The Wondering Wolf

On 4/16/2024 at 4:02 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

It would be pretty safe to assume he knew Aegon was married. They both fought in the alliance against Volantis during the century of blood. He’d be relatively foolish not to keep tabs on an erstwhile ally who has the only three dragons left in the world. After all he did “know” that Orys was a targ bastard.

While I also think Argilac knew about Aegon's marriages, I don't think they fought against Volantis at the same time. Argilac joined the alliance twenty years before the battle against the Gardener king, which in turn took place before the Conquest. Depending on the precise date of the Battle of Summerfield, Aegon would have been a young boy or not even born when Argilac was in Essos.

@Ran

There have been some uncertainties regarding (the) Wyl of Wyl. F&B has him without definite article, indicating his given name is Wyl (like Wylla of Wyl), while the Worldbook calls him the Wyl of Wyl, similar to the Stark of Winterfell. So if both are correct, he would be Wyl Wyl, Lord of Wyl, called the Wyl of Wyl, right?

5 hours ago, Oneiros Drakontos said:

because Asabhad doesn't seem to be near the main roads of the Bones

Well, at least it's closer to the roads of the Bones than to the Mountains of the Morn.  But there is something weird about this road between Asabhad and Qarth, indeed. The text says that the Bones extend to the Jade Sea, so this road would at least lead through the foothills of the Bones, but it is totally ignored when the text discusses the three roads leading through the mountains. I have no idea why anyone would use the Sand Road or even the Stone Road if it was possible to pass the mountains through its foothills close to the sea. In my opinion someone should ask GRRM if this road actually exists (it wouldn't be the only error with the maps). A road which connects Asabhad and Bayasabhad would make much more sense to me.

9 minutes ago, Oneiros Drakontos said:

Actually, the page doesn't talk of "crossing" mountains, it says "Asabhad is where many caravans begin their journey to the Mountains of the Morn". I don't think it's an error, they are caravans that pass through Further East.

The app says:

[...] the starting point for many caravans seeking to cross the Mountains of the Morn.

I think most of the entries in the app for places in the Further East are based on cut pieces from the Worldbook and show the Westerosi view on these areas. So I find it strange that the Westerosi know that many caravans cross the Mountains of the Morn while in the same time they are not even sure that there are any lands beyond the mountains.

@Ran

The wiki says that Asabhad is a starting point for caravans that want to cross the Mountains of the Morn. This is based on the entry in the app, but looking at the map, the Bone Mountains would make more sense. Is this an error?

4 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Is this indicating that the Farwynds of the Lonely Light are the founding branch of the family?

Aeron knew some Farwynds, a queer folk who held lands on the westernmost shores of Great Wyk and the scattered isles beyond, rocks so small that most could support but a single household. Of those, the Lonely Light was the most distant, eight days’ sail to the northwest amongst rookeries of seals and sea lions and the boundless grey oceans. The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest.

To me, this doesn't sound like the Farwynds of the Lonely Light were the founding branch, but I guess there could be ways to explain why there are so many Farwynds closer to the main isles now who seem much more important than the Lonely Light Farwynds. Anyways, moving the page as you proposed may be more accurate.

The article about the Stone Road says that it originates in Vaes Dothrak and runs from Adakhakileki and Vaes Jini to Samyriana. Looking at the map, the wording does not make much sense, and I even think it is wrong because the Stone Road goes from Vaes Dothrak to Vaes Jini and then to Samyriana. While there is another road, connecting Adakhakileki with Vaes Jini, this might not be a part of the Stone Road. 

Regarding this other road, it has a slightly different course on varoius maps from TLOIAF. The maps of the East and Central Essos show that starting in Adakhakileki, it does not lead directly to Vaes Jini, but meets with the Stone Road a bit futher to the south. The map of the Dothraki Sea shows that it leads directly to Vaes Jini from southwest (while the Stone Road leaves the city in the south). The map of the Known World has the unnamed road and the Stone Road meet at the southern walls of Vaes Jini. Not sure what to make of it. Depending on the correct version, the road which runs west from Vaes Jini to Vaes Mejhan and Meereen could be identified as Silk Road.

