valirpaz

Great Episode! We're gaining speed. Well done dialogues in many scenes. And of course I totally did not see Arya's fate coming, I thought there would be a duel/fight with the waif. Will be interesting to see how she gets out of this.

I agree. The last episodes were kind of slow, not the boom boom boom from other seasons (maybe to buy time and allow GRRM more time for writing? ) but I always thought the show could have spent a bit more time on characters and background rather than developing the plot so quickly, so I don't mind. I think this episode was a nice built up though, especially in the North. So Sansa wants to attack Ramsey and counts on the Tully men Littlefinger promised. But these men will now be besieged in Riverrun by Jamie so probably won't be of any help. Not good for Sansa.... Will Brianne meet Jamie there? And if the captured Lord Edmure as well as Blackfish happen to be killed, who will make a claim to lead house Tully? Sansa vs Baelish/Robin? Also the new development in King's Landing is interesting. Is the faith/crown relationship real? Or is it just a charade? In the last episode it was obvious that Margaery just faked her belief and penance and now she was relieved about escaping the walk. Maybe it was not the High Sparrow who outplayed Cersei/Jamie but actually Margaery (and Tommen) outplaying everyone? But my favourite scenes were the one with Arya. I was right for a change again, she's not no-one and I'm glad. She kept her values and identity - and now decided in favour of them and against being a killer. I like it and I'm very much looking forward to her storyline.

Just a note to the non-readers who'll wonder whether they're the only ones: No you're not. Looking forward to reading your thoughts.

It just seems that every week someone else is asking this question but then not coming back the week after. I agree, great episode. Good story with Hodor, and I agree, Arya isn't no one and I also don't think she'll ever be. She might succeed for a while but she's too strong a mind. Again I agree on Sansa. My least favourite Stark character, she pursues rule, revenge, power no matter what. So she knew that Littlefinger new about Ramsay and still trusts his word on the army? And lies to Jon when at the same time she persuades him to fight? Sad. Nice scene with Jorah and Daenerys. I wonder whether he'll find cure. The Osha part was a little quick. It was clear she wouldn't succeed and I thought she'd be smarter than that. Little patience to get a knive somewere else and wait for a better position. At least he just killed her and no torture thank goodness. Quite un-Ramsey I'd say. PS: Male private parts in the theatre scene? Are we finally moving towards more balance on female / male nudity?

I really wonder where the other non-readers are. Have they read the books while waiting for the new season. Are they not watching yet because they're waiting to binge-watch? No idea... For me it was an OK episode, not so great overall, but nice built-up for the next to come. So Jon did meet Sansa, wrong I was again. And ... [irony on] yes, marching south after Ramsey's threat/insult is certainly a good idea [irony off]. Looking forward what happens in King's Landing. And of course: Nice work Khaleesi!

Hey ma_liky - nice to read you and hope to read your thoughts on the next episode again too! I admire you for having a clear picture of what is going to happen, because most of the time I have no clue. (I was certain that Jon would live though, and relieved I was right.) Bran's visions. I quite enjoy them too, nice way of sheding light on past stories. What he will see in the tower? I think Lyanna is in the tower. And she's having a baby by the mad king (likely she was raped) and this baby is Jon Snow - so Jon is not only Stark but also Targaryan. Eddard kept it a secret to save his life. This is why Jon is going live and will play a major role but I have no idea what it will be. I think his goal will be to save his siblings, and save whomever he can save from the Whitewalkers, not sure he will be interested at all in power such as trying to conquer Winterfell, if so, not for himself. I'm not sure Jon will actually meet Sansa, so far they have always avoided such encounters (Arya and Sansa were so close one time). I agree with you Melisandre might go with Jon, not entirely sure. I think that Brianne will stay with Sansa, she vowed an oath, I don't think she'ss depart. Rickonn and Osha at Ramsey, oh dear, I hope they are saved soon I can't see much more of his sick torturing. My hope is that Theon is returning and killing Ramsey or at least free the two and sacrifice himself, you know last episode Theon said he's going home, that will be Winterfell, not the Iron Isalnds right? You think Noone formerly known as Arya's fisrt mission will be to kill all of the people from Aryas list? I would kind of bet against it. Isn't the whole point of her time in the House of Black and White to detach her from her personality? Why should she no basically do what Arya wanted to do? I'd think it is more likely if she gets a mission that is separate from her desires. For example she gets the mission to kill the Sand Snakes. Or the Hisgh Sparrow? Or Ramsey. Or even a member of her own family? Possibilities are endless. OK, that's it for now.

