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devilish

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  1. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    Its all conspiracy theory of course and GRRM might have made a blunder on this. However I find it very very difficult to believe that a 15 year old girl will flee Winterfell, travel alone for miles and miles of land administered by so many lords, then enter the Riverlands and make her way to Harrenhal without being spotted. Her father would surely notice her not being around and would order his best trackers to find his daughters. The North would go into full red alert making it impossible for a lonely noble girl to past through that layers of security without being spotted. We have proof to that later in the books. Cat Tully was older then her, she wasn't being searched and knew the South much more then the she wolf did and yet she was spotted twice, first when entering KL and then in the inn at the crossroads. Arya was protected by way better people then Lyanna was (who went solo) but ended up first captured by Lannister men and then by Sandor Clegane. Not to forget that the Riverlands were pro Stark. There was much bigger chance for good old Hoster or one of his Lords to find Lyanna and send her packing back to Winterfell then for Rhaegar to spot her and take her to Dorne. Yet, Lyanna was lucky/unlucky enough to be spotted by Rhaegar first who happened to be travelling there alongside 2 KG. Considering the ridiculously long distance between KL and Winterfell its pretty obvious that Lyanna had help. Winterfell was pretty isolated so a Southern messenger would be spotted miles away especially if he dares speaking with Rickard's kid. We must presume that the two 'lovebirds' communicated through ravens. We all know who takes of that and how much influence the old maester had on Rickard. Considering that a- the North didn't go to full lock down when Lyanna vanished b- Lyanna managed to cover so many miles without being spotted c- Her timing was impeccable (Rhaegar seem to be waiting for her) d- Rickard was quite nonchalant about Lyanna's kidnap Then we can presume that he knew exactly what was going on and was quite happy about it. Regarding Brandon....well, the boy was hardly the brightest person around and at the time he was very busy playing bf and gf with Barbrey and most possibly half a dozen other girls. So its possibly that Rickard decided to keep him in the dark on that one (which explains why the wild wolf went to KL and made a fool of himself). Same thing can be said about the so much righteous Ned who was tucked in the Vale at close proximity to Robert B. So lets make a list of events removing Brandon's arrest out of the equation - Aerys insults Tywin enough for the old lion to resign from HOTK and retire in CR - Jon A take Ned and Robert as wards - Rickard accepts Brandon's bethonal to Cat and Lyanna's bethonal to Robert - Rhaegar make preparations for a coup. Meeting place Harrenhal - Ashara Dayne play Ned like a flute. - Aerys gatecrashes the meeting. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna queen of beauty - A year later Lyanna teleports herself in front of Harrenhal. Rhaegar flees to Dorne with her - Rhaegar returns to the Riverlands with Lyanna and a dragon/wolf pup at her breast. Hoster (whose now family since his daughter is married to Rickard's son) act as an intermediary between the wolf and the crown prince. Sir Arthur offer a marriage between Ashara and Ned as a sweetener. Rickard has 'no choice' but to accept their union - The Martells play the victim card and push Aerys to do something. The mad king give more power to Lewyn Martell, thinking that they are at his side. Instead Leywn Martell uses such power to make Elia and her children escape to Dorne. - Rhaegar call the banners. The North, the Riverlands and Dorne answer his call. Aerys orders Ned's execution dragging the Vale into war. Jon A arrest Robert forcing the Stormlands to stay neutral - Surrounded by Dorne in the South, the Riverlands in the North and the Vale at the east, Mace decides not to charge into battle. Aerys is dethroned and Rhaegar takes his place. - Rhaegar revert the rules of marriage. He marries Lyanna who becomes queen at par to Elia and Jon becomes third in line to the throne. Unfortunately an ignorant Brandon gatecrashed everything and as you said, Rickard ended up underestimating Aerys (who, in my opinion, saw through this whole charade)
  2. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    pls read my previous post
  3. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    If we rely solely on the timeline then the risk was relatively small. No one called the bannermen because of it. Rickard remained in Winterfell and Robert remained at the Vale. The only person who overreacted was the ‘wild’ wolf. Even then, his backup was relatively small which clearly suggest that his actions weren’t supported by the big houses. The 4 big houses remained loyal throughout Brandon’s arrest and Rickard and Brandon’s execution. They only rebelled when given no choice but to rebel (Aerys couldn’t expect Jon A to break guest rights and he certainly couldn’t expect Ned and Bob to willingly remove their heads from their necks) and even then the Tullys needed ‘persuasion’ and 3 of the 4 houses involved found local opposition. There again, I’m basing my argument on the timeline. We know nothing about what was going behind the scenes and we’ll certainly wouldn’t be able to know the truth considering that all major players are now dead (Jon A, Robert B, Aerys, Rhaegar, Hoster T, Lyanna, Rickard, Brandon and Ned S) While your argument is extremely relevant I do think that it has 1 weakspot. You’re basing the risk around Rhaegar’s actions with little to no care about Rhaegar’s inaction. Aerys was a paranoid and abusive man who treated both Tywin and Rhaella like