Elio has said multiple times that the date in brackets (114 BC) refers to Aenar leaving Valyria, so the Doom took place in 102 BC. The wiki had it wrong once and the 1436 date seems to be a leftover from that.

4 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Darkstar, you mean?

That is interesting, although I'm not sure where the information about Maegor's hair has come from. I've googled and another wiki has shown up, but it doesn't cite any sources and appears to be fanfic. Maybe there's a SSM that hasn't been linked to the wiki, though.

It's artistic licence for sure.

23 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Taurus is a likely discussion point there

Scholz has cornered himself there, he will never ever send Taurus to Ukraine. Just today another motion of the biggest opposition party CDU to send Taurus was rejected. 

20 minutes ago, Bironic said:

 

Has that been proven to be real? 
If yes it confirms my view that Macron especially but also the other western leaders (Biden, Scholz, Johnson, Zelensky, etc.) did everything they could to persuade Putin to stop the invasion prior to 24.2.2022, thanks for posting 

It's definitely real, a part of the documentary Un président, l'Europe et la guerre, which was available on Youtube at one point.

13 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Also Rhaena lost her first hatchling shortly after it hatched so she might not have wanted it made public untill she knew for certain that it would survive, and because a dead hatchling would also be bad omen others would probably agree so 129 is to my mind still an option.

If Morning had already hatched when Joffrey Velaryon went to King's Landing, he would have told his mother for sure and the small council would have known, too. So I think Morning had not hatched at that point. Anyways, I am not adamant about this.

2 hours ago, direpupy said:

but the actual hatching happened some time before that

I think that is not really clear:

On the last day of the year [130 AC], two hundred forty-one “barefoot lambs,” [...] were covered with pitch and chained to poles along the broad cobbled thoroughfare that ran eastward from Cobbler’s Square up to the Dragonpit. [...]

“Rhaenyra the Pretender was gone, her dragons dead, the mummer kings all fallen, and yet the realm knew not peace,” Septon Eustace wrote soon after. [...]

[Aegon II] started with the crownlands, sending forth his own men and the stormlanders of Borros Baratheon against Rosby, Stokeworth, and Duskendale and the surrounding keeps and villages. [...]

This campaign proved a grave mistake, for it only served to harden the hearts of the late queen’s men against the king. Reports soon reached King’s Landing of warriors gathering in great numbers at Winterfell, Barrowton, and White Harbor. [...]

Even more grave were the tidings from the Vale, where Lady Jeyne Arryn had assembled fifteen hundred knights and eight thousand men-at-arms, and sent envoys to the Braavosi to arrange for ships to bring them down upon King’s Landing. With them would come a dragon. Lady Rhaena of House Targaryen, brave Baela’s twin, had brought a dragon’s egg with her to the Vale…an egg that had proved fertile, bringing forth a pale pink hatchling with black horns and crest. Rhaena named her Morning.

It seems to me it was already some time into 131 AC when the Greens learned about Morning, so she could have hatched very early in 131, as well. I would not consider 129 AC an option anymore, though.

The wiki says that the dragon Morning hatched either in late 129 AC or in 130 AC. The first time she is mentioned is at the beginning of 131 AC, though, so I'm not sure why the wiki doesn't consider this date an option, as well.

43 minutes ago, Potsk said:

Do we consider the new characters and heraldry in the Dunk and Egg graphic novels to be canon in any way? They're currently presented as such on the wiki.

If you mean the participants at Ashford, Elio once said that they all come from GRRM himself.

38 minutes ago, direpupy said:

not all they information one those pages is from Blood of Dragons, so please be careful with what you remove.

I guess all information that is sourced by the BoD page has to be removed, or am I wrong?

