘persuasion’ and 3 of the 4 houses involved found local opposition. There again, I’m basing my argument on the timeline. We know nothing about what was going behind the scenes and we’ll certainly wouldn’t be able to know the truth considering that all major players are now dead (Jon A, Robert B, Aerys, Rhaegar, Hoster T, Lyanna, Rickard, Brandon and Ned S) While your argument is extremely relevant I do think that it has 1 weakspot. You’re basing the risk around Rhaegar’s actions with little to no care about Rhaegar’s inaction. Aerys was a paranoid and abusive man who treated both Tywin and Rhaella like rubbish. After Duskendale, Rhaegar became his target and Aerys took every opportunity to weaken him and/or provoke him while glorifying Viserys, which, of course, was bad news for Rhaegar. Prior to Lyanna’s ‘kidnap’ Rhaegar was forced into a marriage that automatically stripped him from his biggest ally. His children were being insulted in court, his younger brother was being glorified by Aerys and Elia was fast transitioning from future queen to a glorified hostage. Harrenhal was Rhaegar’s only chance of building up enough allies to be able to dethrone Aerys yet it backfired spectacularly. If Aerys could go in such extent to punish his son merely because he accepted such endorsement then we can only imagine how he would act now, that he’s got a certain reassurance about Rhaegar’s defiance. TBF I find Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s reunion fishy. At the beginning of GOT we see Robert travelling from KL to Winterfell. Robert is a seasoned warrior who’s not particularly obsessed about his own safety (ie he goes hunting for boars while drunk). Yet the man made sure to take a group 300 men strong which included the Hound and Jamie Lannister.Yet we’re made to believe that Lyanna can suddenly pop in near Harrenhal with no military escort and with her father not knowing where the hell she is. Now I acknowledge that Robert was king that he was taking his family with him and that Harrenhal is closer to Winterfell than KL is. However I still struggle to believe how Lyanna could vanish from Winterfell, leave the North, pass through Riverlands territory and meet the crown prince without Rickard being able to track her down. The fact that Lyanna happened to be close to Harrenhal when Rhaegar was there is quite amazing too. It’s evident that the two had planned this before. The answer is how? Winterfell is miles away from KL and the only viable way of communication between the two would be through ravens. Surely Maester Walys would have told Rickard of Lyanna’s silly plot. Unless of course, Walys (whose accused by Barbrey to be the centrepiece of Rickard’s southern ambition plan) knew about it and was quite happy with the plan. Maybe a crown prince was a better option for Rickard’s Southern ambitions then the LP of the smallest and most loyal region in Westeros? Of course Rickard the honourable couldnt afford being portrayed as a man who broke a bethronal simply because there's a better offer on the table. That's unacceptable. However what happens if lets say Lyanna find herself near Harrenhal and the girl ends up fleeing with Rhaegar out of her own free will? Surely that cant be attributed to Rickard. That would explain why Rickard unlike his ignorant son remained so calm about Lyanna’s abduction. It also explains why Rickard was so confident that Aerys would release his boy (they were kind of family now) and why the mad king went so tough against the Starks (he's mad not stupid).
  4. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    Not really. In the medieval time women were considered as an extra mouth to feed. Hence why they were married relatively early. Their parents weren't extensively fussy whom they marry as long as they left the nest. In my country there's a nursery ryhme about a knight and a father negotiating a marriage deal. Its quite creepy considering that most knights in my country were vowed to celebacy. TBF mothering bastards from a knight sworn for celebacy wasn't a bad thing in a society were poverty was rife. I once visited a palace built for one of these ladies. Its a 6 bedroom palace, in a prime location (for the time) and it was surrounded by fields who could easily feed a big family. You're not the only one who studied medieval history What repercussions exactly? Sex between consenting adults is not a crime in GOT. Brandon had sex with Barbrey, Aegon the unworthy had a horde of women of noble descend as paramours, Robert had sex with a Florent girl while half of her clan was present and even LF was able to go in Riverrun, have sex with Lysa and leave with his head still attached to his neck. Robert's rebellion started not because of Rhaegar. In matter of fact Rhaegar had nothing to do with it. It started because Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn break guest rights by executing 2 innocent wards. As good old Winston Churchill said "History is written by the victors". That term is more relevant the more you go back in time, mainly because the media was poorly developed and often controlled by the state. Apart from Robert there is nothing that suggest that Lyanna was kidnapped. If she was then rest assured that history would have remembered him far less kindly then it did. Instead, there's barely any bad word said about him and that include Ned who lost half of his family in that mess. That's true. There again we need to take things into context. The tourney of Harrenhal was meant to be an opportunity for Rhaegar to make enough allies to topple the king. That plan backfired spectacularly. Rhaegar might well have been a wanted man at that point. It was within Rhaegar's interest to lay low and get Lyanna pregnant before returning to public office. Once it was confirmed that Lyanna went with Rhaegar out of her own free will, then the Starks would have no choice but to accept the new circumstances handled to them, same as the Brackens and the Blackwells did before them. Lyanna's future would be tied to Jon's and Jon's future will be tied to that of his father. That's the reason why Ned couldn't spill the beans about JS origins to his best friend. What makes you think that she was a prisoner in the first place? Unlike Elia who was a mere pawn in the mad king's hand, Lyanna was far away from war and surrounded by KG sworn to protect her. Sir Arthur Dayne was possibly the most honourable men in all Westeros (at par with Selmy). I bet Elia would have swapped her position with Lyanna at any time.
