Hugorfonics

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Asha is one women. Queen Elizabeth I being a women doesn't suddenly make Tudor England not sexist, neither does Asha leading people make Ironborn suddenly not sexist. Book is very clear that Asha is the exception, not the rule.

Which I addressed. But comparably to the greenlands where I gave examples or like the Ottoman or Spanish Empires, calling them 10x more sexist is incorrect.

2 hours ago, Lady Ella said:

He makes his relationship with Theon worse, and he also makes Theon and Asha rivals. I understand why he wanted to make Theon prove himself first before giving him any major responsibilities, but he could have done that without being a jerk. The boy just wanted some love.

Balon really wanted Asha on the throne though, so that Theon was able to subdue Winterfell and become it's prince and all that jazz was a direct affront to Balons heir. I think the fact that Balon refused to reinforce Theon, like why he gave him a fools job, was because he wanted Asha on the throne as much or equally as much to the North. Which I agree he was really obsessed with because he convoluted his son's jailor with his others sons' killers, which isn't true but it is what it is. 

Although I do agree too that he was worried about outside interference, as his whole career revolved around kicking it out.

Asha I don't think had to be pushed to antagonism though, like Balon or probably way more actually, shes fully invested in the succession and not the war because she doesn't have all that mental baggage from losing ones entire family.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Like @Hugorfonics, I get what you mean. All of Westeros is violent.

Its more then just violent, its awful in pretty much every aspect and while the ironborn are indeed awful, as they are westerosi, some of their traditions are actually good stuff in the long term, which isnt the case in the greenlands. 

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yet, just like said all Western culture has sexism, the Ironborn, like some fraternities (or fans of Andrew Tate, or something like that) crank that crap up to 10

So this is just incorrect. Asha commands her own ship where she bows to no man. Shes able to put her name forward in the Kings... although potentially, Queensmoot. How much of this is Asha growing up losing every brother and therefore the princess had to learn to fingerdance I think is a complicated question, however we can look at Catelyn who had no brother, for a bit, and was trained to be a lord but not a warrior. Similarly Ned is baffled at Aryas interests and goals and I think we can safely say that if Margaery had no brothers she would not be Asha.
Did Aeron think that was stupid? Sure, did Asha herself doubt her prospects? Of course, but Balon actually thought that the world he created would be in actuality placed in his daughters hands, and when the election came about there were indeed ironborn actively cheering for female leadership.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Stannis discourages rape, wanton violence, over the top destruction while taking a city by his troops as far as I'm aware.

He promised the city of KL to the whims of a literal pirate, Saan, who had plans of like, well, pirating a metropolis.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

We don't see the same from Eddard, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I mean I dont even know with this guy. Robb did attack the west and came back with a cows and such but that was more for the threat then the destruction, although, whatever that means in the long run.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin (a horrible person) uses rape, burning, and wanton violence as a technique to make his enemies give up.

No hes just a horrible fucking person that was handed the world at birth and utilized atrocity to stay the path.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

. But even, when I compare Tywin, who uses this horrible action as a purpose, do the Ironborn come out looking good. They do these things.....just because. It doesn't even serve a purpose a lot of time. To loot. To murder. Their goal is murdering and burning rather than something else and then using those things to get that goal.

Again this is incorrect. Here its not even that your just buying into the stereotypes but also Balons military deception? Although your also probably of the belief, which is the common flat earth perception around here that Balon lost. Balon won. 

Quote

His thrice-damned sister was sailing her Black Wind north even now, sure to win a castle of her own. Lord Balon had let no word of the hosting escape the Iron Islands, and Theon's bloody work along the Stony Shore would be put down to sea raiders out for plunder. The northmen would not realize their true peril, not until the hammers fell on Deepwood Motte and Moat Cailin. And after all is done and won, they will make songs for that bitch Asha, and forget that I was even here.

Balons campaign only stopped at his death, if he wasnt murdered the plot would have been vastly different.

Quote

If my father still lived, Moat Cailin would never have fallen. Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north. Euron knew that as well; he simply did not care. No more than he cared what happened to Deepwood Motte or Torrhen's Square. "Euron has no interest in Balon's conquests. My nuncle's off chasing dragons."

