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About AliceRose

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  1. AliceRose

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    More closely on the topic. The night before the events Ned askes Petyr to bribe the Golden Cloaks Ned and Sansa have breakfast together, Sansa runs away in her chamber in tears. One hour later Maester Pycell comes to inform Eddard of Robert's death. Ned commands to summon the Council Littlefinger came next, still garbed in the blue velvets and silver mockingbird cape he had worn the night previous, his boots dusty from riding. Than King's steward came to invite every one in the throne room as per Joffrey's order. By that time the GC had been already brought and the throne room secured Information about the Gold cloaks is more important than the information about the departure of the girls, because it was kind of obvious that Eddard would want to put his daughters to safety sooner or later. When and how Petyr and Cersei arranged the bribe of the city guards that is the main question. If I am not mistaken later in the books it's saying that Baelish came to Cersei on his own initiative to offer to secure Golden Cloaks, she did not call for him after she'd received information from Sansa. The arrival of Sansa and Baelish to Cersei are independent one from another, Petyr couldn't possibly know Sansa is going to disclose their planned departure. Petyr wore the same clothes as the night before and his boots were dusty from riding, it looks almost like he didn't go to sleep at all and was busy organising the coup. We don't know what exactly did Petyr tell Cersei, he might have told her that Ned asked him to bribe the Golden Cloaks for him or he might have simply suggested that it would be wise to have the Cloaks paid and on her side in case of necessity. As timing is concerned I tend to believe Petyr secured the guards for Cersei long before Sansa's arrival. If Baelish revealed to Cersei Ned's intention to bribe the Golden Cloaks that information alone is more than sufficient to start acting immediately and nothing that Sansa might have said would have influenced anything. If he just brouth the city guards to Cersei's side without reveling much of his dialogue Ned still nothing would have changed for the Stark girls and their escort, the gates were controlled by the Queen's people, they would never let them out. Petyr is smarter than Ned, he wouldn't sit there wasting time, he would want to have everything in place as soon as possible. Even without Sansa the golden cloaks would be set against Starks before the planned departure of the ship. The only slightest chance I could imagine for the girls it's if the king lived and were conscious long enough till the evening tide. The guards are bought by Cersei but they might still be afraid to disobey a direct order forom the King to let the Starks leave. But even here, Pycell had the power to end Robert's live at any moment. Considering that Lord Baelish is the main player of this game there is no workable scenario where Arya and Sansa might have fled KL if Sansa didn't go to Cersei.
  2. AliceRose

    Sansa's betrayal consequences partly overestimated?

    How is it obvious for Sansa?? Robert Baratheon their king, their ally and their friend, Cersei and the kinds are his family. Robert is almost a brother to Ned Sansa must have heard that many times. Robert and his family are the colosest friends to the Starks and enter in the inner circle of trust, the Starks have no one else closer as nobility status, political and military relationships personal friendship. The marriage between Joffrey and Sansa it's just the cherry on the cake to unite two families that are already united by the same victories and same interests to maintain peace in the 7 kingdoms. Sansa does not make a difference between Baratheons /Lannisters /Starks she thinks and acts in her heart as if they were all one big family. In the real world comparison Sansa perceives Robert and Cersei as god father and God mother. She would never ever think that her father engaged her to the enemies. Ned trusted Cersei and Robert enough to agree with the betrothal so did Sansa. She trusted people because father trusted them. She forgive Cersei for the killing of Lady because she perceived her as an authoritarian adult who knows better what is best and since nobody really confronted that decision in Sansa's eyes it looked like the older people from her family dicided that a direwolf is too dangerous to keep as a pet. She truly and genuinely trusted Cersei to be a friend, not only Sansa's friend but family's friend. Another detail, after Ned told the girls he is sending them back three days had passed. In these three days Sansa was desperate, she was crying, refusing to eat and with all the means of non verbal communication domanding, begging pleading to let her know what happens, she was showing that how insufferable that departure is for her and that she considers it an injustice.. She waited and cried and refused to eat, at the end she verbalised her concerns. Weeping and throwing a chair on the floor she asked father why you are so unfair, Aria can see Siryo and I can't say goodbye to Joffrey. She had rights to be desperate and any person has right to be comforted by his friends and family in a harsh situation. Sansa's family ignored her, ignored her tears and disper for three day. A father doesn't have to give account of his decisions to a a child but if you love your child you must at least try to console her. It's must be absolutely obvious to Ned and to the reader that Sansa did not believe Cersei and Joffrey to be obviously untrustworthy, it's was obiosly the opposite for Sansa, she made no secret of it in her chapters. She went to a friend seeking consolation and advice she couldn't find with her family. A friend she believed would act in everyone's best interest. Zero betrayal detected
  3. AliceRose

