Wizz-The-Smith

The Tree(os) has three heads! This sounds like the journey of a greenseer. Death and re-birth. Giving up ones life to go into the tree (death) Then reborn as a greenseer. Perhaps the second head represents joining the hive mind or the greenseer training?

Coins = scion The colours of royalty and the coins representing Kings works well with the coins/scion anagram. Totally agree. It's fun, educational, and can absolutely lead to untouched hidden gems not yet found. I've been involved in such gems being uncovered through speculative ideas leading to great discussion. My hollow hills essay was born because of @Seams and their fell/seam wordplay. @ravenous reader, @LmL, @Rusted Revolver, and many others had a decent amount of joy unlocking the symbolism and layered meaning throughout the novels. Simply shooting the breeze in a relaxed, open, non judgmental group of friends have been the best times for me in this fandom. Most ideas were dead ends, but super fun. But some led to excellent ideas/theories that were supported very well by the text. What PainkillerJane and Ravenousreader called the cesspit was one such discussion mocked by many but the more one looks, the more you see the evidence of George using the 'shit' motif. Then what do you know, your fine self finds a load more evidence in your Jon/toilet research. Anyway, I'm always here for the speculative discussions, the best part of the fandom for me. And I don't care if 99% of it doesn't prove correct, as I've been part of 1% that has. It's exciting when it happens.

Very cool! This is absolutely a possibility.

Yeah, agreed. I thought I'd throw it out there. Much like everyone else in this thread I enjoy having fun with the language. This one did seem a bit too far of a stretch though.

Thank you. I thought you would like that. A pleasure to share, if anyone can develop this wordplay/etymology then it's you. The fact that obsidian can be linked to hostages, it made me think that the fire in 'frozen fire' is the hostage in the case of obsidian. If we link that to the idea that an ancient greenseer may be being kept hostage inside a tree within the Wall it adds weight to my thought that this greenseer may be a dragon person. A remnant of the Empire of the Dawn, a fiery person locked in the ice. A hostage/obsid. Something akin to Jon or Bloodraven. Is there something in this that made George adamant that he had to make the last greenseer a Targaryen? Well, the later Latin root of hostage is 'obsidatus'. So if we get really creative (like, extremely creative) we could scramble the letters to get 'autibodss'. Turn the 'u' upside-down and we get 'antibodss'. I love all the etymology links and anagrams, though I'm not sure about this one. I shall leave it to the anagram expert to discern whether or not this has any relevance. It is right there though. Would George want us sleuths to turn a 'u' upside-down? I like to make the anagrams work perfectly, but I know you often speculate on words that may need a letter added or taken away etc. It's definitely worth throwing out there anyway considering the esteemed and creative company contributing to this thread. I totally agree about Voice's theory, it is absolutely brilliant, a must read for anyone hasn't yet done so. Absolutely. I was excited to find it. Hopefully we can brainstorm as a collective and build this idea further.

Loving all the chat around the 'ward' links and wordplay. Another angle I feel we should be looking at is the connection between wards and hostages. George has hinted at such a connection. If, as I've speculated up thread, the greenseer(s) at the base of the tree/trees may have been Otherised, they may be a ward (or wards) taken from the Others, or indeed could be seen as hostages. They may well be what my friends and I call a 'good Other', someone who has been Otherised but still fights for mortal man. What Jon may turn into or what we see in Coldhands. Such a character would forfeit their lives to the Watch, Coldhands roaming the North, or perhaps a greenseer inhabiting a weirwood at the base of the Wall. It would be akin to the tale of Monster, a stolen Other baby, a ward, a hostage. An important individual stolen from the Others that fights the good fight for mortal man. Dedicating their lives to the Watch. It would enable the Ice magic that would build the Wall, and fulfill the trope of using the enemies strength to defeat them by creating the magical ice Wall and ward etc. The whole 'good Other' angle is too big to dive into here, but there's plenty of text to parse and speculate in regards to this line of thinking. Onto the etymology of the word 'hostage. The Latin root of the word hostage is 'obsid'. This strongly suggests the word hostage being linked to obsidian. So if a hostage can be linked to obsidian, an Otherised hostage or ward woven into the magical fabric of the Wall may provide the same prohibitive properties that we see with obsidian and the Others. Something that would repel them, defeat them, kill them. Perhaps this is why they can't cross the Wall? Perhaps the ward/hostage/obsidian is the key behind the magical barrier the Others cannot cross? Sorry for not being as active as I'd like, I'm still loving the thread even if I can't find the time to participate frequently. I found this etymology/wordplay recently and thought I've got to throw it out there, so I've cobbled together a quick and probably incoherent post. I think there's something there, but would love to hear all your thoughts.