rubbish. After Duskendale, Rhaegar became his target and Aerys took every opportunity to weaken him and/or provoke him while glorifying Viserys, which, of course, was bad news for Rhaegar. Prior to Lyanna’s ‘kidnap’ Rhaegar was forced into a marriage that automatically stripped him from his biggest ally. His children were being insulted in court, his younger brother was being glorified by Aerys and Elia was fast transitioning from future queen to a glorified hostage. Harrenhal was Rhaegar’s only chance of building up enough allies to be able to dethrone Aerys yet it backfired spectacularly. If Aerys could go in such extent to punish his son merely because he accepted such endorsement then we can only imagine how he would act now, that he’s got a certain reassurance about Rhaegar’s defiance. TBF I find Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s reunion fishy. At the beginning of GOT we see Robert travelling from KL to Winterfell. Robert is a seasoned warrior who’s not particularly obsessed about his own safety (ie he goes hunting for boars while drunk). Yet the man made sure to take a group 300 men strong which included the Hound and Jamie Lannister.Yet we’re made to believe that Lyanna can suddenly pop in near Harrenhal with no military escort and with her father not knowing where the hell she is. Now I acknowledge that Robert was king that he was taking his family with him and that Harrenhal is closer to Winterfell than KL is. However I still struggle to believe how Lyanna could vanish from Winterfell, leave the North, pass through Riverlands territory and meet the crown prince without Rickard being able to track her down. The fact that Lyanna happened to be close to Harrenhal when Rhaegar was there is quite amazing too. It’s evident that the two had planned this before. The answer is how? Winterfell is miles away from KL and the only viable way of communication between the two would be through ravens. Surely Maester Walys would have told Rickard of Lyanna’s silly plot. Unless of course, Walys (whose accused by Barbrey to be the centrepiece of Rickard’s southern ambition plan) knew about it and was quite happy with the plan. Maybe a crown prince was a better option for Rickard’s Southern ambitions then the LP of the smallest and most loyal region in Westeros? Of course Rickard the honourable couldnt afford being portrayed as a man who broke a bethronal simply because there's a better offer on the table. That's unacceptable. However what happens if lets say Lyanna find herself near Harrenhal and the girl ends up fleeing with Rhaegar out of her own free will? Surely that cant be attributed to Rickard. That would explain why Rickard unlike his ignorant son remained so calm about Lyanna’s abduction. It also explains why Rickard was so confident that Aerys would release his boy (they were kind of family now) and why the mad king went so tough against the Starks (he's mad not stupid).
  4. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    Not really. In the medieval time women were considered as an extra mouth to feed. Hence why they were married relatively early. Their parents weren't extensively fussy whom they marry as long as they left the nest. In my country there's a nursery ryhme about a knight and a father negotiating a marriage deal. Its quite creepy considering that most knights in my country were vowed to celebacy. TBF mothering bastards from a knight sworn for celebacy wasn't a bad thing in a society were poverty was rife. I once visited a palace built for one of these ladies. Its a 6 bedroom palace, in a prime location (for the time) and it was surrounded by fields who could easily feed a big family. You're not the only one who studied medieval history What repercussions exactly? Sex between consenting adults is not a crime in GOT. Brandon had sex with Barbrey, Aegon the unworthy had a horde of women of noble descend as paramours, Robert had sex with a Florent girl while half of her clan was present and even LF was able to go in Riverrun, have sex with Lysa and leave with his head still attached to his neck. Robert's rebellion started not because of Rhaegar. In matter of fact Rhaegar had nothing to do with it. It started because Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn break guest rights by executing 2 innocent wards. As good old Winston Churchill said "History is written by the victors". That term is more relevant the more you go back in time, mainly because the media was poorly developed and often controlled by the state. Apart from Robert there is nothing that suggest that Lyanna was kidnapped. If she was then rest assured that history would have remembered him far less kindly then it did. Instead, there's barely any bad word said about him and that include Ned who lost half of his family in that mess. That's true. There again we need to take things into context. The tourney of Harrenhal was meant to be an opportunity for Rhaegar to make enough allies to topple the king. That plan backfired spectacularly. Rhaegar might well have been a wanted man at that point. It was within Rhaegar's interest to lay low and get Lyanna pregnant before returning to public office. Once it was confirmed that Lyanna went with Rhaegar out of her own free will, then the Starks would have no choice but to accept the new circumstances handled to them, same as the Brackens and the Blackwells did before them. Lyanna's future would be tied to Jon's and Jon's future will be tied to that of his father. That's the reason why Ned couldn't spill the beans about JS origins to his best friend. What makes you think that she was a prisoner in the first place? Unlike Elia who was a mere pawn in the mad king's hand, Lyanna was far away from war and surrounded by KG sworn to protect her. Sir Arthur Dayne was possibly the most honourable men in all Westeros (at par with Selmy). I bet Elia would have swapped her position with Lyanna at any time.
