Vastet

Have to give it a real 10. I had 1 or 2 nitpicks but the vote can't handle a decimal place and rounding makes a 10.

Awesome episode. Easy 9.5.

No it doesn't, because I showed that Randyl doesn't see it that way. Quote mining will never win you any argument. Use the context, or don't bother quoting at all. Ridiculous. EVERYTHING suggests this is true. All he had to do was kick him out, forbid him to return, and name Dickon heir if he didn't believe the custom was immutable. He didn't do that, so he didn't believe the custom was immutable. That's a logical fact. Your argument has 0 logic. Randyl intended on ignoring Sam's birthright, which is theft. Fact. He already stole Sam's land and title because Sam took his vows. But Sam didn't let him steal the sword too. Fact.

I disagree. Randyl had every intention to deny Sam his birthright, which is theft.

I fully agree with this. I agree with this, more or less. See below. I really don't have a problem with Mormont keeping Longclaw. And even if I did, the moment he gave the ssword to Jon it was no longer an issue. But I do think that if the NW vows automatically eliminate ALL inheritance, that he had no business keeping it and should have told his sister to pass it on to her children. There's no custom I'm aware of that requires a Valyrian sword to be held by the lord of the house. It might be common, but it isn't a custom. It would be a foolish custom. Can you imagine Lord Martell wielding a sword? The wiki says that custom requires that the first born inherits everything, with the caveat that this is a non-binding custom. In other words, Randyl didn't really have to send Sam to the wall in the first place. He could have simply named Dickon heir and thrown Sam out or let him stay or whatever. That Randyl felt it necessary to send Sam to the wall tells me he doesn't believe the custom can be violated. So then Sam would inherit everything, whether he liked it or not. He sent Sam to the wall where he would be forced to take a vow that strips him of lands and titles. Unfortunately for Randyl, that doesn't include swords. So by Randyl's own view of the custom, Sam is still the heir to Heartsbane. Thus he couldn't have stolen it. Except it was obvious Randyl intended to deny Sam his rightful birthright, by Randyl's own views of the custom as I established above. Thus Sam HAD to take it in order to claim his birthright.

No it isn't a fact. There are no huge plot holes. There's no inconsistent logic.

You gave me nothing to argue against. None of my points has been refuted or challenged successfully. My last 3 or 4 responses have been parroting responses that claimed I was wrong without providing any substance to back up the claim. Come up with an argument and I'll defeat it or concede defeat. Simplycall me wrong or insult me and you'll get the same in response.

No, you are. Wrong again. At least you're consistent.

The last time he rode into battle would have been in the Greyjoy rebellion. All he does these days is sit on his arse and go hunting. Sam intends (imo) to bring the sword North where it is needed most. I'd say it should go to his brother under the current scenario. However, by the time Sam dies the NW will be gone. His vows will be irrelevant because the order is dead. So the scenario changes. Heartsbane has nothing to do with his vows. He was ordered to take care of them. Noone can prove they are in love, and there's nothing to say Sam is starting a family at this point. False.

Irrelevant.

Not one oath ever mentioned refers to personal belongings. Only lands, titles, and family. A sword is none of these things. Who's to say? We've yet to have any example of personal belongings inherited or not by any of these. So then Mormont had no right to keep Longclaw. No I'm using Mormont and Longclaw to prove Sam has every right to Heartsbane. And Randyll isn't using it. He's displaying it.

As yet Sam hasn't started a family. Right back at you.

Not even remotely. "A man's eldest son is his heir" http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs Amazing how you ended up being that very person.

What part of renouncing birthright do YOU not understand?

Absolutely no mention of swords or other personal belongings = you fail. A LC who was explicitly told by the previous LC that if the NW executed every man who took off for a night that the wall would be manned only by ghosts. = you fail.

Correction: you can't argue against fact so you start calling me names and throw a tantrum like a 6 year old.

By keeping it and not sending it back Mormont is as guilty as Sam.

Strawman.

Most of the NW boned girls in Molestown. So irrelevant. Made no oath to not take what was his, no oathbreaking. Conjecture. We don't know how this will end up. He's taking care of two people who need him, as commanded to. No oathbreaking.

Absolutely none of which counters my point.

No it doesn't. Mormont had no male heirs left to pass it to. But if one must renounce all property of any kind, then Mormont broke his vows by bringing Longclaw to the wall. Sam is doing as he was commanded. He isn't an oathbreaker.

"he is not the heir, he took himself out of the run when he swore into the nightwatch. the sword, the land, the castle all of that passes to dickon." If that were true then Mormont had no business taking Longclaw with him. The sword is Sam's, period.

"Have to disagree with you. The sword is a family sword, not Sams. As Randal said, the sword has been in the family for generations." Sam is a member of the family. The eldest son. By law, the sword is his.

Kinslaying is much more common than most people who watch the show or read the books think. We have many examples of it and we barely see any of the houses in either show or book. It is frowned upon socially to do it because lords are afraid of their children doing it, and thus promote the idea it is a horrible thing to do. But that doesn't stop it happening. Oathbreaking doesn't even register as an issue here.

That's ridiculous. It belongs to the family, not Randyll. Sam could just as easily have killed him and been no different than a dozen other lords and kings who offed their parents to take control of their house for themselves. Dickon gets the house because Sam would be breaking his vows, but the sword belongs to Sam.