Dolorous Gabe

I'd be fine with a carbon copy, but really I just want it to be consistent with how they change it. When they change it, they should take the change into consideration further down the line. My main problem with the show is that they've changed things and then taken the same route with characters whose motivations and personality don't completely match up. Next season could be very interesting if they've learned from this and decide to take their own route and follow through with it. I'd rather they do that now, especially if they do end up catching up with the books.

The trouble is, we can't judge the Missandei/Grey Worm stuff yet because we don't know where D&D are going to take the story. If it turns out to be important, then fine, but if it's just there because D&D wanted to put an unusual love story between them into the story, I'm not convinced it was time well spent. I'm guessing they're building it up so they can kill off Grey Worm and have Missandei get all emotional about it, or perhaps vice-versa.

It's perhaps not "illogical", but it doesn't make as much sense. Book-Shae and TV-Shae are different. Book-Shae was an opportunist playing Tyrion for a decadent lifestyle, and Tyrion was happy to have such a willing player of the role of his sex kitten so had his blinkers on. TV-Shae actually cares about Tyrion and Sansa. Condemning them to death just because he sent her away for her own protection simply doesn't makes sense for TV-Shae. Having changed her, they should also have changed how the whole situation unfolds. It's not a problem with there being changes to characters or story, it's a problem with changes that they don't keep to. If you change one thing, you should change other things down the line that make less sense because of the change. Cause and effect plays a big part in ASoIaF and Martin meticulously built the story around his characters' decisions, which were often based on their life experiences. Tyrion gets a chance at freedom. It has to be something monumental that causes him to confront Tywin, otherwise he's sensible enough to realise he needs to get out of KL. The Tysha reveal is monumental because it's an episode he has been dealing with all his life and arguably shapes his personality and character. To find out that his family betrayed him in such a despicable and brutal fashion does something terrible to his psyche. If it was condemning him to death that made him want to confront and kill someone surely it would be Cersei he would want to kill, who accused him and desperately wanted him dead. Tywin disliked Tyrion but he was forced into his position as judge as Hand Of The King, and it was Tyrion who eventually asked for a Trial By Combat, which Tywin had no control over. I have argued what they should have done is change it so Shae doesn't give her testimony against Tyrion, is caught before she makes the ship and hanged by Tywin as he promised he would. If their love was truly real as the show had us believe, Tyrion might then have sought vengeance for the killing of the Shae he loved. Also, the show did NOT make it look as though Shae was coerced into testifying against Tyrion. She looked in complete control of what she was doing. She had not been built up to be spiteful in the preceding seasons.

I love Blade Runner. Read the book later and wasn't keen on it.

TV-Shae and book-Shae are very different. You're right to question Shae's motivations for her actions because TV-Shae seemed to genuinely care about Tyrion and Sansa. Book-Shae never did really care; she was an opportunist living as resplendent a life as she could get. Tyrion is fooled in the book by the fact that an extremely beautiful woman played perfectly the part of his personal sex kitten. The TV Tyrion-Shae relationship was portrayed as genuine up until he emotionally sends her away to save her. Then she suddenly turns, inexplicably in my opinion, into the one-dimensional lover scorned trope. Sansa's change is perhaps too sudden but her arc allows for it. Her lengthy experience of being a piece in the King's Landing Game allied with Littlefinger's lessons in playing the game are supposed to be rubbing off on her. The "young boy" was meant to be one of the Children Of The Forest, who were said to have died out long ago. Bran used to love Old Nan's stories about them, which made his indifference to the fact that one had just saved them quite disappointing. In the book they're not meant to look like human children. Not sure where the idea of fireballs came from. As to Arya, her arc is filled with tragedy and horror which are quickly desensitising her. She is a wonderful character that life's injustices are turning into a vengeance driven automaton. The interesting thing will be how she comes back from that, but also how much vengeance she takes beforehand.

