Attitude

14 minutes ago, RadSam said:

Isn't there a 'Rant and Rave' thread? Or something similar? Some of these posts are longer than I am tall (I'm not very tall, but that's not the point.). Maybe pop on over there with those long, ranty posts.

And also, enough with the constant whinging and complaining. If the show is that horrible that you have to complain about every little aspect of it, do us all a favour and just stop watching it.

Good point. You're allowed to create one if you want to, I think it's a good idea! 

13 hours ago, Rockroi said:

(1)Ned’s Death Would Have Been Worse:

Now… IMAGINE… how you felt when you read/saw Jon Snow dying.  And how UTTERLY PREDICTABLE IT WAS THAT HE WOULD COME BACK!  And how void of emotion it was; lame; silly; … HOW UTTERLY PEDESTRIAN IT WAS!  How it was almost something (GASP) Network TV would do! 

(2)So Now It Ends: 

Because the ToJ was a scene that GRRM wrote; not the show runners.  The Show runners are GREAT at creating and recreating stuff that GRRM already created.  They do a great job at putting on screen what he already put on paper.  The show –runners suck-out-loud at doing anything on their own that requires them having to create or interpret.  They are bad at it. 

Let me start by stating that I agree that there are several plot holes in the show, many scenes are not necesarry and other (possible awesome) scenes are left out. However, I understand some of these things, but I'll get back to that part later.

I picked out two parts because I feel like you didn't look at those parts objectively.

(1) 

I agree that there was a lot less emotion in it, because they didn't recreate the scene properly, but bashing the missing of emotion because his 'resurrection' was so obvious isn't in place if you ask me. 

(2)
With this part of your post you're contradicting yourself. You pretty much hate everything the writers thought out themselves. I guess that's because you expect perfect recreated book scene's. Now they decide to take the ToJ and recreate it, and you suddenly say the writers that they are only able to copy stuff GRRM already wrote. Can't you see those statements contradict eachother? What do you expect from them? You don't want them to change the story (let's not get into the reason why they change it for now), but you also hate it when they copy GRRM's work. What should they do? Stop the show entirely?

I understand that many bookreaders have certain 'hate' for the show, because they 'screwed' certain parts of the story. However, those decisions were made a couple of seasons back, and they can't be introduced anymore.

Just accept that the show changes from the books, and accept plotholes. For your comments about plotholes in the show are dozens of readers that see several plotholes in the books too. Just enjoy the show, and if you don't enjoy it anymore, don't watch it. 

27 minutes ago, MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat said:

Yeah who knows what the writers would say. But I think even the fact that she had a brutal biting (literally) brawl with the "man" with Arya... that alone should have been mentioned, but as we agree, the writers didn't want to deal with the obvious follow up reaction from Sansa. To them, the point of the scene is to let Sansa know that Arya is alive, and that's it.

And that, of course, is the most important point of this scene.

Maybe they listened to some viewers complaining about the Sansa scene from S05 and decided that there has been enough bad situations for her. Because it is very out of character for Brienne. 

7 hours ago, MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat said:

Brienne only said "a man," which given the significance of The Hound, and specifically the significance to Sansa, this is a huge and nonsensical omission. Brienne has no idea about Sansa's relationship with The Hound, so its nonsensical from a character POV for her to omit that when it being The Hound would be significant information to just about anyone. She fought the guy as well, in very brutal fashion. The fact that she doesn't namedrop is only explainable by the meta-narrative factor that the writers don't want to have to deal with Sansa's natural reaction to that information within the context of that scene. They want her to know Arya is alive, but not that she was with The Hound, so they contrive to have Brienne only say half of the story.

Yeah I guess you're right. In my mind Brienne didn't knew the Hound. In some way I was right, because I checked the scene and she doesn't, but podrick does and tells her (well actually he says 'sander clegane, the hound' in general, not specific to Brienne). 

So yeah, she knew and she should've said it. And I think you're right that they tried to avoid Sansa's reaction about it. But I guess if you would asked the writers, they would probably explain it as Brienne protecting Sansa from the truth. 