  5. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    Yes and no. You're right medieval girls grew faster then modern girls. However, we're talking here about the Starks, specifically Rickard's children (ie the man who produced Brandon 'I challenge the crown prince in his own house' Stark and Ned 'if I spill the beans to Cersei she will just flee to Essos' Stark). We can safely presume that they aren't exactly the apex of diplomacy and strategic thinking. We know so little of Lyanna so we can't really answer to that can we? What we know is that Rhaegar's music made Lyanna cry, which suggest that the crown prince could raise some deep emotions in the girl. We also know that Rhaegar was hot, really really hot + she wasn't happy in marrying Robert. The fact that Ned never said anything against Rhaegar kind of shows that the attraction was mutual. That's a solid possibility, although, tbf, I cant see Rhaegar forcing himself into Lyanna. There's nothing that suggest that he was that type of man. If he did force himself on her then surely Ned would be much more judgemental when discussing about him, which is not the case. As said before, consensual sex between two adults (and the medieval world women became adults when they have their P) is hardly a crime. Both Brandon and Robert had sex with women of noble birth who weren't their wives. The bloodraven was himself a bastard while LF was able to go to Riverrun, have sex with Lysa and leave with his head still attached to his neck. No one ever called the banners for that. In matter of fact Robert was forced to embelish this charade into Lyanna's kidnap. In reality he has no proof to back that. Also note that the one who caused the rebellion was Aerys not Rhaegar. The Vale, North, Stormlands and the Riverlands remained loyal despite a- Lyanna's kidnap b- Brandon's arrest c- Rickard's and Brandon's execution Even then a substantial amount of houses either took Aerys side or stayed neutral. The Tullys remained neutral up until they convinced the Starks and the Arryn to marry their girls. They only rebelled when Jon Arryn was expected to break guest rights and execute 2 innocent warden/LPs. That is what caused the war not Rhaegar
  6. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    @Pikachu101 I agree that she was very immature especially if she's got a similar character to Arya (whom we know tend to hit first and think later). Also, considering Rickard's other offspring (Brandon 'I go in KL alone and challenge the crown prince' Stark and Ned 'I spill the beans to Cersei and expect her to just flee') I doubt that the old man had spent years teaching the complexity of diplomacy either. Hmm....I wouldn't really use modern mentality to judge medieval morality. People used to marry very early those days and with mortality being set so high, no one really bothered about childbirth. I agree, there was a certain low level of manipulation in place. Its very possible that Rhaegar courted Lyanna mainly not because he liked her but because of her father's army. However the manipulation could have been two way. Its very possible that Lyanna saw Rhaegar as her only way out from Robert's marriage. That's the trouble of raising children with a mindset that the whole world owes them everything only to then end up paring them like some sort of cattle. Lyanna had problems accepting that same as Cersei, Lysa, Robert, Robb and possibly Rhaegar TBF though neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna expected the disaster that would happen afterwards. What Rhaegar-Lyanna did was inconvenient but it wasnt a crime. Brandon Stark was doing the same with Barbrey and Robert would do the same with the Florent girl. Also note that unless a- the Lord/Prince/King was an Ahole (ex Roose) b- his wife happens to be very very insecure (Ex Cersei or Cat) Then bastards can carve a good life for themselves. Brandon Snow and the bloodraven are two of many examples to that. I think that JS would be way better off if Robert's rebellion never started in the first. Actually Lyanna got a far better treatment than Elia and her children. I'd rather spend my life at the tower of joy with some of the finest KGs to protecting me then in KL as pawn to Aerys and later on as an obstacle for Tywin and his plans.
  7. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    @YOVMO The respect is pretty mutual mate. Regarding Lyanna. Well we need to take 3 things in consideration here a- Lyanna was around 16 at the time. That's hardly the peak of maturity. b- Rhaegar was hot and he was incredibly persuasive. Cersei once asked "Had any man ever been so beautiful?". Tywin whose always been composed and stirred away from falling into Aerys many provocations threw caution in the wind to endorse the man while Selmy absolutely adored him. If this man could raise such strong emotions in Tywin and in a sour and mature Cersei then imagine what he could do to a 16 year old Stark girl who probably barely ever left the North (the same north whose 'poetry' produced the likes of Roose, Ramsey, Brandon, Greatjon Umber and Ned) c- We know little about Lyanna however, Ned gives us a great insight on that when he likened her with Arya. That's great because we know a hell of a lot about Arya Stark. She's stubborn, strong willed and a rebel. Can you imagine how Arya would react if she's married off like cattle without Ned even bother asking for her consent? So those are the three reasons why I believe Lyanna fled with Rhaegar. She was immature, Rhaegar was incredibly hot and persuasive + she's was being forced into a marriage no one bothered asking her opinion (let alone acting on it) about. There's actually a 4th thing ie she had no idea the big mess she would leave behind. I mean if you have a mad king as a father you wouldn't introduce yourself to a potential girl you want to go out with, with that