  5. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    Yes and no. You're right medieval girls grew faster then modern girls. However, we're talking here about the Starks, specifically Rickard's children (ie the man who produced Brandon 'I challenge the crown prince in his own house' Stark and Ned 'if I spill the beans to Cersei she will just flee to Essos' Stark). We can safely presume that they aren't exactly the apex of diplomacy and strategic thinking. We know so little of Lyanna so we can't really answer to that can we? What we know is that Rhaegar's music made Lyanna cry, which suggest that the crown prince could raise some deep emotions in the girl. We also know that Rhaegar was hot, really really hot + she wasn't happy in marrying Robert. The fact that Ned never said anything against Rhaegar kind of shows that the attraction was mutual. That's a solid possibility, although, tbf, I cant see Rhaegar forcing himself into Lyanna. There's nothing that suggest that he was that type of man. If he did force himself on her then surely Ned would be much more judgemental when discussing about him, which is not the case. As said before, consensual sex between two adults (and the medieval world women became adults when they have their P) is hardly a crime. Both Brandon and Robert had sex with women of noble birth who weren't their wives. The bloodraven was himself a bastard while LF was able to go to Riverrun, have sex with Lysa and leave with his head still attached to his neck. No one ever called the banners for that. In matter of fact Robert was forced to embelish this charade into Lyanna's kidnap. In reality he has no proof to back that. Also note that the one who caused the rebellion was Aerys not Rhaegar. The Vale, North, Stormlands and the Riverlands remained loyal despite a- Lyanna's kidnap b- Brandon's arrest c- Rickard's and Brandon's execution Even then a substantial amount of houses either took Aerys side or stayed neutral. The Tullys remained neutral up until they convinced the Starks and the Arryn to marry their girls. They only rebelled when Jon Arryn was expected to break guest rights and execute 2 innocent warden/LPs. That is what caused the war not Rhaegar
  6. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    @Pikachu101 I agree that she was very immature especially if she's got a similar character to Arya (whom we know tend to hit first and think later). Also, considering Rickard's other offspring (Brandon 'I go in KL alone and challenge the crown prince' Stark and Ned 'I spill the beans to Cersei and expect her to just flee') I doubt that the old man had spent years teaching the complexity of diplomacy either. Hmm....I wouldn't really use modern mentality to judge medieval morality. People used to marry very early those days and with mortality being set so high, no one really bothered about childbirth. I agree, there was a certain low level of manipulation in place. Its very possible that Rhaegar courted Lyanna mainly not because he liked her but because of her father's army. However the manipulation could have been two way. Its very possible that Lyanna saw Rhaegar as her only way out from Robert's marriage. That's the trouble of raising children with a mindset that the whole world owes them everything only to then end up paring them like some sort of cattle. Lyanna had problems accepting that same as Cersei, Lysa, Robert, Robb and possibly Rhaegar TBF though neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna expected the disaster that would happen afterwards. What Rhaegar-Lyanna did was inconvenient but it wasnt a crime. Brandon Stark was doing the same with Barbrey and Robert would do the same with the Florent girl. Also note that unless a- the Lord/Prince/King was an Ahole (ex Roose) b- his wife happens to be very very insecure (Ex Cersei or Cat) Then bastards can carve a good life for themselves. Brandon Snow and the bloodraven are two of many examples to that. I think that JS would be way better off if Robert's rebellion never started in the first. Actually Lyanna got a far better treatment than Elia and her children. I'd rather spend my life at the tower of joy with some of the finest KGs to protecting me then in KL as pawn to Aerys and later on as an obstacle for Tywin and his plans.
  7. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    @YOVMO The respect is pretty mutual mate. Regarding Lyanna. Well we need to take 3 things in consideration here a- Lyanna was around 16 at the time. That's hardly the peak of maturity. b- Rhaegar was hot and he was incredibly persuasive. Cersei once asked "Had any man ever been so beautiful?". Tywin whose always been composed and stirred away from falling into Aerys many provocations threw caution in the wind to endorse the man while Selmy absolutely adored him. If this man could raise such strong emotions in Tywin and in a sour and mature Cersei then imagine what he could do to a 16 year old Stark girl who probably barely ever left the North (the same north whose 'poetry' produced the likes of Roose, Ramsey, Brandon, Greatjon Umber and Ned) c- We know little about Lyanna however, Ned gives us a great insight on that when he likened her with Arya. That's great because we know a hell of a lot about Arya Stark. She's stubborn, strong willed and a rebel. Can you imagine how Arya would react if she's married off like cattle without Ned even bother asking for her consent? So those are the three reasons why I believe Lyanna fled with Rhaegar. She was immature, Rhaegar was incredibly hot and persuasive + she's was being forced into a marriage no one bothered asking her opinion (let alone acting on it) about. There's actually a 4th thing ie she had no idea the big mess she would leave behind. I mean if you have a mad king as a father you wouldn't introduce yourself to a potential girl you want to go out with, with that