Jaime had been kept in chains for a very long time, so he was in a fairly poor state when he fought Brienne. Brienne is meant to be extremely good but Jaime name-checks The Hound as someone who could beat him in the books. Personally, I would say The Hound's festering wound in the neck was a factor. It wasn't mentioned in the scene but preceding episodes have alluded to its effect on him. I gotta say, I try hard to avoid letting changes from the book affect me. If they want to change a few things, that's fine, but they have to recreate the story to fit some of these changes. D&D's problem lately is that they're making changes to characters and events that mean certain dialogues and events taken directly from the book don't make much sense. GRRM carefully plotted out his characters that their motivations are explainable by life events that made them who/what they are. D&D have to follow through and change major plot points if things are changed that mean what happens in the books doesn't fully make sense. Tyrion needed more of a reason to confront Tywin. Shae, having built her character up and made her feelings for Tyrion genuine, needed more of a reason to give a false testimony against Tyrion and Sansa. Having a book-portrayal Cersei who never truly loved Jaime but instead wanted to be Jaime then out of nowhere admit her incest to Tywin and proclaim their love. There are many similar instances. D&D need to work to a plan of their own and stick with it. I have a sneaking suspicion they genuinely only had a plan to reach RW and thought no further. Now they're stuck trying to find a way to cut down AFFC and ADWD with a new plan that doesn't entirely fit with their old one. Although, if Tyrion's next phase is the same as it is in the books, it won't make much sense that he and Jaime parted on such good terms.

Excellent post!

- except Tysha was not removed. They included that piece of backstory all the while making Shae into a more likeable and empathic character. I think it's a shame you don't appreciate the subtleties of Tyrion's character and how he became the kind of person he is, much of which was shaped by the Tysha experience. The problem however is not that they removed the Tysha reveal, it's that they built up Shae's character and then still had her do what she did. Having changed her, things should have happened differently in the end. I personally think Tywin should have made good on his promise to have any whore he had in KL killed, setting off Tyrion's rage. +- I will accept that Tyrion making this jest after what had just happened was unlikely given his state of mind. However, while Tywin is a great character he is not a pleasant man. I don't think there was a major difference in the book portrayal and the show portrayal. His actions have at times been despicable (as in the case of Tysha). - this is why Martin made any magic come at a cost. Beric's resurrections come at a cost each time and Lady Stoneheart is not who she was previously. Let's not forget here, Martin has mentioned how he believes Gandalf should never have returned in LotR. He's smart about how these magical events affect people. Also, why include the Thoros/Beric resurrections in the show if there is to be no Lady Stoneheart? If you change things, you have to change it enough to make it work on a different level. - again, Tysha is massively important to Tyrion. Some people, the show runners included, seem to love Jaime. It's fine that they changed that to keep Tyrion and Jaime's closeness but it's problematic that they don't have a real reason for him to go bonkers and kill his father. I don't think finding Shae in Tywin's bed is quite enough and having her there in the first place is against the character of Shae they have built up over the seasons. + agreed on the sequence beyond the wall. It was possibly the best sequence of the episode and agree on the rest of the points. I shed a tear for Ygritte, though I missed Jon's line about getting her to Maester Aemon as it makes Jon seem more desperate to keep her alive than he seemed in the show. It seemed a half-hearted "we'll go back to the cave". I'll say this again. When D&D change the characters as they did with Shae, they should really be giving them different paths. It didn't make any sense for show-Shae to act the way she did.

They should have had Tywin catch Shae and make good on his promise to have any whore he had in KL killed. That would have given Tyrion the necessary anger towards Tywin to find and kill him. Shae should have tried to get on the ship but get caught and never end up condemning Tyrion in the trial as that was so out of character for show-Shae.

I saw an interview in which Lena expressed her belief that Cersei wants to be Jaime rather than truly loves him. I thought they were going that way in the show as that was the impression I got before reading the books. I thought Cersei practically articulated that feeling. The books confirmed this for me. You're right though, that scene suggested otherwise and it baffles me that they've changed that interpretation in just one swift scene so far in. If they're going to change things, they need to follow through on that change and make it work on the level they have altered it to. For example, if you take out the Tysha reveal and make Shae into a more dignified and likable character then it would have been better to change it so much that it makes it work, by which I mean not have her condemn him to death. Maybe they could have had Tywin catch Shae and have her killed, giving Tyrion the stronger motivation for confronting and killing him when he escapes. That's just off the top of my head and it would have worked better than not having the Tysha reveal and including the Shae betrayal.