The goal of Balon, obviously as he talks about all the fucking time, is feudalism warfare. Tywin himself recognized Balons kingdoms as sincerely won from conquest but was a horrible fucking person who couldnt value the idea of an equal partnership, hence the alliance talks stalled till both were murdered. 

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 People who worked in concentration camps have been shown to be basically normal people without strange or particularly perverse psychologies, but systems of government, cultures in which widespread death, destruction, and rape are considered....good things, not acceptable things to do to get to your main goal, but ACTUALLY THE MAIN GOAL is just a culture I am not sure you want to spend a lot of time defending. You are both sides-ing the Westeros conversation, lol. The leadership of the Iron Isles are essentially the equivalent of a hate group put into a position of power. 

I have absolutely no idea what the fuck your trying to get across. Concentration camps only have existed in times where widespread death and destruction and rape are the goal. Imperialism and Nazism. And if your trying to say that there is no perverse psychology within itself from working at a concentration camp, then I dont even fucking know. 
The Greyjoys are a hategroup? I guess. The ironborn themselves are super into spreading their own culture and disregarding others, but thats just their specific branch of hateful westerosi. However where the ironborn actually morally exceed the others is by the children of thralls, smallfolk bastards or highborn, as full fledged ironborn able to captain their own ship. Seemingly even the house All Men Despise Us is allegedly founded from the blood of a thrall.

On 8/13/2023 at 10:30 AM, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

: Last thing, I promise. Salt wives. Salt wives by themselves are proof that the Iron Islands are the worst. Like...Theon describes it casually that the Ironborn just take slave women and force them into forced marriage with them, where they aren't even respected at all for the rest of their lives....No other culture does this in Westeros (not only legally, but encouraged by your culture)

They all do that! I mean not legally, I suppose, but is stability a bad thing? 
From violent interactions with Pya to ambiguous with Shae to romantic with Ellaria, this does happen everywhere. However where Pya has to thank the gods for being saved by the Kingslayer out of all people Shae was violently strangled to death. Ellaria herself is worried for her childrens fate because their bastards. When she went out with her love she was seated at the kids table by Cersei, while Shae was lucky to be a server. 
Its all mostly wrong although its a bit foreign, for lack of the right word, as well. Ygritte was all like, "I been stolen", to which us and Jon said huh?  But she was, and she didnt view it as a bad thing at all.
Dany threatened to end his whole company but when she saw him, thunderstruck. He in turn was in the stars and pledged his love right then and there. Picked flowers, gave advice, fought and nearly died for her, And when she wakes up in her bed in the morning and Daario is there shes happy, a rare gift in asoiaf. It ends when she gets up because his station and birth is far too down to be seen in matrimony with a Targaryen. 9/10 times its fucked up, but its not always, where it is always everywhere else. I bet Dany and Daario would love to get salt married

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Unfortunately the Ironborn Stereotype is the 'reality' though, we only see very few Ironborn (Asha, Baelor Blacktyde (a ward elsewhere), Theon (a ward elsewhere), Gylbert (who may be mad) and Roderick; so a very small minority) who go against the Stereotype and one of them, Asha, only does so partly as a last resort. Two of them act that way because they were raised outside the Islands. It is not as though the 'stereotype' is just something made up by other people to slander the Ironborn since we have Ironborn POV and they all act like the 'stereotype'...

Really, this is ridiculous. Gylbert wanted to phone home and send his people's to Jonestown and this to you is breaking the stereotype? Why are Theon or Asha not stereotypical? Public drownings and axe catching, what am I missing?

I don't know how many times I gotta stress that one out of seven is still one part, nor the amount of times in asoiaf it stresses that"men are men" which we see in Jon's Danys and Moonboys pov.

Roderick going against the stereotype is so fucking stupid, I'm sorry to say, he's Ironborn to the core, he worships the drowned god is interwoven with their politics, fights his family, and sent soldiers to his kings. But you say, he can read! They put Samwell in a straightjacket when he first learned his vowels, nowhere in the seven kingdoms are they known for their intellectualism.