I've got to go bed, but before I do I just want to say this is brilliant!

Thank the Seven for that. Joking aside, it's good to have some different perspectives and for theories to be challenged. Having said that, you haven't read my last post yet. I'm ready.

Right, I wasn't sure about this angle, and I certainly never thought about it when I proposed the Wallwood theory a while back (I've appropriated your title for the theory, love it. ). But one of the passages of text I'd noticed as having parallels to the Nightfort scene is when Davos is led past the weirwood in the Wolf's Den. Here's the text. I'm sure you can spot the parallels, but let's go over them briefly. Our characters (Davos and Bran) are led down a flight of steps. The weirwood had grown so much that the limbs/branches had gone crashing through the building above (walls and windows in this case, the domed kitchen at the Nightfort) The weeping walls crusted with salt are reminiscent of a) the Wall weeping and b) the salty tear that drops onto Bran when passing through the Black Gate. Nitre link as well. The blank stone wall that turned is a secret passage/door/Gate, just as the Black Gate is a secret passage through the Wall. Both then traversed a tunnel. And the fact they were led upward may point towards the fact that the Nightfort is built on a hollow hill and the land was not level from one side of the Wall to the other. The weirwood at the Wolf's Den is underground, just as the weirwood at Nightfort is. ----------- Okay, so quite a few parallels,. The Davos scene certainly seems to echo the Nightfort. And this all takes place beneath the whitewashed walls of White Harbor. The white walls of White Harbor bring to mind the ice white Wall itself, so that works pretty nicely. But I'd like to speculate on your point about an Other, Other like, or Other linked ancestor of the Stark's being present at the Wall or somehow imbued within the weirwood magic present. We're in White Harbor. A synonym for harbor is to conceal or hide. So we may have a clue here to a White (Walker/Wight) being concealed or hidden. Generally, to harbor someone is to hide a criminal or wanted person for their protection. So there may be some more thought needed amongst the great minds in this thread when it comes to this idea, but I think this has potential. It may simply be that a White Walker is concealed within the Wall, but let's look at other angles. Are you familiar with the 'stolen Other baby' theory? Basic premise being that the Others would take the sacrificial babies on offer, while keeping a close eye on said babies potential abilities. Looking for greenseers, one with special blood. Someone to lead them? Someone to break the spells cast upon them? Whatever the case may be, a powerful and talented child. As @ravenous reader puts it, 'a ward of winter'. The tale of Monster (Gilly's babe) may be a cyclical parallel here. A child promised to the Others, but whisked away and taken from them. I won't give the 'stolen Other baby' theory credit here without doing some research into old discussions. But basically, a child given to the Others, with Bran like power that was stolen back from them could be the 'ward' that is imbued within the Wall. Fighting fire with fire, or in this case ice with ice. Speculative when it comes to the stolen Other baby, it could just be a White. But thought I'd throw the 'other' angle out there. I've just noticed this, and more thinking to be done. Anyway, I'm rambling now, I need to speak to Ravenous Reader, they'll help me see the wood the the trees. As I hope all you fine people will. But yeah, White Harbor parallels tonthe Nightfort may lead to a White being harbored at the Wall (in a nutshell) I'm off to hide behind the sofa in case @Mourning Star reads this.