  8. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    In her visions Danny sees Rhaegar speaking to Elia and telling her that Aegon was the prince that was promised. Meanwhile Aemon believed that that prince was Rhaegar, something Im pretty sure the old Targ has shared with the crown prince. So if you ask me, I think that the prophecy of the prince to come has little to do with it. It might have affected the return of dragons (3 heads of the dragon) but not the prince that was promised. So why did Rhaegar do it? First of all we need to analyse how terrible Rhaegar’s crime were. According to Robert, the crown prince kidnapped Lyanna. That is indeed terrible. However, there’s nothing in the books that suggest that. Quite contrary, Ned goes quite mild when describing Rhaegar. Which makes me wonder, why the need of such revision of history? The only possible conclusion is that Rhaegar didn’t kidnap Lyanna but she simply went with him out of her own will. Assuming that is indeed the truth then how terrible that is? To answer to that particular question then we might consider shifting our attention to Brandon Stark and Robert Baratheon. After all both had consensual sex with girls of high nobility (Ryswell and Florent) and both got away with it. The Targs themselves had quite a history with paramours. Aegon the unworthy had quite a collection which included a Blackwood and a Bracken. No one rebelled because of it. Even frigging LF the least of all Lords was able to have sex with Lysa and get away with it. You expect Hoster to make sure that the man who soiled his prized asset would lose his head. It wasn’t the case So to answer that particular question, Rhaegar may have caused a diplomatic upset but he didn’t commit a crime. The books kind of back that. In fact, no one called the banners because of Lyanna. They didn’t even called the banners when Brandon went to KL threatening the crown prince either. Robert’s erm actually Jon Arryn’s rebellion started when Aerys expected Jon to break guest rights and execute two innocent people who were under his protection. That’s something Jon couldn’t do. So what caused Rhaegar to cause this diplomatic upset? We need to take in consideration some events that happened during that particular period The deteriorating relationship between Tywin and Aerys The defiance of Duskendale Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia Aerys shunning Rhaenys as she smell too Dornish Aerys obsession with Viserys The tournament of Harrenhal Rhaegar’s fleeing with Lyanna All are closely knit to one another. In Duskendale, Rhaegar was basically crowned by Tywin who endorsed him as a better king to Aerys and urged the royalists to sack the city in total disregard of Aerys safety. That plan was countered by Selmy who went full Rambo and rescued a broken Aerys from sure death. That had a devastating effect on the king. Not only he was taken hostage by his own subjects but he must felt betrayed by the very people he trusted the most. Tywin was Aerys friend, a man, Aerys appointed as HOTK. Rhaegar on the other hand was his son and heir. How could they possibly agree with the sacking of Duskendale? Why didn’t Rhaegar turned down such endorsement? The result to that was pretty clear. Aerys ordered Steffon to go to Essos and find some random girl from Valyrian descend. That was meant to punish Tywin who was desperate to see Cersei marrying Rhaegar and to weaken the crown prince. Ultimately Aerys had to give his go ahead to Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia a physically weak girl with question marks around her whether she can produce any heirs and whose house was unbeatable in Dorne but pretty weak when stepping outside of it. Elia was able to produce two children, one of which a heir. Yet Aegon never liked them. Instead he grew obsessed with Viserys, which of course is bad news for Rhaegar especially considering Aerys descend to violence and madness. We all know that the only way, Aerys golden boy could inherit the crown was to eliminate both Rhaegar and the prince that was promised. So here we are at Harrenhal, a tourney meant for Rhaegar to raise allies against the crown. But to Rhaegar’s despair Aerys finds out, he gatecrash the tourney and Rhaegar is left with nothing apart from the admirations of the Stark girl (whose agenda was to find somebody whose powerful enough to break her future marriage to Robert). That’s a very dangerous situation for Rhaegar to be in. If someone spills the beans regarding the truth about Harrenhal then Rhaegar and possibly his family will be fried meat. Dorne alone won’t be able to stop that. As said, the North is a strange land for the Southerners but one thing is certain. They do love family. That was clear to Rhaegar when he crowned Lyanna lady of beauty. If the Starks can go ballistic on such minor manner then imagine what they would do if let say, Lyanna’s baby is threatened by Aerys. By escaping with Lyanna, Rhaegar achieved two things. He shifted the attention from Harrenhal’s scandal to Lyanna He hoped to bully himself into a possible alliance between the crown prince and the Starks. Once Lyanna is pregnant, Rhaegar and the Stark’s fate were interwined whether Rickard liked it or not.
