HoodedCrow

I thank you for this thread. I completely missed the Bowen Marsh/ Lannister connection. I was kind of rushing through the Slynt stuff because I disliked him so. Good points on the different points of view on Jon. I think of Jon as someone who tries hard to do the right thing, though he had mentors and friends who help him that someone like Sansa does not have. Going by the book is not what what makes sense in his complicated situation, and most people would not like him if he did and brushed off all the dangers and heart of the story. But I can see how people get there.

Lots of intriguing red door ideas. I have wondered, being younger than Martin but probably older than many people here, about the lyrics of The Lemon Tree which is on a formerly ubiquitous Peter, Paul and Mary album, which Martin could not have missed. Probably has it! The lyrics I question which might have inspired the lemon symbolism involve this: Lemon tree very pretty for the lemon flower is sweet, but the fruit of the poor lemon is impossible to eat. I think it’s about lost love. it could be about short term love that is too sour to eat long term. it would fit with Sansa’s experience of Joffrey. But in the end,She finds the way of eating lemons with sugar in cakes. Dany may have that with the loves she has that don’t last. Maybe she will die having had some sweetness that turns sour, by circumstance or death. The red door, fire, may be the beginning and end of her journey but there will be some lemon trees... loves, a child. Success in battle, that doesn’t turn out long term. I don’t think Martin would have had these two images by accident!

You are right, the vows for the NW say “ I am the horn that wakes the sleepers”. But I thought there was another possibility for the horn...the one that Sam has? Samwell of Hornhill, right? But it could mean that the NW or even individuals or groups might be the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield and the sword, etc. Who wrote the vow? Who is the “I”? I am believe that I am number six...from The Prisoner.:)...joke for old timers. There is the issue of personal responsibility, but then, this is a world in which dragons fly, and Warger’s warg. This series features complicated moral situations.

So, Martin has Jon say, “ Arya, so what, I’m The LC now, so it’s none of my business”. “Ygritte is dead, now that trash will quit hampering my style.” “Wildlings make good zombies” Not great human being material, if that is his attitude, and wouldn’t have been voted in. Yes, he could have made other choices, but his conflicts are signs of a good person also. Although some people think psychopathy is a good thing in leaders as long as they project confident masculinity. It depends partly if you are a black and white thinker, and Martin is not. He explores this ground in many ways. Hey, just thought, do you think the Horn of Jaruman could revive the undead from their sleep?

I have been the recipient of a certain religions deflecting tactics before. One of them is to tick you off and then whine.

Thanks for your replies! Gee, and I thought I had a answer for middle Eastern peace! A fair few of my ancestors were Vikings via northern England/Scotland, but though I’m fond of those countries, I don’t want to live there. And ahem, the religion I was raised in has a lot of ties to Nazareth and Jerusalem, but it doesnt entitle me to land. I guess according to the Mormons they already came here in a wooden submarine with pluggable airholes, if I understand correctly, thousands of years ago. I guess my bestie, my adopted nephews, my business partner, my sweetie, my favorite philosophers, comedians, judges, singers, artists, scientists, lawyers, and writers all are Jewish or part Jewish, and they are not Israeli, so it’s hard for me to get it. The first person who ever made sense of religion to me was a rabbi. Jews believe there will be a new messiah, right? What is wrong with someone inspired divinely to lead Jews to a new promised land, (Chuck Schumer, lol), since North Am wasn’t available at the time of Moses. Here there is milk and honey, all you want, unless roundup kills off all our bees. I could imagine a stunning New Zion, and New Jerusalem, or more, in some places where they would not be under siege. They could have water, and lots of arable farmland, in most Canadian provinces, where there is lots of space. In the US, Kansas could really use an economic boost now that GOP policies have devastated their economy! Detroit needs help. There’s lots of space in upstate New York, or some less populated red states. They could bring us all sorts of tech to deal with the creation of arable land and green energy. I would welcome them all, and I’m sure they would enjoy lots of fellow Jews here. In Canada, they could help us stave off American invasion. Lots of support from Montreal, btw. Oh well. What can you say, I’m an INFP.