14 hours ago, marsyao said:

 Many of the 'men of the nights watch' BEFORE THEY JOIN THE WATCH were thiefs, rapers, etc if you do not know the difference, I do not waste my time, I really do now want to waste my time to argue with you

 

A hint, NW is very much respected by people in Westero from high Lords to smallfolks,

And you really believe that after some training and a couple of words they suddenly are all men with great honor who would never betray the NW. 

The NW was in decline before Jon joined and it went worse and worse. They killed two LC's in a short period of time (book and show!), and you say they are all very loyal?

I'm sorry to see that you don't want to 'waste your time', but I got a feeling you just realised that you're dead wrong about this. Maybe use the saved time to read the books and watch the show, because it seems like you only read summary's.

10 hours ago, MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat said:

To be fair, this episode continues the show (especially this season, and likely increasingly going forward) tradition of things happening with little regard to proper character motivation or logic. Brienne doesn't mention the Hound; Davos asks about resurrection; Theon wants to go "home"; we can understand WHY this is happening from a meta and narrative point of view, but not at all within the universe and character cohesive manner. This is the inevitable result of there no longer being a book to adapt for most of this, and just the fact that D&D have already made themselves accustomed to taking any and all shortcuts to get characters from A to B.

I can live with it just enough, but they best not push me too far. But yes, otherwise I thought this episode was great and showed promise for the Season going forward. Things are moving very fast. I like that, even while it comes with the poor consequences of what I detailed above.

You're right, but I get it. They need to move forward now, so they skip some details and make the decisions without any clear character development. They should've used S05 to create more character development.

Oh, pretty sure Brienne mentioned The hound, just not by name. 

9 hours ago, marsyao said:

What are you talking about, do you remember how NW brothers behaved in old bear's expedition  and their heroic defense of the war agains much worse Odd? and ... ok, whatever, I give up, I can stand this nonsense anymore

Lol, that expedition ended with them killing Craster (well I can't say that I hated that, but I agree with Mormont, they needed people like him for their expeditions) and their LC. I mean, yeah they follow their LC around, but when things get real they desert as soon as they see the chance. Even loyal bannerman in both the show and the books have deserted their Lords. For many, the only reason to listen to their LC is their fear of death. Once that is gone, they don't follow orders anymore. 

39 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Me too. Really made Euron look like a badass. He never grabbed the rail once. 

Agreed, however they should've done this scene in S03 or S04. 

30 minutes ago, marsyao said:

Outrage enough to side with wilding agains NW brothers? Did wildling barg into avenge Jon's "death" make killing him justified? Of course, if fan boys and fan girls would not think about that

Think about it this way:

Many of the 'men of the nights watch' were thiefs, rapers, etc. They chose to join the nights watch, because they valued their lives. 

Some of them didn't support Thorne, but were afraid to be killed (just like Jon) if they decided to speak againt Thorne.

However, the moment Wun Wun breached that gate, those men knew the odds were with the wildlings, so they (still valuing their lives) sided with them to fight a common enemy (Thorne & co.)

I don't think that's odd at all. 

25 minutes ago, RadSam said:

I don't remember the GNC being about Rickard. It's been a long time since I've read it all the way through though.

Edited my post, I was mixing some things up.. 

23 minutes ago, RadSam said:

The Northern lords working together (in secret) to overthrow the Boltons (and the Freys I believe) and have a Stark ruling the North again.

There is a lot more to do with Robb's will legitimizing Jon, but it has never been mentioned or hinted at in the show, so I won't get into that.

I actually knew this much and I know the theory about the 'legitimacy letter'. 

I just didn't expect them to play some sort of 'spy.' I've also seen some people expected them to turn on the Boltons during the wildlings/boltons fight. However, that doesn't make sense IMO. I mean, if you really want to screw the Boltons, just kill Ramsay right now.

However, I don't buy the Manderly story. The Karstarks joining the Boltons seems possible, but I don't understand the Manderly's. But maybe that's because of the books.

But wasn't the GNC theory about Rickard Stark? 

Edit: Checked it myself, but that was the 'southern ambitions theory'

I really don't understand the hate. If you hate the show, stop watching. If you hate an episode, don't just say it sucks, but at least bring some arguments why the show sucks.