  9. devilish

    Jaqen H'ghar's nonsense

    @YOVMO I do believe that there’s a war between fire and ice and that followers of R’holler are being misled by the great other (another theory for another thread). However, I don’t think that the Braavosi are part of that plan. Braavos power rotates on capitalism. Kings and High Lords are kept under control through their debts, war are won through bribes, armies are often bought and financial savvy people loyal to the Braavosi get mansions, power, princesses (Drogo) and armies. Braavosi don't conquer lands. They change their rules, they make sure they are too weak to react and they reward those bright enough to be of use + who are willing to obey (Ex Illyio or Viserys). I doubt that the great other will be interested in being controlled. Dead people do not pay debts. In my opinion, Braavos had been planning to ‘Pentoise’ Westeros since Aerys II rule. Being former slaves themselves the very concept of people having absolute power on others through birth right disgusts them and they wish to change that up. Power should go through meritocracy ie people who knows how to handle money + they can see things the Bravoosi ways. The problem is that Westeros is not Pentos. Their combined armies could wipe away Braavos if they wanted to and that’s exactly what they would do if they sniff a hint of political intrusion from their side. That is why Westeros needed to be weakened first. Aerys-Tywin alliance which contributed in keeping the economy in good health had to be ruined. The dragons had to be kicked out of Westeros to give way to decades of incompetency and wars. That suits the IB fine. Incompetency and war cost money and the IB has that in bucketloads. More chaos means more debt which translates in more power for the IB. Whoever sits on the IT will inherit so much debt that he will hardly be able to breath without Braavosi consent. To achieve that Varys was implanted in Aerys’s court. He first task was to destroy the strong an stable Targeryan rule. Varys achieve that by first weakening the alliance between the lions and the dragons (who could possibly slip the information Ilyn Payne’s stupid comment if not Varys?) and then between Rhaegar and Aerys (ie spilling the beans about Harrenhal). His actions kept hitting the Targeryan hard. He possibly fed Aerys paranioa regarding the Baratheons-Starks which lead to Rickon/Brandon's death and Robert's rebellion. Since Robert’ rebellion Varys had been busy keeping a certain level of chaos either through through his non action. For a man who pride himself of knowing everything + to love the realm , he did suffered from some great misses. - He didn't knew that the Lannister twins were busy producing children - he never reported to Ned that Robert was crushing the economy to the ground. - he didn’t knew who killed Jon Arryn (and if he knew he never reported that) - he didn’t knew that the GC were going to betray Ned (and if he knew he never reported that) - he didn’t help Ned to escape. Varys kept his ‘selective’ reporting/misses throughout Joffrey’s and Tommen’s rule - He didn’t stopped Olenna assassination attempt - He didn’t help Tyrion throughout his trail - He escorted an angry Tyrion to his father chambers at a time when the old lion was busy with Tyrion’s GF. - he didn’t knew or warned Tommen or Cersei about the High Sparrow plans Some might say that Varys was a coward. But do cowards kill a proven Lannister general like Kevan? Varys-Illyio are important pieces to the Bravoosi plan but they are not everything. We have Syrio who was busy starting Arya’s ‘transition’ from a powerful Westerosi lady/assassin/queen under Braavosi control. We have Jaqen, a faceless man who sits at the red keep waiting for the execution commands and we have LF (whose family originates from Braavos and whose sigil is the titan of Braavos) whose pretty much creating the same type of chaos but whose operating outside of Varys-Illyio’s chain of command just in case the latter two decide to go rogue. Meanwhile in Essos the dragon spawn were given lectures of humility and made to heel to Illyio’s (ie Braavos) commands. Danny was married off to some horselord and a Penterossi sympathiser/Illyio’s best mate (Drogo has a mansion in Pentos). What about Viserys? Well, he was made to tag around like the beggar king he is until the time was right (Westeros is in chaos etc). I won’t be surprised that if he stuck around for enough time, then Viserys would have been married off to a totally brainwashed Arya Stark whose job would be to act pretty, smile, produce lovely babies, be in the very middle of Westerosi nobility and kill anyone who dared to challenge the Braavosi. No wonder why Jorah (Varys former spy now in love with Danny) persuaded her not to seek Illyio. That man was using the Targs like pawns. . Viserys, Jorah’s defection and Cersei’s actions had threw spanners into the Braavosi plan. Syrio had to die to keep Arya safe, Jaqen had to take his place and Aegon had to be slotted into Viserys/Danny role.
  10. devilish

    Jaqen H'ghar's nonsense