  8. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    In her visions Danny sees Rhaegar speaking to Elia and telling her that Aegon was the prince that was promised. Meanwhile Aemon believed that that prince was Rhaegar, something Im pretty sure the old Targ has shared with the crown prince. So if you ask me, I think that the prophecy of the prince to come has little to do with it. It might have affected the return of dragons (3 heads of the dragon) but not the prince that was promised. So why did Rhaegar do it? First of all we need to analyse how terrible Rhaegar’s crime were. According to Robert, the crown prince kidnapped Lyanna. That is indeed terrible. However, there’s nothing in the books that suggest that. Quite contrary, Ned goes quite mild when describing Rhaegar. Which makes me wonder, why the need of such revision of history? The only possible conclusion is that Rhaegar didn’t kidnap Lyanna but she simply went with him out of her own will. Assuming that is indeed the truth then how terrible that is? To answer to that particular question then we might consider shifting our attention to Brandon Stark and Robert Baratheon. After all both had consensual sex with girls of high nobility (Ryswell and Florent) and both got away with it. The Targs themselves had quite a history with paramours. Aegon the unworthy had quite a collection which included a Blackwood and a Bracken. No one rebelled because of it. Even frigging LF the least of all Lords was able to have sex with Lysa and get away with it. You expect Hoster to make sure that the man who soiled his prized asset would lose his head. It wasn’t the case So to answer that particular question, Rhaegar may have caused a diplomatic upset but he didn’t commit a crime. The books kind of back that. In fact, no one called the banners because of Lyanna. They didn’t even called the banners when Brandon went to KL threatening the crown prince either. Robert’s erm actually Jon Arryn’s rebellion started when Aerys expected Jon to break guest rights and execute two innocent people who were under his protection. That’s something Jon couldn’t do. So what caused Rhaegar to cause this diplomatic upset? We need to take in consideration some events that happened during that particular period The deteriorating relationship between Tywin and Aerys The defiance of Duskendale Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia Aerys shunning Rhaenys as she smell too Dornish Aerys obsession with Viserys The tournament of Harrenhal Rhaegar’s fleeing with Lyanna All are closely knit to one another. In Duskendale, Rhaegar was basically crowned by Tywin who endorsed him as a better king to Aerys and urged the royalists to sack the city in total disregard of Aerys safety. That plan was countered by Selmy who went full Rambo and rescued a broken Aerys from sure death. That had a devastating effect on the king. Not only he was taken hostage by his own subjects but he must felt betrayed by the very people he trusted the most. Tywin was Aerys friend, a man, Aerys appointed as HOTK. Rhaegar on the other hand was his son and heir. How could they possibly agree with the sacking of Duskendale? Why didn’t Rhaegar turned down such endorsement? The result to that was pretty clear. Aerys ordered Steffon to go to Essos and find some random girl from Valyrian descend. That was meant to punish Tywin who was desperate to see Cersei marrying Rhaegar and to weaken the crown prince. Ultimately Aerys had to give his go ahead to Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia a physically weak girl with question marks around her whether she can produce any heirs and whose house was unbeatable in Dorne but pretty weak when stepping outside of it. Elia was able to produce two children, one of which a heir. Yet Aegon never liked them. Instead he grew obsessed with Viserys, which of course is bad news for Rhaegar especially considering Aerys descend to violence and madness. We all know that the only way, Aerys golden boy could inherit the crown was to eliminate both Rhaegar and the prince that was promised. So here we are at Harrenhal, a tourney meant for Rhaegar to raise allies against the crown. But to Rhaegar’s despair Aerys finds out, he gatecrash the tourney and Rhaegar is left with nothing apart from the admirations of the Stark girl (whose agenda was to find somebody whose powerful enough to break her future marriage to Robert). That’s a very dangerous situation for Rhaegar to be in. If someone spills the beans regarding the truth about Harrenhal then Rhaegar and possibly his family will be fried meat. Dorne alone won’t be able to stop that. As said, the North is a strange land for the Southerners but one thing is certain. They do love family. That was clear to Rhaegar when he crowned Lyanna lady of beauty. If the Starks can go ballistic on such minor manner then imagine what they would do if let say, Lyanna’s baby is threatened by Aerys. By escaping with Lyanna, Rhaegar achieved two things. He shifted the attention from Harrenhal’s scandal to Lyanna He hoped to bully himself into a possible alliance between the crown prince and the Starks. Once Lyanna is pregnant, Rhaegar and the Stark’s fate were interwined whether Rickard liked it or not.
  9. Renly never met Lyanna and since selfies weren't yet in vogue I doubt that he had a good idea of how she looked apart from the general features (ie brown hair). What Renly was suggesting is more of her character then anything else. Margaery is independent, intelligent and is physically closer to Lyanna then the Lannister viper is. Let us not forget that the young stag was probablyrelying on the heavily romantised version of Lyanna portrayed by Robert, a man who barely knew Lyanna himself.
  10. I think that rumours about Joffrey's and co parentage were slowly but surely creeping in KL and there was a slow buildup going on for it. Surely the lion wouldn't like the end result of that. However if Robert married Margaery then at least 5 (Riverlands, Reach, North, Vale, Stormlands) of the 7 kingdoms would side with the crownlands on it which could easily overwhelm the Westerlands to submission. Its a shame that Ned gatecrashed everything The devil is in the detail though. Unless Cersei was caught in the act, then there's no 100% proof of what she did. That meant a trial which will end up in a trial by combat. In such circumstances whom on earth could take Jamie or the Mountain down?
  11. devilish