My opinion:

Great episode! I didn't hate the first episode, because a show requires some time to build up. They skipped some parts in the previous episode, but this episode really picked up the pace! 

Yeah, some things could've been better played out, but I really think they want to wrap this show up in 7 seasons. So I guess there will be less talking, less (irrelevant) screen time for some people and more action. Not bad for the show IMO, but I guess if we look back when it's done, they could've done better (season 5 could've missed some scene's which could've been filled with some season 6 stuff). 

Back to this episode, some short remarks:

Bran: 
Great stuff on a young Ned (and benjen), with some lyanna stuff. Really excited to see more stuff about that (ToJ in episode 3 according to the teaser, I guess we will know why Jon has to live!) ALso, Bran isn't going to stay in the cave! Awesome!

Davos/Thorne/Olly/Ed/Wildings/Wun Wun:
Loved this scene, it was shown in the trailers and teasers already, and Ed showing up with the wildlings wasn't a suprise, but I loved it none the less. Funny to see that only Thorne and Olly were picked up (or were there others?)

Kinglanding stuff:
Tommen/Cersei scene was nice. I love the question about the 'shroud' (yes it was gold). Jaime + HS is going to become fun too. 

Arya:
Pot doesn't move forward as fast as I expected. I guess there will be (a lot) more screentime for her. Well, that's never a bad thing IMO!

Boltons:
I actually didn't expect Roose to be killed by Ramsay already. The Walda scene was a reminder how big of an A-hole Ramsay is.

Sansa:
Hurray she knows Arya is alive! Sansa letting Theon go isn't very smart IMO, but I guess it was required for the plot/Theon's story arc. 

Jon:
As expected (I guessed episode #3), he lives! Not a great scene, but they did what was required! 

3 minutes ago, RadSam said:

Maybe part of the GNC? The same way the Manderlys were shown to be supporting the Boltons.

And how would that play out? I'm not familiar with the details of the GNC

1 hour ago, flare said:

I am only going to comment on this part because I don't even bother to address everything unbelieable farfetched anymore since people stay with their opinion anyway even though I don't see why. /snip

You're putting way to much thought in this. Yes it's odd that they find the circle & the ring, but what would you rather have? Scenes of Jorah & Daario not finding anything? They come back to Tyrion & co and just say: Yeah we've been away for days and found nothing.. Oh btw the ships are gone, a what a bummer.

Don't freaking overthink every single thing. Just assume they saw the dragon fly in a general direction and followed that. With some help/luck they found the dragon.

Oh, and a small remark: Comparing it to planes is stupid. Planes make huge turns (because of taking off & landing) and follow fly routes, where the dragon most likely did fly straight to his lair. 

As far as I can see, it's mainly the people that give low ratings (1 to 3) that also give a clear explanation why they don't like it.

And pretty much all of them can be translated to: I still hate that D&D removed certain parts of the book (and all the things they had to change to make it fit again). 

I can't say you don't have the right to complain about it. But I think you should accept the fact that this is the show and your constant crying (about 'were are the greyjoys', 'Sansa didn't get raped in the books', 'Why is the Jamie plot different', 'Where is Arriene and why is the Dorne plot different') won't change anything. Just accept the show as it is and forget about the books (I know, it's hard). Yes there are plotholes, but there are plotholes in GRRMs work too, if you just dig deep enough you will always find things that won't matter. But that doesn't make it a terrible show. 

I'm just sick and tired that people rate an episode basicly on arguments like 'Doran & Hotah got killed off so easy, but they are so badass in the books'. 

2 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Rewatching the scene, it's quite clear that we're supposed to take notice of the bloodstain. We get a shot of it, then a shot of Davos staring at it, then a closeup of Davos staring at it. So, whether or not the bloodstain is supposed to resemble a dragon or anything else, D&D wanted us to notice it for some reason. I doubt it's as mundane as, gee that's a lot of blood. That said, I'm curious if there is any direct callback to it planned.

If that bloodstain is the outline of a dragon, then I suppose it could be interpreted as, blood of the dragon. And, obviously, it is, or would be, an RLJ hint.

Does anyone has a screenshot of that scene? 

Agreed. I came to terms with the books and the show being separate early this season. It's helped me enjoy the show so much more.