And how exactly does this affect the no spoiler thread?

First one to reply? A full day after THIS episode? What the... YES! (Not much more to say). Apart from that: Many more developments everywhere. Reek back to Theon, good. The Throne of the Iron Islands vacant. Lannisters vs Sparrows just a matter of time. Surely Sansa will not end up Castle Black, or if she does, Jon Snow won't be there, it's always this way. Will the Bolton army march North? Ramsay.. no words needed, I'm looking forward to seeing his end, sick sadist bastard. Looking forward to the next episode! "Oathbreaker". Who will break his/her oath?

Small question about this, if anyone can answer it without spoilers: How did they manage to kill Trystane actually? At the final episode of season 5, didn't we see him sailing away with Jaime and Myrcella heading for King's Landing? I'm a bit confused.

tallTale, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing and Dornishwoman's Husband, you all are aware that this is the NO SPOILERS topic aren't you?

I forgot to add yesterday: Arysansa - I totally agree on your comments on the Stannis scenes, very unlikely for a military commander, this should have been solved a bit more elegantly. I'm not exactly sure about the relation between show and books but I'm sure GRR Martin must have a basic idea of where he's going and at least give the screenwriters some insight, after all they probably need to include some keys way in advance? I think the cliffhangers were more done to keep people wondering - they must have shot the full scenes rather than making a cut and trying to re-arrange everyone in the same position to complete the scene during the shots for season 6... We'll see. In our world: Pretty final, agreed. In Westeros with magic and supernatural powers, not so much. Personally, I'd bet he's coming back.

Thanks and you're welcome. To somewhat quote someone you know very well: "I have not read a single book 1. I am incapable of spoilers." ;) Exactly. Suspicious I'd say. I bet against Davos' suicide. At least it will not be a real suicide like cutting his throat or jumping down the wall. I think he'll try to kill Melissandre (possibly even knowing he'll fail) an be killed by either by her or Jon.

Ollie could not deal with the loss he suffered and turned it into hatred. His reaction is more understandable than your statement and choice of words.

Maybe a new topic should be created for book readers vs show viewers? And isn't there a separate "How did your non-reader friends react etc..." topic? As to the show. Wow. Just wow. I am speechless. Once again, I did not see this happen, Jon Snow... one of my most favourite characters. I completely disagree with your assessment that the episode was not a finale. Maybe there was a bit much going on for one single episode (but then I always would prefer more character/background and less action), but overall exactly because of this it was (strategically thinking) a great finale. Essentially all threads were very intense, developed, and all have open ends, keep you wondering, even if you like only one house / storyline - you will be excited for the next season, no? To expand your summary: Jon: I agree he must be coming back. The romantics will dream that this was just a nightmare and he'll wake up at the start of next season. I think it is more likely that Melissandre will turn him into something, after all he has royal blood. Would she even have the power to heal him (after all she was quite interested in him). A White Walker resurrection sounds interesting, but he was killed by humans - unless they throw him over the wall which seems not unlikely. But then, shouldn't that be saved for later? And now, what is going to happen to the Wildlings? A massacre? So Melissandre. She managed to kill Stannis’ heir and wife, his army, maybe him too. Was her goal the downfall of Stannis all along? Or did she miscalculate her position (not so likely)? Or did she decide against Stannis once she had met Jon? Death(?) of Stannis, I also agree, not sure. Usually the show quite enjoys graphic killing, so it was definitely a deliberate act to not show it - to keep us wondering. I also tend to think he's dead but who knows? Brienne might think he could be a token to free Sansa... Sansa / Theon: Same thing - dead or not? You thought it was suicide, possible, I'm more inclined to think escape. It's Winterfell after all, they both know it perfectly (and furthermore in movies there is way too often a conveniently located haystack etc ;)), maybe somebody ended up seeing the candle after all? Dany’s story: I confess, I always liked it. Now, not a good position for her, if I remember correctly, only a few Dothraki joined her back then, a lot were hostile, right? (Maybe I should re-watch all 5 seasons.) But then, we don’t know what happened with them in the meantime. And certainly a more seasoned queen is returning now. Tyrion and Varys, great scene, I have grown fond of Tyrion and it will be interesting to see how this interim government will deal with the civil war. Ah, and what will happen to the two remaining dragons? Arya's story, I’m excited about it too, she’s one of my favourite characters, but how will such a strong-willed person become no one? Sounds like quite a fight against herself Cercei's walk: Yes I agree it was very long, could have been shorter, an orgy of humiliation, and I guess that was exactly the point. We have all known her for 5 seasons, now compare this walk to everything that happened before and imagine, how her hatred must have burned in her during this long long awful walk, and how her hatred will burn in the next season… Cercei’s return to the palace: I need to re-watch the episode, but it definitely felt there is something very wrong. With the Grandmaester’s look, this silent giant, her uncle over-friendly and over-protective, felt fake, I think huge changes must have happened in the palace and not in Tommen’s / Cercei’s favour… Also, we have not seen anything of Tommen and Margaery for two(?) episodes. Jaime/Myrcella: I’m not surprised. The sudden change in Ellaria last episode, was just to easy, not credible, it was clear something bad was going to happen. Will Jaime or Trystane have antidote (they all, at least Doran, should be smart enough to know Ellaria a bit and have taken precautions). Will Trystane blame Jaime and kill him? Will Jaime take Trystane hostage to have a token for revenge? Will they both turn the boat to turn against Ellaria? Will Ellaria also kill Doran and rule, open a new front on the Lannisters? So so many questions, so so many possibilities, and so so many months until season 6...