    What will happen to Stannis in TWOW?

    True. But I am seeing things from the Mountain clan perspective not from my perspective. The Northerners tend to have a very poor opinion of foreigners (manly because they only fight wildlings and IB who are crap soldiers). The fact that Stannis men are shivering to what the Mountain clans see as a breeze doesn't help
  12. devilish

    What will happen to Stannis in TWOW?

    No one knows how many ships the Vale has. However they don't give the impression to be a naval powerhouse
  13. devilish

    What will happen to Stannis in TWOW?

    Lets say that the Mountain clans does manage to storm Winterfell and kill Roose. What happens next? Would they march South with Stannis with their 3k army to win the IT for him? And what happens if Farya/Arya/Sansa/Bran/Rickon appear and orders them to arrest Stannis? Will they obey Stannis or would they opt for the Farya/Arya/Sansa/Bran/Rickon orders? Will Stannis even dare raising one finger against a Stark right in the middle of the domain? The Mountain clans cant care less of Stannis, his claim, his red priestess, his scarred kid, his barren wife, the few remaining Southron Snowflakes with him or the onion knight. Winter is coming and the South brings only misery. They have more of a chance of saving the North if every single soldier in the North, remains in the North and fights for the North. If Lord Manderly can control Rickon then he might convince them marching South to settle scores with the Freys neighbours but that is it. All those who brought misery to the North ( Balon, Roose, Ramsey, Theon, Joffrey, Asha and Tywin) are either dead or at arm's length to them So will the North go solo? Well I don't think so. Greatjon Umber is an oaf but sometimes even oafs can say something wise ones in their lives "Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead! There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords. The King in the North!" If Danny happens to slumber North then I can see the North bending the knee to her especially if she offers dragon fire in exchange for her support.
  14. devilish

    What will happen to Stannis in TWOW?

    I think its somewhere in the middle. Wyman is loyal to the Starks however he's also loyal to his house. He will make sure he'll end up becoming the king maker + that the North won't go South ever again (At least not beyond the twins)
  15. devilish

    What will happen to Stannis in TWOW?

    I think that the relationship between the Mountain Clan and Stannis is...complicated. The former doesn't see him as their Lord let alone king. All they care about is saving the Ned's daughter and are therefore ready to work with Stannis to achieve that . Meanwhile Stannis is obsessed with a rigid heirarchy. If the Mountain clans see the Southern ladies as a burden then they will abandon them. If Stannis pisses them off then they will probably dig a big axe in his forehead. If Farya or Rickon or Sansa orders them to do that then they will do it without a moment hesitation. The Manderlys are loyal to the Starks. However, the fact that they are Southerners allow them to see things differently. Unlike the Northerners the Manderlys know better. The Lannisters and the Tyrells are not ironborn/wildlings with a different hair colour. They are insanely powerful houses who can raise an army which is way bigger then what the North can master. Going South with Stannis would be suicide and Wyman has lost enough family to risk that again, especially for some Southern king no one really like.Which means that somewhere along the line the Manderlys will make sure that their family ends up on top (marrying the youngest of the Starks?) and Stannis will ends up screwed.
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