What's the stereotype that their reality has is so bad? Barbarism, feudalism, violent? 

Welcome to Westeros 

6 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Wait, how exactly did the last kingsmoot go again? Can't recall the chapters. Did all boat owners take part or just the lords of the Iron Islands?

Ok so it looks like everyone who ran for office was aristocratic. Gyllbert lord of lonely light was outta his mind. Vote for crazy. Then was Erik who for some wild reason his age was called into question! (And we mock them lol) followed by Ashas vote for surrender and Vics vote for the north only to lose to Euros vote for command. 

But Aaron invites any to speak, I do think perhaps it'd be unwise for a non aristocrat to put in his name but that's more to do with the actuality of a smallfolk little influence.

In terms of the vote it seems like more then just property owners were allowed to vote and basically its up to anyone. Not the most solid fool proofed way of voting I have to say. NW vote with seashells or something, Vale Wildlings are small enough to vote by face but the Kingsmoot is by noise. Sorta like a concert. Wanna hear my new single or a throwback? And the crowd roars one way or another. Democracy. But I don't see any age or tbh gender restrictions here. (Although Asha does appear as the only girl I could spot) and certainly not one of wealth or station as it's all about the volume exhibited by your supporters and undecided voters

Just now, SaffronLady said:

Wait, how exactly did the last kingsmoot go again? Can't recall the chapters. Did all boat owners take part or just the lords of the Iron Islands?

I think it's a mix. And the least that's representative democracy based off wealth and property ownership... Which is still way fucking better then absolute monarchy 

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, this is a mess, I am not sure what your point is.

That your stereotyping was unjustified and throwing them under the bus for a Westerosi offense is nonsensical.

4 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Are you saying no systematic change is needed in the Iron Islands, that they should continue to kill and steal as they wish from other Kingdoms? 

Umm. Yea I mean it's fucked up there. But it is everywhere too. If we start at the top with Thenns, awful, freefolk, awful, NW, extra awful skinchangers, I like them but they certainly have a complex, Ironborn... Southron, awful. Free cities, awful (individually or together), slaverys bay, awful.

I do think systematic change is needed, but that's more with tearing down the military complexes that exist to lord over the populace and a complete redistribution of land and wealth and influence in the administration. Which again I'd say about everywhere. But mainly like the NW then KL then like idk, but Pyke is down the list as I respect their integration of cultures and their democratic elections 

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Again, its not individuals fault, but this is a culture that needs to be forgotten (wasn’t Balon’s father trying to change things? Can’t exactly remember). They need real systematic change ASAP

I just love it when we put on our holier than thou hats and start parroting Cersei. 

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

. Granted this sounds about right for someone from the Iron Islands, a culture that is …is just so horrible. I hate throwing a whole culture under the bus, but…

But why pay attention to reality when stereotyping is so much more pleasant? 

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

hey literally think the only way to have nice things is to kill someone for it,

Thats an extremely materialistic way of looking at life, there are nice things in this world that are not diamonds. 
To call back to Greyjoys first sign of prowess, Theon shooting wildlings, a paraplegic child felt like he owned half the continent and felt that ditching his bodyguards and riding the land sparkling the smallfolk and refugees was acceptable. He wanted to be a knight, he is from a warrior culture but felt that his heritage and wealth alone justify his trappings. Which the wildlings obviously disagreed with. This mindset is just totally antithesis to Ironborn thinking, which granted is abhorrent but so is all this feudal shit, but at the least this is practical and based on their medieval culture.

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

have a saying “we don’t sow” which essentially means we should steal everything from other people

This is a specific familial motto. Its similar to Targaryen's words of war, Lannisters of fright and Starks of ownership. It's just shit talking by the aristocracy and doesnt reflect on the smallfolk who make up the kingdom. (where they undoubtably have more freedom and independence then their greenland cousins. )

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

rape is completely normalized even more so then in other cultures in asoiaf

Its a crime, not normalized but punished. Where do you come up with this? Especially comparing to other Westerosi like king Robert who according to Renly literally raped every daughter who's roof he spent the night at

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

they have slaves despite pretending it is something else.