@mankytoes This is pretty much my stance too. Same question as in the last episode topic, so you'll get my same answer. ;) Of course now we have an additional possibility: He touched Daenerys, so she might get it...

This was an intense, disturbing, great episode. I felt a couple of episodes at the start of this season were not so convincing, but especially the last two, wow. I'm not sure it makes sense to discuss such general issues in a specific episode topic but anyways: Why is this "descending" and "an all time low"? Can you please explain what you mean?

I'm wondering about that too. Personally I think it would be weird to bring him back just to kill him off so quickly. So I definitely think he'll live a while. It might be that for fight the illness is an advantage? I don't remember the details but grey scale is also called stone men or stone people right? So does it mean the scales are very hard and as long as he lives he'll be somewhat invulnerable at all areas infected? He could turn into some kind of Sigurd/Siegfried-like superfighter? Also I was thinking maybe at some point they realise that there is some connection/bond between greyscale and dragons? What I didn't fully understand a few episodes again: why did the greyscale people attack Jorah's/Tyrion's boat? Because they wanted to kill and rob them? Because they hope to catch the boat and escape from where they are? Because they turn crazy/mindless and attack everyone (a little bit like the white walker zombies)? Were there hints about this that I missed?

Interesting point. But if gold = Lannister than it would mean that their death comes by Lannisters as well. That could become true for Tommen if he dies as a result of the investigation his relative backed, but it was not true for Joffrey (unless you argue it was his own cruel personality that got him killed).

So... this prophesy. It was vague, as prophesies often are, yet generally in such stories we can assume that they come true. Here's a link to just the prophecy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6kQJ9HPpQ4 So, the three questions were: 1. Will I marry the prince? 2. But I will be queen? 3. Will we have kids? Part of it has already happened. Prophecy 1 explains her husband. And prophecy 3 was accurate on her having three kids (with Jaime) and the king having many (20) bastards. Knowing Prophesy 2 explains why Cersei hated (feared?) both Sansa and Margaery from the very beginning. Because the answer of the witch was she will only be queen for a time, „then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear”. We can assume that the younger one is Margaery Tyrell, would you agree? "all you hold dear" to me sounds as if she was speaking of people not power wealth etc, otherwise she would have said "everything you hold dear", no? All must include Jaime and the three children, right? Yet it was not Margaery but Ollena Tyrell who killed Joffrey. Or do you think "take" here means not kill but just take away from her influence? This was the case with Joffrey, who treated Cersei worse once he had Margaery. But this would then mean Margaery will also have to take/kill Tommen, and Myrcella and Jaime - right? Prophesy 3 also includes the fate of their children: “gold will be their crowns, gold their shrouds” I would conclude that they all will rule at some point (golden crowns). Do you think this means Rule on the Iron Throne (so Myrcella will be on the Iron Throne too)? Or is Dorne already a golden crown? As with the golden shrouds the question is whether this simply means that they will all die as rulers, in their palaces rather than in battle? Or is it closer than that, Joffrey died from poison out of a golden goblet, will the other two die of something directly related to gold too? What do you think? But in any way the prophecy does not mention that Cersei will see them all dying like Joffrey, it just merely states that they will die (which is a pretty save guess ;)).

