Julia H.

No, I'm not bending anything, and there is nothing presumptive about this. We know that Robert and Rhaegar are two very different types of men, with very different attitudes and personalities. It is totally possible that a girl does not want one of them and likes the other one. There is no reason why Lyanna should not see the difference between the two even if she does not give a complete lecture about it on page - actually, it is rather probable that she did see the difference. A "cheater is a cheater" is a terribly simplified view. How many of us are there who have never ended an otherwise serious commitment due to a change of feelings or circumstances? That's very different from someone who is essentially an immature pleasure-seeker, unable or unwilling to think of consequences or responsibility and is continually looking for one-night adventures - married or nor married. As for your other questions: Well, this is about a completely different line of possibilities. Earlier, you had brought up the idea that Lyanna falling for Rhaegar did not make sense because she did not like Robert. I completely disagree with this because a girl not liking one kind of person does not necessarily prevent her from liking another kind of person. Now, if you want to pursue the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were not in love, feel free to do it, just find better arguments than "Rhaegar was just like Robert", which is simply not true.

Robert sleeps with almost literally every young woman who comes his way. He fathers bastards left, right and centre without committing himself. He enjoys visiting brothels and chasing screaming peasant girls. He makes promises to get the girl and forgets them almost immediately. That's vastly different from a man who marries one woman and later enters into a relationship with another one and actually commits himself in both relationships. Rhaegar does not chase every woman prettier than a scarecrow and does not visit brothels. Lyanna is not Marianne Dashwood, who condemns "second attachments" as such, what she is appalled by is irresponsible promiscuity without any real commitment.