Yes, the quote suggests the weirwoods (or branches) are on the Northern side. But then the weirwood (or branch) at the Nightfort is on the Southern side. If these weirwoods are actually branches from far bigger weirwoods beneath the Wall then the branches could well pop up either side of the Wall depending on which way the branches grow. Well, we're told that the Nightfort is the oldest castle at the Wall, which suggests it was the first castle at the Wall. So, would they build the massive Wall first then add a castle? Maybe. I think it more likely the Nightfort was built first, or at the very least at the same time the Wall's construction started. Additionally, in those days the First Men built their castles around existing weirwoods. Most likely they did this to fortify, claim and use the magic of said weirwoods. Brandon did this with Winterfell and Storm's End, so with the evidence provided for the Black Gate as a tree, it makes sense Brandon did the exact same thing with the Nightfort and built the castle around the tree. That's what makes sense to me anyway. Depends on ones take regarding the weirwoods I suppose. But I know what you mean.

Except for the three castles that cut back the trees, there is evidence of weirwoods along the entirety of the Wall. I think these weirwoods may have punched their way through to the surface like the one at the Nightfort.

Absolutely. Most of the hollow sites have water present. Whether it's a subterranean river, sunless seas, pond or pool, a well etc. I reckon there might be a subterranean river network as big as the cave network.

Agreed. And definitely props to the YouTuber, he's adding a lot ideas to try and flesh the theory out, have to admire the creativity.

Ooh! Nice! Atop the hills are where the weirwoods tend to grow, and where the sacrifices would be performed. Love it. I'll have to re-read that chapter. The more we discuss, break down, and potentially try to understand the text the more I spot on re-reads. Absolutely it could be. This wall is made o' blood." Said the pale, red headed weirwood ... I mean wildling. What's her name? Oh yes, Yggritte.

Hi Evolett, I hope you're well. Without researching and counting, I'm thinking there are a lot more single weirwoods in the series than groves (or groves that have been cut down) We can't dismiss the godswoods, these are single trees that the First Men built their castles around, probably fortifying the magic they offered them. There a a decent number of them, Winterfell, Storm's End, Casterly Rock, Riverrun, Raventree Hall, White Harbour, The Citadel, we're told many houses in the North have their weirwoods in godswoods etc. On top of the single weirwood at the crofters village we have, the weirwood at Harrenhal, the stump Jaime has his dream on The Whispers, The Nightfort, Whitetree, the weirwood next to Sam when Coldhands saves him, the single weirwoods Jon sees in the Haunted Forest. That's fourteen not including the single weirwoods in the Northern godswoods. The groves we see are High Heart, Sea Dragon Point, The Grove of nine, Bloodraven's cave and one in Dunk and Egg (can't remember where that was) Mustn't forget the groves the Andal's are said to have cut down or burnt. So there more single weirwoods than groves in the series. We can also add the weirwoods popping up in the shadow of the Wall. In my opinion, the reason the groves are considered sacred is that they are rarer than the single weirwoods, therefore seen as a more powerful site. Good point about being surrounded by other trees. I would have thought these trees would've been cut down to facilitate the building of the keeps and the Wall itself. Keeping the weirwood as the First Men always did, in this case building the Wall around them. All good points, totally agree. Apart from the last line. I don't think there were groves there, the Grove that is close to the Wall they kept. Too sacred. I don't think they'd have cut down any weirwoods. Great point. The cave system is still super relevant though. The underground rivers and sunkess seas could absolutely have an important role here. As for the mechanics of the theory, of all the weirwoods I've mentioned, a large number of them have caves beneath. All the better for a greenseer to sit their weirwood thrones. As I pointed out in my hollow hills essay, there seems to be a pattern of hill - weirwood - cave. I think the subterranean is very important to the story of the weirwoods, it's the Westerosi Underworld and the base of the greenseers (attached to said trees of course) So in my humble opinion (respectfully of course) the mechanics really do work. Hills - weirwood - caves. If a cave system runs from East to West, then it's no surprise to me to see weirwoods growing above said cave system. Single weirwoods and groves both. Agreed. I mentioned this up thread as evidence the weirwoods could thrive under the Wall. Potentially, yes. But again, the pattern of hill - weirwood - cave lends itself to the idea that there were already weirwoods growing along this ley line, and was the reason the First Men (or Brandon) chose this site as the place to build a magical Wall. I did agree with @sweetsunray up thread that potentially planting weirwoods in between the already existing ones could make sense. Agreed. That is the YouTuber's theory. My theory from three years ago was simply that the Wall is built on top of weirwoods from East to West. And thus is the reason it's a hinge of the world and so magical etc. I personally don't subscribe to the water pumping theory. Again, that's the YouTuber's theory and doesn't make much sense to me. If there is some textual evidence then I'm all ears, but I don't see any right now. When I proposed the weirwoods in the Wall theory I didn't think of the tree being hollow. I can see the logic in that idea, but I'm yet to be convinced. Right now I'm of the opinion that it's simply a weirwood tree under the Wall situated next to the well. The hollow tree idea is interesting though, plays into the hollow hill angle as well. It could well be the case. If so, everything else you say here makes sense. But the water dispersion theory just doesn't sit right with me for now. We're told about huge blocks of ice in the Wall, water dispersion wouldn't create blocks. Bot sure about that one. Maybe. That certainly is plausible. But swords glow like milk water too. Again, the water dispersion at the Wall seems far fetched for me. Totally agree. No text to support it and seems to be real world explanation shoe horned in to the series as explanation. Interesting speculation from the brilliant @Sandy Clegg (did the YouTuber mention this too?) But makes no sense to me. Nice little branch off the main subject of the thread which led to talk of moons etc always good to chat and speculate. But I agree with you, it's a no from me. Thanks for the reply, I hope I didnt go too aggresive here in defending my views, I always try and be friendly (I'm used to Twitter where the vibe is somewhat less friendly) and I always enjoy reading your posts. The same can be said for all the contributors in this thread, very much enjoying it. So yeah, single weirwoods are to my mind absolutely a thing in the novels, and seem to outnumber the rarer and sacred groves. So the hill - weirwood - cave mechanics would in my opinion lend itself nicely to single weirwoods growing along the cave system at the Wall. Much to catch up on, I miss so much during the day at work. Many posts I'd like to reply to, but finding the time is difficult. Thanks again.