Thanks, it was the first episode of this season. There's a clip with just the prophesy on youtube which I now re-watched. In my opinion nothing there indicates that Tommen starves himself to death. It says about her kids “gold will be their crowns, gold their shrouds”. Very vague (as prophesies often are. ;)) I would conclude that they all will rule at some point (golden crowns). As with the golden shrouds the question is whether this means that they will all die as rulers, in their palaces rather than in battle? Or is it closer than that, Joffrey died from poison out of a golden goblet, will the other two die of something directly related to gold too? So as to Tommen starving. I’m still doubtful. Yes he indicated it and the advisor said so – but can we trust that’s really what’s happening? Tommen has so far been characterized as a weakling who is easy to influence. Not exactly the character to inflict suffering on himself, and even if so, definitely the character who would stop if some authority would convince him there are better ways. The Olenna Tyrell? His greatuncle? In my opinion Tommen starving to death would even kind of contradict the prophesy. It said that Cersei will be queen for a time but „then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear”. Tommen is one of the three kids she holds dear, so if he starves himself to death, would he really have been taken by this young queen? Also the prophesy kind of indicates that there should be a turn in this whole trial business against Cersei too, because right now it is her relative and the High Sparrow who are casting her down, when according to the prophesy it should be a queen… At the moment Cersei seems far away from the Iron Throne. For now Jaime can not bring anyone home, even if he was not captured in Dorne because he would be put to jail and face the same charges as Cersei. If she was convicted, wouldn’t the children immediately lose the claim to the throne, maybe also be persecuted as products of incest? But as said I expect some turns in these trials.

1) Good point! Which episode was this again? I remember she got this prophesy but maybe I should re-watch. 2) True. She definitely has more to be strong for, more to fight for. 3) I'm not sure that can be explained without spoilers, maybe we'll see more about that in the future? For now I would agree with the explanation you have already given. In the world they live in (and actually ours too) (High) Treason can not go unpunished (compare also to the advisor she had executed a few episodes ago). So I think this was Tyrion's compromise to spare his life and at the same time he could prove his qualities as an advisor. From what we have seen from Tyrion I think he was actually convinced of what he said and as a ruler might have taken a similar decision. I'm not sure however Jorah would not be a good advisor because of his affections, wasn't Tyrion's point that a ruler needs people who are devoted to them? As long Jorah puts her above his own interest (which he did)?

Thanks for the answers!

Great episode! Liked the focus on the North with some developments in the other areas. I wonder what Ramsay's up to with his 20 men. Questions: How is this with the White Walkers. Are they the same as those skeletons or are the White Walkers only those whiteish beings like the one John fought and the one he had eye contact with at the end? Because it was said only Dragon Stone could kill a White Walker. But still in ths fight they did kill skeletons right, or rather they can kill them temporarily until they are resurrected by the leaders? And people killed by the skeletons turn into skeletons too, but not into White Walkers, right? Thanks for the answer, I know I could google but I'm too scared of spoilers. ;) So if any of these questions can't be answered yet, please ignore, but I'm sure it has been sort of explained in previous seasons, I only can't tremember.

I agree more horrors are to be expected. (I also find it a bit curious nobody had warned her of Theon before the wedding, but then it probably was too late already anyways.) Already now Theon struggles seeing her suffer. I'm sure at one point he'll act.

Not sure that would have been so easy. The scenes suggest she's under tight control and surveillance. But patience might have been an idea. The elderly lady has made it to her door once, she might have done so a second time.