    @YOVMO @Robb Snow I find it very strange that the magister of Pentos, Varys, a faceless man and the former first sword of Bravos happen to be at the red keep just before tragedy strikes. I find it even more strange that the best assassin in all Westeros ended up being arrested by some of the most incompetent and corrupt soldiers in all the 7 kingdoms, that he ended up being caged like a rat soon afterwards and would need the assistance of a girl to save his arse. Especially since that same assassin found no difficulty in killing key players at Harrenhal in a record period of time. But what is the connection between the 4 players? Let’s start from Varys. He seems to suggest that he want the good for the realm. However is it really the case? Rhaegar was planning a rebellion at Harrenhal against the mad king. If successful, Aerys would have been deposed + Robert’s rebellion, the Greyjoy rebellion and the war of 5 kings would probably never happened. Yet, Aerys foiled such plan. Who was the culprit? Varys. Ok so that might have been a co-incidence. Varys might have genuinely thought that Aerys could be redeemed or that the realm could survive Aerys. Yet a generation later he pretty much commit the same mistake again. He tells Robert that Danny had married Drogo which pushed Robert to take action. Of course everything was staged. Varys man (Jorah) happened to be around to ruin such assassin plan and Danny came out of it alive. Having said that, Danny’s life was still put to danger + the realm had just earned a new powerful enemy. That’s hardly good for the Targs or/and Westeros isn’t it? Lets focus on Varys best mate and partner in crime, the magister of Pentos. Pentos is Braavos whipping boy. In the past 2 centuries, the city has lost 4 of its 7 wars with Braavos. Braavos had forced Pentos to change its rules (ex slavery) + it is forcing it to keep a ridiculously small navy and no army. Under such circumstances we can say that Pentos is nothing but a glorified Bravoosi vassal. So lets concentrate on Braavos instead. After all the remaining 2 players do originate from Braavos. Braavos is the wealthiest and most powerful of the free cities. It was founded by escaped slaves who fled the Valyrian Empire. Taking that into account, I doubt they are big fans of the last remaining Valyrians around. Anyway, Braavos is led by the Sealord whom in turn is protected by the first sword of braavos. The Sealord can hardly act cocky. Both the Faceless men and the Iron Bank live around the corner. We all know that these gentlemen can easily wipe anyone if they want to. The fact that the three institutions can live in the same city without ripping each other throats off suggest that they have a good understanding with one another. Its not that outrageous to think that they all work for the good of the realm. But let’s focus on how Braavos fight wars. As said, Pentos lost 4 of 7 wars with Braavos. They still kept their ‘independence’ which is quite handy for Braavos as they hasn’t conquered anybody. However we all know that such independence is there in all but name. Pentos was forced to abandon slavery, they have to live with a small navy of 20 ships and they can’t hire sellswords or have a standing army. Its rumoured that Braavos had won those wars through bribery, which gives an insight of how Braavos win wars and further strengthen the link between Illyio and Braavos. Considering that Illyio is magister of a client state we can presume that he’s on Braavos payroll. That leads us to the Targs. At the beginning of the books, the Targs are at their lowest. The beggar king is forced to marry his sister to Khal Drogo (which happens to have a mansion in Pentos, which, I repeat is a client state of Braavos) and then ends up losing his life soon afterwards. When Danny escapes from Illyio’s control, the magister gets Aegon out of his hat. He arranges a deal for him with the GC and is then sent to invade Westeros. Both the Targ siblings and Aegon have these common denominators. a- They are feared in Westeros (children of the mad king) b- They owe Illyio a huge debt c- They rely heavily on foreign troops If they win the IT then they will be expected to pay the IB a huge sum of money too. They better act nice to Braavos am I right? So where does Arya fall in all this? Well, Arya is a Stark, a powerful house, sole rulers of a region no one can ever invade. Arya is also the grand-daughter of Hoster Tully, the cousin of Robin Arryn and sister of the future queen of Westeros. Her ‘interest’ to swordsmanship is the perfect opportunity for Syrio Forel to access the red keep and to be in close proximity to such prestigious chess piece without raising any suspicions. His charm offensive (mirrored by Jaqen soon afterwards) brings Arya closer to Braavos which serves a big plus for the Braavosi. Not only would Arya be able to go into any Westerosi court if she wants to but any possible marriage between her and any of Bravoos henchmen could potentially bring the Riverlands, the Vale and the North to her side. Now lets say Ilyio is able to pacify things between Aegon and Danny (it should be pretty straightforward considering both Targs owe Illyio a great deal). Danny ends up queen, Aegon gets the Stormlands. The Lannisters will probably be wiped out so Danny will have to give CR to somebody who knows a thing or two about money and had proved his loyalty to her (Ilyio?). Now imagine that scenario. What better match to pacify Westeros for good if not by marrying Aegon to Arya? Surely Bran would never consider sending troops against his little sister wouldn’t he? Arya would of course play a very important role and she will be very very close to her new auntie in law. Now imagine how easy it would be for this little rascal whose basically family with 2/3 of Westerosi nobility to get rid of anyone who dares crossing the line.
  11. devilish

    Jaqen H'ghar's nonsense

    You know nothing Robb Snow (sorry mate, I couldn't resist) Is it a co-incidence that a faceless man, a magister of pentos and a first sword of bravos happen to be all at the red keep few hours before tragedy strikes?
  12. devilish

    Jaqen H'ghar's nonsense

    Am I the only one to find it very difficult to believe that an A class assassin would need a girl to bail him out? Also what about this '3 lifes' nonsense? Why simply not offering her a way back to Riverrun instead? Was Jaqen interested in showcasing his skills to the wolf cub?