Totally agree. Very cool. He certainly does. There's also another clue to be found in that passage, relating to the trees below the Wall, or as the foundations. Just before he thinks about Brandon the Builder and how he built the Wall, we get this line. Awesome! George you tricksy bird.

I think the key here is that the entire Wall is built on top of not only the weirwood trees but the cave system that runs beneath it. A large percentage of the weirwoods (or groves that have been cut down) we see in the series are growing on top of hollow hills, with a cave below to facilitate the weirwood root thrones the greenseers sit. Winterfell, Storm's End, Sea dragon point, The Whispers, High Heart, Bloodraven's cave etc. Otherwise they are already underground, Casterly Rock, The Wolf's Den. The Others we see are atop hills where it's highly likely there are caves beneath, but we have no text, Highgarden, The Citadel etc. And last but not least, and most importantly, we have the Nightfort. So yeah, it's the caves as well as the weirwoods that are key here. As for evidence the Wall is built on a cave system, we have the tale of Gendel and Gorne. The cave system is huge, yet the Wall is thin in comparison. A dozen armored knights riding abreast tells us the Wall is only, what? About forty foot wide at the top? Thicker at the bottom, but it would take no time at all to pass through the Wall from South to North. Yet the cave system is massive, it seems likely the cave system goes mainly from East to West. Then we get this text. West of Castle Black, we have it confirmed that there is hill after hill. The pattern repeated again and again by George is that where there are hills there are almost always caves. So West of Castle Black is hollow hill country for sure, and following said pattern, this means it's extremely likely there would've been weirwoods growing there for eons. It being a sword to the east is less clear, but I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume the cave system stretches East of Castle Black as well. Especially when you consider the wormways beneath each of the castles on the Wall. I'm fairly certain I've found evidence for this in the past, caves or hills, but the quote escapes me right now. I'll post again if I find it. Additionally, to make sure we're singing off the same hymn sheet here, I don't think the weirwoods have to be super close together. The key is a magical ley line of caves and trees. The Wall is roughly 300 miles wide from East to West, so obviously the trees are seriously spread out. For the sake of poetic symbolism, let's say there are 79 weirwoods to match the 79 Sentinels. That's well over a mile between each tree. My head cannon suggests there are probably less than that, let's say as little as one for each castle (including groves like at Castle Black) then that's as few as 19. I think it's probably somewhere in the middle of that. Fifty would be one every six miles. Whatever the number, it's the caves that are key. As I said previously, I think the Wall is built on a gargantuan hollow hill site, and with that comes weirwoods. You are right to highlight the anomaly of trees growing in straight(ish) lines, that is normally associated with humans planting. But the pattern George has supplied throughout the text gives us ample evidence to suggest these weirwood trees could absolutely be growing in a line across the width of Westeros. Thanks for probing with these queries, it fleshes out the theory, and said probing requires evidence to back up the claim.