    Problematic aspects of Sansa`s education

    And yet he did suspect that Lannisters killed Jon Arryn and that they tried to kill Bran, and he suspected them doing it when Robert was fully alive.. But this topic isn't about Ned.
  4. AliceRose

    Problematic aspects of Sansa`s education

    This is a very important question and and have many different answers that might clarify Sansa's reasoning. First of all let's difine death and violence. Violence for us and violence for 11 years old Sansa is not the same thing. The is an interesting quote from her thoughts: Sansa had wept too, the first day. Even within the stout walls of Maegor’s Holdfast, with her door closed and barred, it was hard not to be terrified when the killing began. She had grown up to the sound of steel in the yard, and scarcely a day of her life had passed without hearing the clash of sword on sword, yet somehow knowing that the fighting was real made all the difference in the world. She heard it as she had never heard it before, and there were other sounds as well, grunts of pain, angry curses, shouts for help, and the moans of wounded and dying men. In the songs, the knights never screamed nor begged for mercy. Joffrey was abusive and violent with Micah, but Sansa was too used to the boys playing that she failed to realize the danger. She had never seen real violence before she didn't even know it exists. Sansa was blind to the existence of pain, suffering and death. She didn't understand at all how bad the things were. She recognise that later on when she speaks with Tirells cusins, they are just silly little girls. She was not conscious about what is going on, she was extremely confused and looking for a traditional answer that would fit in her word( It is all Arya fault ) Immediately after Lady's death Sansa decides that she hates Joffrey and the Queen but at that stage another problem cames in. Sansa is pathologicaly insecure, she doesn't trust her own jugement, even when she comes to the right conclusions she doesn't value her own opinions and instincts. The engagement was still on, every one was acting normal and Sansa thought that she was mistaken about Joffrey.
  5. AliceRose

    Problematic aspects of Sansa`s education

    Telling a child to behave wouldn't be a problem for me, I disagree with the way it is done most of the time with Sansa. She is the only Stark kid who is expected to accept everything, to do what she's told without hesitation, not to make questions and no explanation is ever due to her. There long confidential dialogs with Arya and Bran, parents speak with them, listen to them ,value them. That is not case for Sansa. Ned and Cat didn't just order to Bran to stop climbing, they spoke with him tried to explain, to demonstrate the dangers. Ned didn't just order Arya to behave in king's landing, he listened to her worries, calmed her and shared with her his concerns. There is a disturbing lack of healthy communication between Sansa and the rest of the family. Sansa is a passionate, diligent and smart student. She is intelligent enough to understand complex matters, the problem is that no one ever cared to explane her anything valubale. She is old enough to abbandon her fantasies about the heroes and monsters, the adlts around her should dedicate some time to explain her how this world works. She is left alone with her douts and her fantasies and it is forbidden to her to inquire. She is treated as an object without will and without feelings, Sansa has been weeping three days before the planned departure from King's Landing she was refusing to eat and begging for an explanation. Ned didn`t care, he was letting her cry in disper for days. Telling Sansa the same thing he has told to Arya "We are surrounded by enemies" would have been enough.
  6. AliceRose

    Problematic aspects of Sansa`s education

    The second part of my post is about a more damaging influence in Sansa`s upbringing. Almost everything that Septa Mordane taught to Sansa was questionable from a modern reader point of view. Being willful is a negative trait of character in septa's eyes, oppressing Sansa`s will, opinions and expressions is a constant in Mordane educational method. Septa is acting very unprofessional in this case, she is setting a negative comparison with Arya when Arya is not even there in the room, I have been told not to speak ill about someone who is not present. She is creating a conflict between sisters where there is absolutly no reason for it. Septa took a very bad habit to criticize and vilify Arya at any occasion and Sansa unfortunately picked this habit too. Every time Sansa allows herself to act freely and willfully she disapproves herself and thinks that she has been as wicked as Arya. Sansa`s thinking that the incident at the Trident is all Arya's fault is direct consequence of having a mentor who is constantly saying that everything is Arya`s fault. Sansa is often accused of being shallow and concentrating too much on the appearance, just look what king of example her septa is giving her. As i mentioned before Septa was regularly oppressing Sansa`s personality she wanted her to be a brainless bird repeating pretty sentences. In my opinion it is way too many times when Sansa is told to shut up. This continuous repression of Sansa's questions and opinions installed in her an alarming lack of self confidence. She thinks she is stupid and she doesn't trust her opinions even when she comes to the right conclusions. My next idea is a bit of speculation about the deep meaning of Moradne`s central teaching "Courtesy is a Lady`s armor" There is a side of it which is troubling me. An armor is used for protection against attacks, septa is suggesting that Sansa should use courtesy against the aggressors. It is somehow wrong, it is dening Sansa`s right to stand up for herself. Courtesy is not always the right answer. Sansa wasn`t ready to stand up for herself when Joffrey was rude with her after the fight with Arya. And at last the most disturbing bit.. How did Sansa come to the idea that septa Mordane would want her to endure rape with a horrible monster? She was trying to subdue herself to the violence because of septa mordane, seriously? I don't think septa wanted this but it is a clear indication of what kind of harmful ideas she put in Sansa`s head.
  7. AliceRose