Exactly. I understand that people hate the fact that the stories don't match up, but they don't realize that it was impossible to do so. Putting a 1000 page book in a 10 hour show in a year is really hard. So IMO people should accept the flaws and the differentation from the books.

It would funny if Winds comes out before next season and reveals that Jon returns after all the talk from Kit and D&D that Jon was gone.

If tWoW will come out before S06 (I hope and think so), and it reveals that Jon survived, he can still be killed of in the Show.

Well, Jon Snow "death" troubles me a bit, since the rest of characters besides Daenerys neverending quest to Westeros and Tyrion ( at times ) are not interesting for me at all .Bran will be stuck in a tree for all his life, I dont see Arya's journey ending well either, and the Lannisters are pretty much defeated. The Martells are a caricature, and so are the Tyrells. And I wont even start with Sansa's storyline.

We'll see if that interview is really true , if it is , they will have to come up with something really good to make people watch this show. ( they didnt even included Faegon or LS, no Manderly? )

I think I'll root for the white walkers now.

Who knows.. maybe GRRM told them that the WW will eventually conquer earth. The game of thrones is just a filler and Dany staying in Mereen was good for her. In tWoW the WW will conquer entire Westeros because Melisandre was too stupid to see Jon Snow was AAR. But because the NW stabbed him to death, he now is death and their only chance against the WW is gone. Once Westeros is entirely dead Dany will try to conquer it from the WW again. When she sees her cause is lost because she can't win she will fly on Drogon into the sun and into her death. End of story.

Just a question to be clear; the deaths we've 'seen' in this episode are:

Stannis (off screen)

Selyse (hanged herself)

Myrcella (poisoned by Ellaria)
Jon Snow (Stabbed by his brothers)

If I look at the game of thrones page, all of these are confirmed...

Not exactly. Olenna basically admitted as much to Margaery, after the Purple Wedding.

Not as batshit crazy as he is in the books. Yeah before Theon was arrogant and he took initiative. Yeah, he is humble and submissive now (and to scared of Ramsay to trust anyone), and yeah we see that. But the fact that his mind is totally fucked up wasn't that clear up until now. He isn't just scared of Ramsay. He actually thinks he is Reek, and not Theon.

I don't think Marsh expressed an opinion of Jon being LC until he had actually become LC. He wasn't running candidate for most of the election. Sam was the guy that quietly suggested him to Denys Mallister behind the scenes, then to Cottor Pyke. Then the final votes were counted as having a Jon majority. By Sam.

Never said that he did, but he didn't vote for Jon, so that doesn't make him a supporter. If you vote for someone else, on some level, you are 'against' other candidates becoming LC. That was what I meant..

Allister planning the stabbing makes sense. Granted its just speculation. There is a good theory floating around that Allister is responsible for the Ceaser moment in the books as well. That Bowen and co have been communicating with Allister who is supposed to be MIA, and the go threw with the stabbing at his command. So Alister can reappear after Jon passes to hopefully claim the LC spot.

Sounds reasonable. I always felt that it didn't really fit the picture that Bowen Marsh orchestrated the assassination... So Bowen Marsh commanding him/them makes sense.

Ps. Got a link about the theory?

But its personal for him. They killed his parents and whole village. He just met Jon a few months ago. Its the only thing that makes sense to me any way. They keep focusing on him in these NW shots. Jon keeps looking to him hoping to get some sort of approval etc...

He is totally going to stab Jon. I just hope he isn't the only one. It would seem more emotional if it was like the books were 3/4 guys are doing it. Not just some 12 year old kid running Jon threw cause mad.

I'm not sure that I will, but I won't be suprised. And yes, I know about Ygritte + some Thenns iirc killing his mothers and father. So yeah, he could stab Jon. But probably not the first stab. He will be the one who gives him the last stab.

Alliser Thorne seems to be Jon's main opposition, and one of the few notable characters along with Olly in the NW. He seems to be taking Bowen Marsh role of being there and complaining about whatever Jon does. I would be extremely surprised if he isn't the ringleader who starts the stabbing Jon Snow. If not him, who? Now Olie might also do it but as you say it will be weak if it is just him.