Well, I cannot deny the possibility that's for sure. Could absolutely be what George is going for. I agree George is a master at misdirecting the reader, but an entire novel series talking about the Wall coming down, the Others coming South, the Long Night etc seems like a bit much for me. However, misdirecting the reader regards what the Others motives are makes more sense to me. Maybe they do just want the weirnet back, or to break some fell magic a human greenseer cast upon them etc Always good to share ideas though, it's the best way to keep opinions fresh and fluid. And I'm always willing to change my opinion. Haha! There's more to their tale than meets the eye for sure.

Nice catch. Could well be.

Sweet, I'll have to read that thread. I've not said the Wall is the barrier, but that the magic ward created by the weirwood trees and their magic is. (If I've said Wall by mistake, apologies) I do think the various points made about the purpose of the ice Wall itself being a mystery are extremely valid. Cool that you've identified it as a container as well though. You're right that we don't know for sure the Others want to come South, but if they just chill up North that would be a huge anticlimax. We know from Coldhands that Otherised beings cannot cross the warded Wall, so I've always supposed that that means the ward is there to keep the Others from coming South. The warded Wall is containing the Others. Definitely. I think the weirwood trees inside the Wall and the on the God's Eye are what they are after. They may want to destroy some sort of magic that's holding them back, or perhaps they want to take back what was originally theirs?

Nice. Loads of fire imagery around weirwoods and greenseeing. Reaching for the fire of the gods. Maybe they're sick of being cold. "If ice can burn, then love and hate can mate." (Jojen) The third level of the platform was woven of branches no thicker than a finger, and covered with dry leaves and twigs. They laid them north to south, from ice to fire, and piled them high with soft cushions and sleeping silks. (Daenerys X, AGOT)

Nice. Back in the Riverlands with Longrider, it's a good day. I've been banging on about wards, weirwood groves, the old gods etc for ages, yet never really considered the groves specifically as being warded. But it does make some sense. @sweetsunray makes a great point about Wun Wun and Co seeking out the grove for safety. And as you have pointed out, the Grove on High Heart is certainly a place where the old gods rule. R'hollor has no power there etc. Shrunken and feeble but still holding sway over the power that the hill and its grove possesses sounds extremely greenseerish. Bloodraven and the Black Gate of course, not our Bran. Nice quote from Tom 'o' Sevens as well, that works really well with what Sweetsunray mentions about the grove of nine.

Oh yes! I forgot to mention that one! Skinchanger central! There's also the old fantasy trope of 'fell magic'. Traditionally meaning evil magic. But in asoiaf we have hollow hill magic, so perhaps fell magic means hill magic. Although I do tend to think George's magic also has its dark side. I said magic way too much in that post.

Yep, could well be the case for sure. My thinking was along the lines of someone trying to break through the Wall from North to South as the Others (and Arson) want to do. If the weirwoods are what is creating the ward, then the Others need to bypass them or somehow destroy them, defeat their magic etc. A symbolic use of the word axe within Arson's name seemed to me to fit with that notion. Lots of wordplay with the word fell in the novels as well. @Seams posted about the word fell also meaning seam and speculated that Winterfell was a magic seam. I noted that fell also meant hill and my hollow hills essay was born from that (thanks to Seam's ) Trees being felled, dragons being felled, Winterfell, all the hollow hill sites being fells (including the Wall) House Fell has some really cool symbolism, etc. Loads of it. Totally fair point though. The best threads and ideas need us to bounce off one another to better see the wood for the (weirwood) trees.