Whose children are able to captain a ship where they bow to no one. And once again, if we compare them to Westerosi slaves, like "Weasel" (Arya) and her companions in Harrenhal  in acok or the explicit serfdom, or kidnapping and lawful arrests as other synonyms along slavery go, in Darry that Lancel and Ami oversee. Much to Jaimes ambivalence.

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oh and I forgot, they elect literally the most horrible human being in Westeros BY CHOICE!!! (Euron).

Its not like in America (or a decent part of the fucking globe) we arent in danger of electing the most horrible human either.

15 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

37 minutes ago, sifth said:

He does a few good things like save Sansa, but he also helps keep a mad king like Joffrey in power.

By saving the city from Stannis who would have like, torched it
 

15 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

h yes, raping women, only completely honorable people don't do that, right? (I am being sarcastic).

They story of Tysha is extremely sad and left Tyrion with multiple scars. In Volantis he wanted to die, kinslaying and his murder of Shae snapped him and he begged for her to become a lord of Westeros, which is a pretty dark off coloring joke, but thats him. Is having violent sex with a drugged out prostitute rape? Idk, its bad tho, but its not like Gregor shit

20 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Oh and don't forget murdering people (He murdered a bard who wanted to sing about Shae off the top of my head).

Who pledged to expose him and his girlfriend which could have resulted in both of their deaths.

21 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He armed the mountain clans because Lysa Arryn imprisoned him which led to widespread death..of small folks, not Lysa Arryn.

Or to the rejuvenation of his mountain folk who are people as well. And yea middle ages warfare was harsh, but thats every character.

23 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

His murder of Shae in the books is far from strait forward (in the show, she attacks him, but in the book she begs him not to do it). 

Wrong place wrong time. And shes not exactly an innocent bystander anyway

23 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, though, his treatment of slaves in general, but especially slave prostitutes....is enough to make him extremely gray, in fact, I think in the fifth book he was entering a territory of dark gray. 

In book 5 hes borderline insane. The crossbow goes off like a machine gun, but he saves Aegon Penny and Jorah, with the latter two trying to kill him. Especially the saving Jorah part, he doesnt even know why he did it (Aegon he says for the scheme, but thats probably bullshit and Penny was just, he cant just leave her there for dead) but its because hes good folk who like many folk, has demons

26 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Final note, this is maybe less obvious, but something I mentioned to my partner. The Starks treat their servants and sworn men...with respect. As humans. The Lannisters (including Tyrion) don't. When Tyrion's two serving men die on the way the Vale of Arryn (I am rereading the first book), he literally could care less. These are men he at least spent months with on the way to the Wall and back. To me, this enters into my idea of "gray". Treating those around you with basic respect and caring if they live or die (treating their life with respect) is a basic thing people SHOULD be doing. 

He treated Bronn so well he contemplated fighting Gregor free of charge and then named his son after him, when Tyrions mountain folk were thrown away from KL he was disgusted by their treatment noting that these "wildlings" fought with their lives to save KL. He cares.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

After the BW, the Freys were always going to turn their coat and surrender, with or without Robb, but they had no incentive to pull that off till Robb gave them one.

Wait so which is it?

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

I dunno the many of the more martial freys(black walder and ryman).seemed genuinely to like robb ĺesp his frey squire. It was more the insult.

 

If walder doesnt reach out to roose then roose doesnt order ramsay to fuck up witnerfells retaking!  Theon is captured (probably still traded for moat catlin or deepwood) Bran and rickon can be reported.as alive but missing thus cats brainnfart of releasing jamie doesnt occur and annoy the karstarks further.

The also.still have the possibility of more robb miracle.wins,.for example.harrenthall is theirs and is monsterous for even the reach to surround!

Roose doesnt control Ramsay. I remember we talked about this before where I left mad quotes and a timeline showing Ramsay's schemes and plots were all his, but you kept disagreeing so Im not really trying to go through that again.