The trouble is, the way they changed Shae to make her into a more well-rounded, caring and dignified character doesn't fit with what just happened. I found it ridiculous that show Shae would condemn Tyrion to death simply because he tried to force her onto a ship away from KL. As to the motivation for Tyrion to kill Shae, yes the betrayal was bad, but thinking clearly Tyrion would never have gone up to the tower of the hand in the first place. The justification for the motive is there but the point of the Tysha reveal is that the major event from his youth that has shaped his development into the person he is was based on a lie. Learning of the major betrayal of his family is a greater reason for sending him over the edge and makes much more sense. I rated the episode a 6 because what was done well was excellent but what was done poorly was very disappointing. Fairly indicative of the season in my opinion.

It wasn't that inexplicable given the state of the NW, which Martin had well established was not good and populated with petty grievances at the top, like between Cotter Pyke & Bowen Marsh and between Ser Alliser & almost everyone. You make good points regarding Jon showing leadership qualities in the show but you're wrong to suggest that it didn't make sense in the book. Most people are reasonably convinced of Jon's innocence through the fact that he warned them of the impending attack and led the Watch in defending the wall against said attack. The only reason it persists is because of Thorne and Slynt.

Yeah I didn't like how they made it so black and white by having that woman be so vile just so Ygritte killing her doesn't seem so bad. I don't have a problem with her finding a terrified Gilly with the child and sparing them. I feel like you can justify that as her experience with Jon rubbing off on her. I know there's no hint of that in the books but I think it's justifiable.

^This^ I agree with what's being said about shock value. Everything is amped up in the show for effect. I don't think what D&D have done is bad though. I may never have gravitated to the books if it weren't for their screen adaptation, so I have to be hugely thankful to them for that. I think if you can switch off your knowledge from the books, the show is very entertaining and engrossing. There was never any chance that the subtleties and scope of the books could translate completely effectively onto the screen because as mediums they are vastly different. I think they have made a fair few mistakes, but not enough to turn great source material into rubbish.

The Wire was the greatest achievement in a modern world of hugely improved television drama thanks largely to HBO. It was absolutely stunning and will take some beating, though I have greater personal love for Six Feet Under. I read all the ASoIaF books within 2 months after watching the TV series up to the end of season 3 and am now a massive fan of the books. I still love the TV series but somehow I knew I would love the books from watching the show. Part of me wishes I had read the books first as I'd love to know how I'd react to RW in the books without knowing it was coming. Seems to me D&D did a stunning job with RW though and Michelle Fairley's work was absolutely incredible. I always felt it seemed less of a shock in the books with Robb not being a POV character and the many references foretelling it but I guess knowing it was coming made it easy to see the signs. I'm quite torn on season 4 because with this being the first time I've watched the show having read the books I feel more underwhelmed than I was on previous seasons and I'm worried I'm judging it harshly as a new fan of the books. They seem to have added more of their own stuff this season though. I would have expected them to go further into AFFC and ADWD given how the whole season has been based upon less than half the material of AGOT and ACOK. Feels like they've been padding it out too much with unnecessary stuff.

The 1st season of the series is pretty much exactly the same as the book. That steadily changes. This season there are more changes and many seem unnecessary. I'm still enjoying it, but I would argue they have got it wrong. If seasons 1-3 were more Peter Jackson's LoTR, season 4 is more Peter Jackson's The Hobbit. There previously were good reasons for changing things to keep the story moving in adapting a lengthy source material with so many characters, but season 4 has condensed what is the smallest section of the story so far (roughly 400 pages, less than half of ACoK and AGoT) into a whole season, and as such they have been adding unnecessary extras to pad it out (much like Peter Jackson's The Hobbit). It's sad to me because ASoS was my favourite book in ASoIaF so far. It hasn't been bad, it just feels like for once D&D have got it wrong. If they think they're going to finish the whole thing at this pace in 7 seasons they're delusional.

Long time reader, first time poster. Much like the rest of season 4, I enjoyed the episode overall but I had numerous problems with it. Most of the issues have already been mentioned (GW/Missandei, beetles,) so I'll just add one I've not yet noticed: "If you die before you say her name, Ser, I will hunt you through all seven hells" Sorry if someone else has mentioned it but I was really looking forward to the above line being performed by Pedro Pascal and it wasn't delivered. I'd love to know why D&D occasionally ignore such gold from the books. Dolorous Edd got a decent line but he's largely been ignored despite some of the best gallows humour I've ever read (I admit I'm something of a fan!).