A long time ago, (in the previous RLJ thread) there was a post in which I replied to @Frey family reunion and it was only just now that I discovered that I had received a reply asking me to elaborate. Sorry for being so late in my response but here it is finally. I hope it's not too late. The posts are here and here. @Frey family reunion said: Please elaborate. ETA: I suppose it's only fair that I elaborate on my parallel to Siegfried. In reality, I think the closer parallels for Jon rests in the Volsunga one of the Norse sagas that Wagner took his inspiration from. In the Volsunga saga, King Volung's daughter Signy, is given over to King Siggeir in an arranged marriage. Like Lyanna's arranged marriage to Robert, Signy is not happy with the arrangement. Unlike Lyanna, she goes ahead with it. During the wedding, Signy's brother, Sigmund, also unhappy with the match, gives offense to King Siggeir. In some tales, Siggeir's jealousy with Sigmund arises from Sigmund being able to free a sword, Gram, embedded by a black cloaked stranger (Odin) into a tree, Barnstokk. Later King Siggeri lures King Volung, Sigmund and his brothers to his lands where he imprisons, them. They are put in stocks and one after another become a meal to a giant she-wolf. Sigmund is the last one left alive, when he is rescued by his sister, Signy who helps him kill the giant she-wofl. Signy, still unhappy with her marriage to King Siggeir, sends her children with Siggeir to Sigmund to help him gain vengeance against her husband. Each of her children fail, so she then tricks her brother Sigmund into having sex with her, and thereafter gives birth to Sinfjotli. It's apparently noteworthy that Sinfjotli grows to be a powerful warrior since his has Volsung blood on both sides of his parents. Sinfjotli's purpose in life becomes to take vengeance for the murders of his grandfather and uncles. In the Poetic Edda, Sinfjotli is accused of being a werewolf. In some of the stories Sinfjotli gains possession of a wolf cloak which allows him to transform into a wolf. After they take their vengeance on King Siggeir, (some of the stories attribute Siggeir's death to Signy who lights their house on fire, killing Siggeri, herself, and her children with Siggeir), Sigmund and Sinfjotli return home where Sigmund marries Borghild and have several children together. However, Sigmund's new wife has nothing but hatred for Sigmund's son from another mother, and devises ways to try and poison Sinfjotli, eventually succeeding. So here we have some repeating parallels with our story in ASOIF. We have the idea of an arranged marriage, where the bride expresses resentment for the marriage. We have a father and son(s) lured into the clutches of a king where they are executed. We have a giant she-wolf, who's death starts a chain of events. We have a character in Sinfjotli (the son of the lady who was the subject of the unwanted marriage) who can change into a wolf. And finally we have this self same character who's father's new wife shows nothing but contempt. Later Sigmund remarries Hjordis and she becomes pregnant with their son, Sigurd (aka Siegfried). Sigmund's sword Gram becomes shattered in battle and Sigmund becomes mortally wounded. Sigmund gives the shattered sword to his wife, Hjordis, and tells her to keep the broken sword until it can be reforged and given to their unborn son, Sigurd. When the broken sword is reforged it becomes more powerful than ever, and Sigurd/Siegfried uses the sword to help slay the dwarf turned dragon, Fafnir. Later Sigurd finds the warrior maiden, Brynhild, and they end up having a star crossed love affair of their own. Wagner took bits and pieces of the Volunga saga as inspiration. His Siegfried is basically Sigurd combined with the origin story (at least the incest part) of Sinfjotli. First of all, thanks for your own elaboration. I agree about the existence of possible mythological allusions and motifs in ASOIAF. The saga you describe may well be a common source for both Wagner and GRRM. In addition to the parallels you mention, I think the incest motif belongs first and foremost to Cersei and Jaime. Here, too, the female sibling is married to a king that she hates, and she also wants to take revenge on him – not exactly using her own sons but another young relative of hers (Lancel). As for the she-wolf who is killed, well, the giant mythological she-wolf also kills others, which makes me think less of Lyanna and more of a certain lioness, on the one hand, and of a certain Lady in the Riverlands on the other hand – both are likely to be killed (or put to a final rest) in the upcoming plot. Then the sword. There is a “reforged” sword in our story, which originally belongs to the Starks, but it is reforged by the Lannisters, and they are also the family obsessed with special swords – their lost Valyrian sword, Jaime’s skill with the sword, Joffrey and his various swords. The dwarf (giant?) turned dragon reminds me of Tyrion as a secret Targaryen(?). We have two warrior women with a romantic interest, one is Ygritte, the other one is Brienne, and it is the latter who reminds me more of Brynhild – it is partly her name, but it is also her description and the quasi-mythological references around her (but I can also see Ygritte as a Valkyrie). All in all, Jaime very much seems to be an amalgamation of Sigmund and Sigurd (Siegfried) to me, more so than Jon. It’s true that Jon also has some of those associations – an affair with a warrior woman, the stabbing; and both Jon and Jaime have had issues with oathkeeping. However, Jaime has also already killed a “dragon” – King Aerys – but then we’ll have to see if there will be any more dragon killings in the story. Now, back to Wagner and the elaboration on my earlier comment. I said I see Jon Snow more as Parsifal (as in the opera) than Siegfried. Parsifal is the son of a knight who dies in battle before Parsifal is born. After that, Parsifal’s mother has only one purpose in life: to protect her son. Therefore, she keeps him ignorant of who his father was, and protects him from any worldly knowledge, raising him in a forest away from all people. Thus, Parsifal literally “knows nothing”. Growing up, he wanders further and further from his home, finally forgetting about his mother, forgetting even his own name. He arrives in a remote place called Monsalvat (still in a forest), where an order of knights guards the Holy Grail in a castle. The knights have sworn to a life of virtue and chastity, giving up their lives to service. However, currently the order is in trouble: their king, Amfortas broke his vow and is now suffering from an unhealing wound and terrible pain, making him scarcely able to perform his daily duty, which affects all the knights. Since the knights have a prophecy of a “pure fool” who is made knowledgeable by compassion, they have great hopes in Parsifal, but seemingly nothing happens that would indicate that the young man has any promise of being the one who could save them all, so they dismiss him. In reality, however, Parsifal is deeply moved by the king’s suffering, and with this compassion in his heart, he sets out on a quest with the purpose of freeing Amfortas from the pain and remorse. He has to face dark magic and has to prove his courage and perseverance. The story involves a wild woman (Kundry, a sorceress) who had seduced Amfortas and who is, in the end, refused by Parsifal. Parsifal finds out the truth about his parents, and his mother’s death causes him grief and remorse that almost makes him succumb to temptation (rather like Robb perhaps), but he can feel the pain that Amfortas suffers and that makes him strong again. Having accomplished the task, he returns to Monsalvat, where he arrives on Good Friday. He delivers the king from his suffering. Sinners are forgiven, and Parsifal becomes the new king of the knights. So, with Jon Snow, we have someone who does not know about his origins; someone who - somewhere on the border of the real and the magical - joins an order to guard something; a hero who is repeatedly described as “knowing nothing” (a very important attribute of Parsifal). A vow of chastity is involved. Furthermore, we can fully expect that Jon will discover his real parentage. Another fundamental Parsifal-motif is compassion, and that is exactly Jon Snow’s best personality trait – his ability to feel compassion for suffering humans. The religious motif of Good Friday is replaced by the importance of spring to come again, and with it, salvation from the threat of winter and its magical creatures. The Holy Spring in the opera can be paralleled with the various springs found in the North. I also think that – perhaps just as Jaime is an amalgamation of Sigmund and Siegfried – Jon Snow is parallel not only to Parsifal but also to Amfortas in some respects, with Ygritte being a parallel to Kundry. (But then again, Jaime also shows some resemblance to Amfortas.) I, personally, find these parallels very interesting.