    Problematic aspects of Sansa`s education

    Sansa is the only Stark's kid with POV who is not remembering any of her parents teachings, she is not recalling them as role models or us figures of comfort during hardship. Only once Sansa wished to be strong as her mother. Unfortunately Cat`s influence on Sansa is almost imperceptible. Sansa`s true and only life mentor was septa Mordane, she is the one who shaped Sansa`s character. We know little about Cat but it is safe to say that Ned neglected Sansa altogether. And I don't even want to talk about Darry, too much has been already told. How on earth is possible that Ned didn't find a moment alone with Sansa to speak about what has happened? She was destroyed by her loss, troubled by the prospects of the engagement, she was utterly lost and confused. Sansa didn't understand what happened, she didn't know who to blame. She drew DANGEROUSLY wrong conclusions out of the incident. Ned was aware that Sansa is making some serious mistakes of judgment and he din`t care to discuss with the truth and helping Sansa overcome the situation and maybe make her take some lesson from it. The are two other situations, much less discussed than Darry, that show a little of how Sansa`s human and moral development was neglected by Ned. Both Eddard and Catelyn share an equal view on the tournaments, War and Death should not be a game, I would say it is a core value of the Stark family. Death is not a game is a moral standard for Ned. Sansa had no clue about such a fundamental value of her family. When Sansa asked to go to the tournament he just told her off harshly. He just didn't care to pass over the understanding of the basic things to Sansa. During the tournament things got worse, a young knight was killed right in front of Sansa. Ned's dislike of tournaments took a concrete form. I man was killed in front of his daughter's eyes and Ned did not deem it a good enough reason to speak to Sansa to see maybe she is scared, maybe she needs some explanations. If only Ned wondered what does Sansa think about the episode, he would not be happy at all with her answer. It is again about core northern moral values, Ned was warning seven years old Bran about the responsibilities of taking a human life, it is a grave task and no one should not forget how the death looks like. This is as well one of the many subtle manipulation performed by Martin to antagonize Sansa with respect to her family. I believe that Sansa`s reaction was perfectly normal and Ned wanted his children to follow his ideas he should take a bit more care of communicating these ideas. Second situation I would like to highlight happened during the Mountain trial Same scheme, Ned shelter Sansa from any possible harmful information and when shit finally happens he ignores it. If he was worried of what Sansa might have heard and what she has understood why did he actually speak to her? Sansa was anxious about her father's decision and she had lots of little ponies in her head. That was a priceless occasion to explain how harsh and dangerouse the life can be and the difference between justice and vengeance.
  8. At my very first reading I was perceiving Sansa as an unlikeable character. I ought to admit my feelings against her used to be pretty strong. From reading several ASOIAF related forums I have got the idea that my first impressions on Sansa are widely shared. It is curious because she didn't do anything truly despicable, she is just a child, her mistakes could be easily overlooked and yet she gets an incredible amount of criticism bordering with hatred. My strong feelings of dislike toward her pushed me to want to understand more about what exactly I didn't like. Which traits of Sansa`s character were making her so unbearable to me. I have started to read this forum as well as similar platforms in other languages and most importantly I did a second re-read.. and then a third and a fourth. By now I should have read all Sansa related chapters a hundred times each. She is a facinating object of study. Forum opinions on Sansa are very interesting, but unfortunately it happens quite often that Sansa fans and Sansa haters alike give completely false and unproven motivations to her most controversial decisions. For example in my opinion too many people claimed that Sansa has made a conscious decision to say nothing in Darry during the hearing, haters say that she had consciously decied to lie for her egoistic interests, some Sansa fans say that she had consciously decided to avoide confrontation because she is smart and it wouldn't be wise to ruin her relationships with her future family. She was scared to death, her eyes were full of tears, she didn't decide anything at all, let alone being conscious about the consequences of her words. Sansa is an absolute masterpiece of literature work, Martin did an incredible amount of care and details into her. I believe that only several careful and unbiased re-reads can help to flesh out her true personality. Well that's was a long introduction. I will try to give you my answer to the question which traits of Sansa`s character are so unbearable for many of us.. Sansa`s education was questionable on so many levels that I wonder how did she manage to come up as a decent human being. I will stop talking too much and just bring to your attention problematic aspects of Sansa`s life. There are two main issues with Sansa`s upbringing: total neglect from her parents and awful influence from an ignorant, incompetent, misogynistic teacher. Both factors are equally allarming.
  9. Sansa and Baelish? Why not?