33 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Meanwhile, Joffrey executes Ned, which removes the strategic impetus of Robb’s thrust towards King’s Landing. Robb can’t back down, because Joff has escalated, but there is no longer any urgent need to march on KL

Although there is. By far the greatest political and personal blunder Robb did was allowing Sansa to remain in enemy hands and not utilized like a princess is supposed to

36 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

At this stage the scene is still set for a decisive Stark/Baratheon victory. If Stannis takes King’s Landing before Tywin gets there, then Tywin is stranded in the field and can be picked off, leaving Robb to come to some kind of a deal with Stannis or, if a deal can’t be done, at the very least can focus on maintaining his borders, mop up the remaining Lannister stragglers within the Riverlands, and (if necessary) retake the North.

Thats not a thing. Theres a stark victory and a Bartheon one, and a Greyjoy and Martell and Moonboy for all I know. With a Lannister victory however Robb maintained his borders and mopped up the Riverlands and then went to retake the North. Literally nothing has changed from the reality of asos.

40 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It's also worth noting that until this point the war from Robb’s perspective has been pretty much a straight fight between the Starks and Lannisters and they are not too unevenly matched, with the balance probably tipping over into Robb’s favour once the Riverlords are factored in. Joffrey has the Crownlands theoretically available to assist, but their forces have been denuded by Stannis and the remaining Crownlands lords seem to be focussing on protecting their own holdings rather than assembling a field army to join Tywin.

The Blackwater changes things completely. Stannis is effectively knocked out of the war, which frees up Tywin to launch an offensive war against the Riverlands using the resources of the Crownlands. The prospect of removing Joffrey as king is realistically ended. And worst of all, the Reach and Stormlands have now joined Tywin, and that will surely also act as a spur for the remaining neutrals (Dorne and the Vale) to seek terms with Tywin rather than continue to resist.

Surely? Because theres nothing but antagonism directed from Dorne and honestly soon to be the Vale. I agree that the Tyrell alliance pushed the capture of KL and killing of Joff like, back. Perhaps your right even to the point of unrealistic, but that Robb himself and his kingdoms are in danger because Mace has jumped into the ring isnt at thing.

46 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Rather than chasing Tywin around on reasonably even terms, Robb is now facing off against a massive alliance that outnumbers his own probably a couple of times over. The Riverlands are now essentially impossible to hold in the face of these forces. His only option is to retreat north and try to fortify Moat Cailin, which suddenly makes the Ironborn more than an annoyance, but rather an existential threat since unless he gets his skates on he’ll be trapped between them and Tywin

"essentially impossible to hold"
Like, Jaime through his superb negotiations and ability to predict enemy moves like Edmure's is how the Riverlands fell. And by fell I mean the commanders of fortresses with their fingers crossed and a dagger behind their back is acting like their bending the knee, while the actual land is overrun with outlaws. 
Nobody was able to pacify the castles of the Riverlands until Jaime arrived and that was with a dead Robb and the entire gentry in chains. In fact Edmure's plan was to spread his troops defending every inch and when Tywin and attacked him in force with Gregor at the van, Edmure bloodied his nose. 
And then of course the reality, unforeseen by everyone, but reality nonetheless is that Greyjoy will soon switch up their gameplan and leave the North to attack Tyrell.

58 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

If we take the counterfactual, though, where Stannis wins at the Blackwater, things look a lot better for Robb. If Stannis takes the city before Tywin arrives, he’ll mount the heads of Cersei, Tyrion and Joffrey on the walls and Tywin will be forced to either seek terms or try to locate Tommen and fight on in his name. But his new Reach allies will be unimpressed and may well just go home, or decide that Stannis (or even Robb!) looks a better bet after all, leaving Tywin completely stranded and able to be picked off at Robb’s leisure.