Pretty sure that Bowen Marsh was against Jon being LC and against Jon allowing the wildlings to join their side too. So he could still fulfill that role. Alliser is (in the books) sent of to a ranging mission (he is 1^st ranger) behind the wall. (in the books he is to afraid to disobey Jon, since Janos was beheaded by Jon). But they could switch them. Bowen marsh didn't have a big role in the show anyway, most viewers barely know him. Alliser however has quite some screen time, so I could see it happen that he will be the one setting up the attack..

So is Olly going to stab Jon? Trying to figure out why they keep doing these odd lingering shots on him.

Sounds plausible. He was against Jon when he decided to let the wildlings join them (right?). But on the other hand, he is like Jon; his steward who is in training to become LC.

Anyone else think Thorne won't be involved with the whole stabbing scenario? I think even though the show are showing him oppose Jons views he's not going to dishonour himself and kill the Lord Commander.

First off all, that's a spoiler.

Second; We ain't sure that it will happen (but it's quite likely)

Third; he wasn't involved in the books either.

Fourth; who says that

Jon is dead in the books?!

Even GRRM hinted that he probably isn't

To be fair, they actually spent a great amount of screen time showing Reek's progression. And Alfie Allen's portrayal of Reek is the best I can ask for.

Yeah, I wished they showed less progresson on his torturing and more on his mentally disfigurement. His physical abuse was just a way to break him. We only hear say Ramsay say that he ‘broke Theon’, but this was the first episode where he showed the fact that his mind is rather f*cked up.

Oh, and this isn’t about his acting, because I agree that we probably couldn’t expect anything better. But that doesn’t change the fact that I miss it (Just a minor, acceptable flaw though) And yes, I understand that this is very hard to show. (The main problem imo with tv shows in general is that showing ‘thoughts’ is almost impossible.)

So I saw the episode yesterday and I wanted to share my opinion:

- Jon goes to the wildlings.

Some forshadowing by Alliser thorne of the upcoming (attempted) assassination on Jon.

- I didn’t read the dunk & egg novels (shame on me) yet, but what was that Aemon part about him shouting out egg, egg!? I don’t think many viewers understood anything of that. (They killed him of way to easy btw! Such a shame). I mean maybe he saw resemblance, but most people don’t know ‘egg.’ A little treat for the dedicated readers?!

- Which brings me to Sam. Aemon said he should go south (Oldtown?!)and take Gilly and the baby. In the books his reason to do so was (partly) because he had a kings child, but that switch didn’t happen here (right?!) So him getting beat up is the motivation for Sam to make the oldtown move?!

- Yeah, Ghost is back. Hopefully we will see other direwolves too?!

- Yeah some stannis stuff. Doesn’t really get me on the show tbh. And freaking sacrificing Shireen? Wtf is happening in this storyline?!

- Which brings me to that Sansa/Theon part! I hate it but I have to say that this was the first time they finally showed how freaking scarred Theon is. Not physically but mentally. In the books I always loved the parts where he was discussing with himself/thinking about himself and who he was. I think it was portrayed quite well in the books and I missed it in the show. Finally a little madness was shown to the viewer. Oh yeah, and Sansa got some stab object (couldn’t see well what it was, but it felt like it)

- Some Tyrell/LF scheming. Yeah, that had to come. First time we hear anyone admitting the murder on Joffrey didn’t we?! (Can’t recall that we ever heard anyone say it out loud in the books, only LF pretty much telling it us, just not literally..)

- Dorne felt really rushed on the Jamie/Myrcella part, and the Bronn part was so freaking useless IMO. Skip that bullcrap if you’re short on time, or just kill him off.

- Tyrion and Dany meet in the show, so Varys’ plan did work out, in a way. I wonder were Jorah will end up. (Drogon food?)

- Glad they finally took Cersei and put her in a cell. I guess they will skip her becoming crazy (or do it in 1 episode), but then again they skipped that with Theon (Reek) too. But her walking away from Margeary with a big smile on her face showed us a little of the crazy Cersei we all love. And herself being thrown in jail later on because of Lancels info was priceless of course. Even though, this also was rushed (I totally forgot they were banging before, were in the books it was still obvious for me.