I have a question for the group. I have a stereotype of Jewish people as being highly literate, conscientious and humour appreciating. Any Native English speaker who learns Hebrew impresses me. Any group that can withstand the onslaught of Santa and the Easter bunny and assumed Christianity is amazing, too. I am plenty disturbed by the apartheid of Palestinians. If I had my ignorant way, I would invite all Israelis to come to the US or Canada, and bring all the precious buildings and loads of soil, as they wish. There could be a fleet of ships all called The Ark (something else) There would be impressive strong people, who don’t appreciate neo nazis. There would be a change in Middle East circumstances, and less defensive expenses. Oi Vey, is this wrong?

I would rather die than submit to the awful diection and values of the current owners of the us. Supporting poisoners and dismembering regimes for money, really? Rather, I would invite California, Washington DC, Washington state, Oregon, NY, New England, and other more enlightened states to join us in a New Canada. It always was meant to be. By the way, in my wide experience, misogyny is not nearly as strong as it is in the us, or is racism, or science shaming. People are healthier, happier, more egalitarian and more literate. Does that scare you Altherion or would you like to join a new commonwealth? By the way, Canadians often beat you in war games with fewer resources, several birdies have told me. I know the military are not supposed to follow unlawful orders, yet your country is the Abu Graib country, and the Bushes supplies arms to the Nazi’s so who knows. With Trumps evil eye, anthing is possible. I will renounce my us citizenship if needed. Although I enjoyed the history and civics portions, or the citizenship tests. Trumps sliming over the constitution is a good reason to go, among many others. I’m leaving permanently in a few days in disgust for the Republican Party. But I will still be able to vote, and will, not that can’t be buried by the people here with poor reasoning skills.

I ama dual citizen moving back to the great white north. They got me to swear to bear arms or spy for the us. However, if they were invading Canada I would serve Canada to the death.

I agree with S John. The sentencing in the US is usually appalling and life destroying, for the prisoners and for thir families. It is racially and class biased. Prison conditions are abusive and almost guaranteed to cause recidivism. There was a recent story about a prisons power outage and lawyers and families not allowed to visit to try to keep the dark and freezing temperatures on the quiet. They needed a generator. The immigrant detention centers are off limits, and kids die there. Actually prisoners get awful medical care and rape does happen as well as unsafe conditions. Americans can have quite an unappealing vindictive streak. However, Manafort is politically connected, and may get pardoned, anyway. Kim Kardashians relative did get pardoned but so did Joe Arpeggio. Unfair all around and almost no reaction to abusive conditions because that’s what most of the public want. Our latest president leads chants about locking up Hillary Clinton who is not guilty of crimes, people choose to blame her for standing by her man; meanwhile Trump runs ragged over the justice system, lies compulsively, is a sexual predator, and has been in court many times for fraudulent dealing. Now he talks to crowds who love him. Eew. Actually I’m going to leave the US while I still can, thanks to dual citizenship. Yes, I’m a dirty immigrant of more than twenty years. I’m lucky.

I thought the judge who calls himself “Caesar of the courtroom” was angling for a SCOTUS appointment. Isn’t that how it works?

Maybe it’s offensive to some, but the radical right Christianity does not have much to do with the Bible.

Republican policies are doing a grand old job of making sure that sea levels keep rising, extreme weather is cultivated, kids will learn better without food subsides, with lead and roundup in water, Mercury in fish, pollution in the air, acid rain and toxic oceans, antibiotics and hormones in meat, poor sex education, early abstinence pregnancies, silly science, lack of drug harm reduction, prison enslavement with ridiculous sentencing, history whitewashing, fewer rights for women, attacks on voting rights. We should all die sooner from the GOP and thus entitlement programs will be reduced in expense. Lower health standards for most, more expensive care for all!

The life expectancy of women in Ancient Greece was something like 33. There was more death because of repeated childbirth, a confining, physically and mentally restricted lifestyle, diseases, religious solutions to ailments, attitude that women were not a priority when it came to food and medicine, because, after all, chattel can be replaced. Even today there is much more risk of death in childbirth for older women and infant death and disability for women older than 35. The Quiverfull family began to have such problems after their many children. Rick Santorums wife began to have risky pregnancies and children with disabilities. His wife had to have a late term abortion or die. Gosh if only we had moontea...

I’d be honored if you fixed my typos. I’d be thankful if you fixed my arthtitic fingers. Off to a business meeting dears. The lemon thing is no doubt key.