So I do think it’s fair to say that the Blackwater was the point at which the war became functionally unwinnable for Robb: it was a strategic defeat even if he wasn’t directly involved. Until that point there was still a path to something approximating victory. It obviously wasn’t the only thing that went wrong, but it was the decisive moment when the situation became essentially unrecoverable

Im not sure about the fate of Tyrion to be honest, but who cares really. Tyrell abandoned Stannis, and by abandoned I mean something else, with Renly dead Stannis graciously let his subjects pledge support but Tyrell ran instead. I cant see Stannis forgiving them so quickly if he takes KL in all power. Which goes the same for Robb. 
Its possible I suppose for Robb to give up his title but why? Robbs winning. (unless you count the L's) Cat told Stannis that Robb wasnt bending back then and although he promised to return the body of Sansa as he correctly summarized Cersei wouldnt let her live, the reality is Sansa was able to manipulate warriors like Sandor so tbh I think shed live. Where Stannis would keep her in chains or perhaps marry her to Giantslayer or Onionson. The path of the young wolf was always a tough one but there is a path to victory. Fuck em up. The Young Wolf was something of a military prodigy who remained undefeated on the field. Eventually with continued victories over Stannis, or Tywin theyd capitulate and strike terms. Probably by screwing over Sansa.  

After Theon and Ramsay fulfilled their escapades the days of Frey loyalty ended. We see the Freys attempting to persuade Roose into treason as soon as Robb took his first loss.

That the BW is responsible for Robbs defeat is so some real Mace Tyrell thinking, the BW didn't even destroy Stannis, but with Robb it was hardly an issue

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Sorry, show.

Yea idk lol. I was really into it like the first couple years but by like s3 or 4 I was hardly paying attention. I was dating a girl who liked the show (well not really lol, but we watched it) but since we broke up Im kinda over it.

So I did see the majority of episodes but I only rewatched the first few seasons before it went so downhill. As opposed to like Succession which I've known seen three times. (So, I think Robert was a good actor that sad useless piece of shit that I know as Robert Baratheon was played phenomenally by Mark Addy and that image of Robert always kinda stuck. But I just heard that they originally wanted to give the job to Mr. Logan Roy himself, Brian Cox. What a wild show I think that would have been, instead of sad and useless Robert it would have been angry and scary and borderline insane Robert which is also explored in the book. So I do wonder if the casting would have changed the trajectory of the story or, if no because Roberts not long for screen time anyway.)

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Book Tyrion is certainly a fine character, much like Shakespeare’s Richard III.

I read it like 15 years ago, I hardly remember it. Same with the merchant of Venice. But I remember hearing they're grey characters but reading about such dark and awful characters instead. But like I said maybe I don't remember what I'm talking about plus I read em as a teenager so there's probably plenty of stuff I didn't pick up on 

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Had he been portrayed as a monster, that would have been fine.

But, supposedly sympathetic characters treated him (and he treated himself) as wise, virtuous, enlightened, when his advice and actions were so often stupid, cruel, and self-defeating.

We're talking about the book?

I agree, he can be stupid cruel and self defeating while also remaining wise virtuous and enlightened. Tyrion is imo one of the greatest works of fiction largely due to his complexity, so that's why I got a kinda tight when you compared him to like, king nazi

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In the show, arming the hill tribes, to attack Vale peasants.  Serving as acting Prime Minister, in a murderous government.  Killing men with wildfire, in order to keep a psychopathic usurper in power.  Keeping Sansa prisoner.  Murdering his father and Shae.  Striking a bargain to reinstate slavery in Meereen for six years.  Advocating starving the people of Kings Landing to death.  Trying to organise Cersei’s escape at the end.  Persuading Jon to murder Daenerys, before kicking Jon to the kerb, and worming his way back into his old position.  Giving military advice to Daenerys that was so bad as to be tantamount to sabotage.

The guy was a monster.

I gotta start reading every word, I thought you meant book. 

19 hours ago, sifth said:

often makes people forget that he's basically the main villain of the second novel.

Basically?

How do your come up with this shit? He like saves everyone in acok, Sansa personally a few times.

18 hours ago, sifth said:

He's much more interesting as a grey character, in the novels.

Tyrion is grey if you compare him to like a blank sheet of printing paper, or Sir Lancelot.

44 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My own view of show Tyrion is that he was very much an Albert Speer figure, someone who did terrible things, but persuaded himself and others that he was a good person.

Holy shit man, wtf! What terrible things did Tyrion do that your comparing him to Speer?