@Ran

Keeper of the Keys, King's Counter, Warden of the King's Mint, and King's Scales contain information from this page. Can the information in the articles be considered semi-canon or should it be removed?

38 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The thinking seems to be this confuses the Russian response

This would require some strategic planning I just can't believe in. The bizarre thing is that with the Greens and the Liberals two parties in government support the idea to provide Taurus, but for the sake of preserving the coalition they don't vote for the measures which are suggested by the CDU/CSU, the biggest opposition party. I'm sure the Stranger Horse can give a more elaborate answer, but the short one is: There is no decision on the matter because Chancellor Olaf Scholz doesn't want it. He hesitated to provide Ukraine with weapons right from the beginning, including this tank debacle with the Leopards. I would love to get an explanation, but he refuses to give one. 

18 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Germany has voted in favour of delivering Taurus cruise missiles to Ukraine. Taurus has around a 30% longer range than Storm Shadow/SCALP and flies lower and faster, making them much harder to intercept. The Chancellor still needs to sign off on the deal.

It hasn't. 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Right but Dawn and the House itself are 10K years old, and the sword was created by the founder of the house.

Sure, but since we don't know any of the earlier wielders of Dawn, that doesn't help us to answer the question whether there were Dayne knights before the coming of the Andals, though.

7 minutes ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Was the first Sword of the Morning around before the religion of the Seven came to Westeros? If so, the Daynes could have been into knighthood regardless of religion. The Daynes are First Men so we know for sure that they were around before the religion of the Seven. The question is whether or not the first Sword of the Morning was around before or after the religion of the Seven. If he was around before, was he still called a 'Ser'? I genuinely don't remember the timeline here so it could be nothing, but still interesting. 

The first known Sword of the Morning is Ser Davos Dayne, who lived a long time after the coming of the Andals.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Absolutely nothing puts their knighthood in limbo. They’re knights 

I think that depends on what exactly is required for a proper knighting. I guess we can agree that it's not enough to just tell anyone 'You are a knight now' or randomly touch the other person with your sword. There has to be some kind of ritual which consists of touching the shoulders with a sword and saying some words (we know that from the Dunk & Egg stories). If these words are more or less formalised and include the mention of the Seven, the followers of the Faith may not consider the members of the brotherhood proper knights. If the words just have to make clear that what you do is a knighting, it may not be an issue.

1 hour ago, Potsk said:

And that requires to swear in the name of the Seven, so still related to that religion

Fair point, although one could argue that this doesn't necessarily mean the newly-made knight worships the Seven from that point on.

1 hour ago, Aebram said:

I recall a post theorizing that the tradition of knighthood existed in Westeros before the Andals arrived, and the Andals adapted their religion to include it.

That doesn't make much sense to me considering the fact that knighthood isn't widespread in the areas which are still mostly populated by people who don't follow the Seven. If it had been a First Men thing, we would see more of it in the North.

16 minutes ago, Bendric Dayne said:

I also didn't really know that knighthood was like an exclusive thing from the religion of the Seven

The concept of knighthood was brought to Westeros by the Andels and is closely tied to the Faith of the Seven. It's part of the ceremony to stand vigil in front of the statue of the Warrior the night before you receive knighthood, and you are anoited with the seven oils. Of course you can also be knighted on the battlefield regardless of your religion. But when a house has several knights over the course of a millennium, this is a strong hint that they follow the Seven.

29 minutes ago, Bendric Dayne said:

Although I would still ask what their religion was before. The Daynes are First Men so they were in Westeros before the religion of the Seven, so what religion did they belong to then? The Old Gods?

The Children of the Forest called Dorne 'the empty land', so I think their religion wasn't really widespread there. Maybe there were various local archaic religions like the deity Benedict Blackmont worshipped.

The knightly tradition (Ser Arthur, Ser Ulrick, Ser Joffrey, Ser Davos) strongly indicates that they follow the Seven.