  13. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    @Yovmo You’re making two powerful assumptions here a- He was acting rationally b- Rhaegar had a good idea of how the North works Lets tackle point A first. After Harrenhal, Rhaegar was a dead man walking. His rebellious plot was exposed and he wasn’t able to seal any alliances whatsoever. To make matter worse, his family was in KL which meant that Aerys had Dorne under check. Not to forget that Aerys favourite Viserys was single that means that the mad king could easily seal a deal with the lion and against Rhaegar by merely marrying Viserys to Cersei. Lyanna was his only lifeline. She was a noble woman whose daughter to the warden of the North. At Harrenhal, Rhaegar probably learnt about the imminent marriage between Brandon and Cat which means that Rickard could, in theory, rely on the Trouts for support. Rhaegar also knew that while Aerys was itching to punish him, he would never give his wardens the satisfaction/idea that he was stripping the crown prince from his lands and titles merely because he ran away with a Stark girl. In Aerys perspective all the wardens/LPs are Targ servants (ie think how he treated Joanna, Jamie and Cersei) and as servants they were there to satisfy the Targs in every way possible. That gave Rhaegar time to sort things up with Rickard. Let’s face it, he had more of a chance in persuading a proud but mentally stable family man as opposed to some crazy king who burns people alive. Which leads us to point B The Starks had lived in isolation for centuries. So Rhaegar’s knowledge about them came from history books + their reactions at Harrenhal. The first part assured him that the Starks were fiercely loyal to the Targs. The only time the Starks had the chance to grab some serious power down South (ie the hour of the wolf) they quickly shunned away from it. From Lyanna’s reaction and Brandon’s scene at Harrenhal he probably deduced that Northern women were far more influential than the Southern ladies and that the Starks were fiercely protective towards family even to the point of committing treason. That played in his favour. Rhaegar knew that if Lyanna fled with the crown prince then Aerys will probably implicate the Starks into Rhaegar’s plot. That’s what happened in Duskendale were Tywin implicated Rhaegar into his plot merely by saying that he would be a better option to the mad king. Under such circumstances Rhaegar assumed that a- Lyanna would be able to sort out any differences between him and her father. Someone who gives so much e-way to his daughter must love her to bits and would certainly refuse to hack her true love into bits, especially since he happens to be the crown prince b- If the wolves sense that Lyanna is in danger (and she will be in danger since Aerys is crazy and see demons everywhere) then they will call the banners c- Once they win the war they will go back to their natural habitat up north without barely asking anything in exchange. As said, it was a highly risk plan lead by a desperate young man who wanted to protect his family at all cost. However, in Rhaegar’s eyes its far less risky then we see it. We’re talking here of the crown prince whose beauty and charm is unmatched throughout Westeros. The man grew up being adored by legends (Dayne etc), women (Cersei, Elia) and powerful men (Tywin) who would bend over backwards just to make him happy. If Aegon the unworthy could fill his house with concubines, some of whom were of noble descend then surely he can get away with him having Lyanna as ‘a second wife’ especially since he’s way better then Aegon ever was. And to be fair, his plan nearly worked. After Lyanna’s kidnap no one called the banners. The so called rebel houses remained loyal despite Lyanna’s kidnap, Brandon’s arrest and Rickard/Brandon’s execution. They only rebelled when Arryn was ordered to execute two innocent boys who surely had nothing to do with Rickard/Brandon’s ‘crimes’. Therefore in Stark’s eyes (excluding Brandon of course, whom considering how he 'tackled' Lady Barbrey barely understood politics himself) this was nothing but a diplomatic mess.
  14. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    @YOVMO Our posts get bigger and bigger so here is a summary of what I think a- At Duskendale Rhaegar got himself caught in Tywin-Aerys feud. Aerys survived, both the lion and the crown prince got hurt but while the warden of the west could rely on his troops and enormous fortress, Rhaegar ended up easy prey to his crazy daddy b- After Duskendale Aerys made sure Rhaegar will end up with a weak betrothal. He first send Steffon to find some Valyrian nobody. When Steffon fails to do that, he goes for the second weakest option ie Elia Martell. c- Princess Elia learns early on that Aerys doesn't like her or her children very much. She also learns that Aerys is developing an obsession for Viserys which is not good news for her or her children. Rhaegar is just too weak (military wise) to protect her and he needs allies. If those allies entail having her accept a second wife then so be it. After all her boy will still be heir to the IT. d- Rhaegar gambles everything on Harrenhal. Aerys learns of his plot and he gatecrashed it leaving Rhaegar in a very dangerous position. At that point Aerys only needs to identify 1 suspect and torture him to declare Rhaegar as a traitor. e- Rhaegar learns that Lyanna is unhappy of her future marriage and decides to run away with her. The Starks had been always loyal to the crown + Rickard is a reasonable man who just love family. If Rhaegar 'marries' Lyanna and he gets her pregnant then Rickard will probably close an eye to things especially if the girl tells him it was all her idea. The Starks would never let Aerys hurt Lyanna or her children which means Rhaegar would finally have the army he needs. What Rhaegar doesn't know is that Brandon Stark is a hot head who would stupidily gatecrash KL asking for the crown prince head f- Lyanna knows her brother is a hothead but sees that as an advantage. Brandon will probably do something stupid with little to no support from either House Tully or House Stark. That will probably mean that he'll end up arrested. At that point Rickard will have no choice but to negotiate. With two children in Targeryan custody he hardly have a choice. What she doesn't know is that Aerys is as crazy as a horse. I doubt Rhaegar had opened his courting with that. g- Brandon is indeed arrested and Rickard does goes South to negotiate much to Lyanna's prediction. However much to Rhaegar's horror daddy overdoes this and goes in full killing spree. Arryn refuse to appease the king and rebels, Robert refuse to willingly lose his head and rebel too and Neds takes over the North and does the same thing. Ned is a mess at that point. His father is dead, his brother is dead, he ends up ruling the North something he never wanted and was forced to marry his brother's fiancee (that's creepy). As Robert's no 1 fanboy he can't even entertain the idea of a girl refusing to marry the most powerful, gracious and handsome man in all Westeros. Therefore, in his book, Lyanna was surely kidnapped. He learns its not the case at the tower of joy but at that point its far too late.