If anything he's more like Rommel. Something of a genius commander and honestly a good person fighting for an evil force.  Speer however was a monster through and through 

2 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Henrietta Maria was full-on Catholic, yes, and this was a major political problem for the king because she not only refused to convert but even to shut up about actively converting everyone else.

Lol word.

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

From what I gather, the Baltimores were Catholic too, which is presumably why they were given a peerage in Ireland rather than England.

Oh cool. Interesting

9 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

In my head canon medieval world people are not woke

Only when they close their eyes.

Quote

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

I'm reminded of a Shiv Roy Succession quote.

"A woman. That, thats a minus"

"Well of course it's a fucking minus, I didn't make the world"

"You make a small part of it "

27 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I don't think anyone these days seriously believes Charles I was a Catholic, crypto- or otherwise. He appears to have been exactly what he presented himself as: a determined Protestant, but in the High Church Anglican tradition, which was viewed as uncomfortably close to Catholicism in its trappings by the increasingly radicalising Puritan community during his reign.

It was Charles II over whom there's the big question-mark. But he was raised by a Catholic mother, spent an awful lot of time in France in his youth, and was largely dependent for quite a while on both the public and private support of Louis XIV, so his Catholic sympathies are pretty undertsandable.

Yea that's what I figure too. The wife was a bit more on the popery side though, right? I'm not sure about Lord Baltimore and his son but if they were lords post Elizabeth Id bet they were as Catholic as the king. Which is, not, but still something of popery. Which yea, can totally be the French youth lifestyle and not the blood of Christ or whatever.

Like I really don't think that Maryland was actually Catholic but more Anglican with Latin and red hats. But I think the caviler ,French 2nd estate, outlook of like riding your warhorse over the diggers or whatever, was pretty predominant 

On 7/23/2023 at 1:42 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, Puritan Massachusetts was eventually overrun with Irish Catholics, so how’s that for irony?

On 7/23/2023 at 1:42 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maryland also had a large Catholic population from the beginning.

I find early Maryland really interesting. I wish I knew more. All of the colonial world really, but especially the American English Civil War, and also the American Glorious revolution. I just feel like these were such shattering events in GB so it's weird there's so little emphasis on what happens across the pond in America.

But, basically, Maryland was named after Charles I's wife. Who was Catholic? But her husband "was not?". Who know with these Stuarts. But in all Caviler fashion, the Stuarts tried to bring Maryland back to 1066. You know the pattern on the sleeves of the Baltimore Ravens, that was the sigil for Lord Baltimore, on some House Lannister shit. American colonies are really fascinating, the origin story on some is so specific and different then it's sisters. Anyway, while New England was for puritans and VA was for conquest and NY was for money, it really seems like Maryland was for A Game of Thrones. But alas, when you play there is no middle ground. Charles and his Cavilers lost their heads and Maryland too held battles of the English Civil War where the Puritans, like in Ireland, went in. Probably not that bad, but bad. 

I'm pretty sure that by the time the continental Congress was freaking out over Quebec, 150 years later, there weren't that many Catholics in Maryland anymore.

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The miracle was hatching the dragons.

It's all miraculous 

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

She can probably use Drogon to coerce them but I don't think they will like it. I really doubt the tens of thousands of Dothraki that Daenerys brings over are going to be chill.

Dothraki culture is really just riding culture, Drogo looses his men when he falls of his horse. So do I think there will be some Dothraki who will be playing their game of horse thrones, of course, and they're gonna be staring at Dany looking for the first sign of weakness like Walder. Tens of thousands are large numbers, chances of a criminal element or a frustrated soldier are likely, agreed. But on the gist of it, generally, they're hers.

She can outride anyone on Drogon, that in itself demands respect, it is coercing them but so did Robert against the loyalists by his ferociousness with the warhammer. The dude at the Fingers told Ned that Robert looked like a king. 

And although the city life left Dany sunburnt and Drogons fire burnt her hair thusly admitting defeat in Meereen and losing her bells, and of course is not a dude, there is no one who looks more like Khal then Dany.

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The more people there are, the harder it is to control them all.

She'll have captains and stuff. These guys are no different then the sellswords she commands, they're just folk. 

Like, was it a fault on Renly for gathering so many men?

21 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

 And there is a food shortage coming, which encourages stealing other people's food.

Or they'll eat their horses, or trade with the free cities, or maybe the wall.

Dany is building herself an empire with established trade links, if anything a Dany run Westeros will probably see more food given to the populace instead of what the five kings left them with. Despite Danys standing army

17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yeah but they only have ~100 Dothraki

And they're all chill. In fact they campaign against slavery and strike the chains off of slaves.

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

that witnessed a miracle...

The dragons are the miracles, and she still has em

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

And if they were burning down septs, killing the clergy, and trampling the local religion, as the Great Heathen Army did, then that would be a huge issue.

But, I'm not expecting that.

I think they all do that. Like the Grande Armee or whomever. Westeros itself is witnessing the septs burnt and the clergy and locals trampled and that's done by the kings and lords of Westeros.

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I expect the Dothraki will fully act like the Dothraki and it will cause friction with the local people.

I think theyll act like Dothraki too, they'll ride the terrain and tell stories of the constellations in the stars.

That the Dothraki are like wights and incapable of not atrocity is clearly false as the khallissr that khallissi commands is not out there savaging Slavers Bay, but are just hanging out.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't have books at the moment so the quotes aren't as long as they should be but I think these are the ones:

Cersei I, ADwD

Epilogue, ADwD

Nah, that's perfect. Thank you for pulling those up.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the idea was it was unusual to say 'sons' plural, since Willas would be unlikely to be involved with his injury. Also, Mace was not really acting like Loras had just burned to death, Loras is supposedly his favourite son yet he doesn't seem sad or angry, and no one mentions Loras being injured in those chapters.

Very suspect, I agree 

26 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

More in the sense that even now, 250 years later the principal high-level legal debates about how to resolve current conflicts revolve around trying to figure out what these fuckers intended way back then.

Yea it's not great. I do think generally or maybe minimally specifically these fuckers had some groovy ideas, but definitely other stuff notably the 3/5 compromise was/is looked at as divinely inspired which is just nuts and still fairly puritan so maybe they're actually on to something lol.

24 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

To be clear, the original aspect, the greatest of the Intolerable Acts and the only one that prompted several FF’s to complain to George III directly (and write pamphlets about, a la Franklin, Adams, etc.) was the Quebec Act, specifically the toleration of Catholicism in the British Empire. I can’t explain the reasoning, but the conclusion was literally ‘allowing Catholics to be Catholic = tyranny’, not exaggerating. Heroes rarely survive scrutiny. 

Oh yea! They were a stone thrown away from being Puritans, in fact Sam Adams actually was and got really upset about Freedom of Religion. And by freedom of religion I think they meant at the time it was freedom to worship your branch of Protestantism within your specific state boundaries. (a puritan in SC or a Quaker in MA I think would get the side eyed glance even post 1787)
Most of em were slavers, I dont think that any of the founding fathers can be called heroes really. Even the ones against slavery, which sometimes were slavers, carry serious baggage. Its a strange word anyway, hero. Like Batman? He can be an asshole too 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Loras I can see being okay, because we only hear about it through Cersei's POV and it seems probable someone is just telling her what she wants to hear,

I agree. 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

plus the Septas act suspicious when Loras is mentioned and Mace seems to refer to Loras as though he isn't really injured

I don't remember those. Citations please?

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Quentyn on the other hand is fried in his own POV chapter,

Yea exactly 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

we see a burned body and his friends act like he's dead too

Right, but that doesn't really mean anything. We saw Bran and Rickons body, and we heard about Davos' head.

If the friends were fooled too then so it is and if they were in on it then they acted accordingly.

I just didn't get the arc at first. But now I realize that he succeeded on his mission to ally Dorne with Dany, although it involved him dying and warring on Pentos for the benefit of prince sellsword.

But Loras I still don't get. Why kill him off, or why make him bedridden like his brother? I do think though that Tyrell taking Dragonstone and stopping the mining which is essential for the NW would be a good story. So too is having the fleet useless against Greyjoy