  15. devilish

    lust or love regarding R+L

    I won't be surprised. Irrespective of conspiracy theories Aerys shouldn't have gone out Duskendale alive. Barristan Selmy tore a new hole in Tywin's plan and placed Rhaegar into a very dangerous situation. Unlike the lion, the crown prince was easy prey to Aerys I am 100% convinced that Rhaegar was certain that Harrenhal was a safe bet which was worth to take. Else he would have first made sure that Elia and her children would be as far from Aerys as possible first. The crown prince knew that his father was mad and he had little love towards his grandchildren.Even if we assume that Rhaegar was a psychopath (which I don't think so). he would never put 'prince that was promised' life at risk. Unfortunately for him Varys was the best in his job and Rhaegar's plan was foiled. This lead to a series of events with Rhaegar cutting corners and with Aerys ringfencing Elia and her children to make sure the crown prince + Dorne remain under his thumb. I don't think that assassinating Rhaegar was the only solution to the problem. All he needed was to have someone 'persuading' Rhaella to confess that Rhaegar was not Aerys son.Under such circumstances Rhaegar would be made a bastard and he would lose his claim to the crown. Aerys would of course keep Elia and her children as his 'guests' which would mean Dorne will remain under his thumb. Also as long as Aerys had Aegon and Rhaenys then he had Dorne + Rhaegar under check. Dorne would never risk Elia's life. Rhaegar on the other hand would never do anything that would risk the prince that was promised life. I think that ship sailed the day once Aerys learnt about the tournament of Harrenhal. That is why Rhaegar needed Lyanna. If the North and the Riverlands could be convinced to join his cause then Aerys would find himself having 4 powerful regions against him (Riverlands,North, Westerlands and Dorne). The Reach is a powerhouse but it wont risk being invaded from all fronts especially since war is very bad to their fertile lands. That means that Aerys would find himself relying on just the crownlands, the stormlands and possibly the Vale (would Arryn go against Ned?) to defend him. That's a far too weak position for a king to be in. I don't think Rhaegar thought it through. Put yourself in his shoes. Your dad is mad and he's got your own family hostage. You organize a coup d'etat at Harrenhal and suddenly he shows up. If I was Rhaegar, I would be shitting in my pants. By taking Lyanna away, Rhaegar might have thought that he would be able to create enough smokescreen to shift attention from his revolt attempt to Lyanna's 'escape'. The Starks love family and hates politics so if Lyanna returned with a baby in her arms and assurances that she left with Rhaegar out of her own free then daddy would probably close an eye to it. He hardly has a choice on the matter. He won't kill his grandson's father (ie the crown prince) wouldnt he? So here is how things could pan out. As soon Rhaegar becomes king he would agree to legitimise Lyanna's boy and make Lord of Dragonstone. Jon (lets say his name is Jon) would also become second in line to the crown (after Aegon). Its not exactly the Stormlands, however its not a shabby deal either. That would tie Rickard's fortune to that of Rhaegar. As said the Northerners love the wolves (any wolf) and would never allow Aerys to mistreat them. I also tend to play down Robert's so called rage simply because we never seen any proof of it. Robert stirred away from trouble even when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna as Lady of beauty. He stayed out of trouble when Lyanna got kidnapped and he only joined Arryn's rebellion when Aerys gave him no choice. After the rebellion he ignored the remaining Targs up until they became a threat (Danny married Drogo). That's not a man whose guided by blind rage. As said, I don't think Rickard was planning a revolt. If he did, he wouldn't marry Lyanna (noble women of that stature is somehow rare in Westeros) to Aerys cousin whose tiny region is surrounded by Targ Loyalists. After Brandon got arrested, Rickard decided to answer to Aerys summonings even though Ned was still a ward at the Vale (and at the mercy of a foreign Warden). That suggest that Rickard genuinely believed that Aerys was a good king who will bring justice. What I do believe is that like any Warden/LP in Westeros Rickard was strengthening his position as a warden through a strength in numbers policy. Egg reforms were a pain for the Wardens/LPs. So they had to make sure to combine forces just in case another king dares micromanaging the kingdom again. Brandon's actions were stupid. If you threaten the crown prince in KL then its only fair you will be arrested, Rickard joined him because he geniunely believed that the boy would end up with a slap at the wrist. After all who can better understand reckless children better then the mad king? His son has just ran off with the warden of the North's daughter. All of this was a diplomatic mess which Brandon's recklessness made it pretty straight forward to sort. Rickard would forgive Rhaegar if Aerys would forgive Brandon. Simples. Unfortunately Aerys went full bbq and ended up burning the only person who could see sense out of this madness (Rickard). Ned took over and by that time he had so many family to bury not to give a feck about seeing reason. I will add more at a later stage
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