ColdhandsIsEinhorn

Why do people keep assuming Trystane is going to KL alone, under the Lannister's power? Can't we assume Doran has some plan? Is it too much of a stretch to think that a healthy contingent of soldiers, a few sand snakes even, plus a lot of Dornish poison, will be accompanying him? I've agreed with all the criticism of the Dorne subplot up to this point, but come on.

You're now rooting for a guy who flays and castrates people for fun, hunts women for sport before RAPING THEIR CORPSES, and is as prolific a psychological torturer as a physical one, over a guy who made a difficult decision to sacrifice a loved one to save the realm from an existential threat? I see that you have 10k+ posts. Were they all knee-jerk reactions?

Is there a character that hasn't suffered immensely by death or sexual violence or mutilation, male or female? Seriously, why don't people understand that GRRM has presented us with a world that is rotten to the core, and a group of characters who may succeed in changing it? It's not a mirror to our world, its a mirror to the WORST of our world. Never mind that it's also peppered with elements of the best and some hope for a measure of progress, which is what we have read 5 books and are eagerly awaiting a 6th to root for. Fucking idiots and their addiction to self righteousness,

I thought that was strange at first too, and then they killed Hizdahr, and I realized that it was an expression of their rejection of Hizdahr's Peace and their willingness to kill anyone who tries to assimilate to the new order. I don't think that demonstrates Hizdahr's innocence regarding the Harpies, though. The show left out the part about Hizdahr Peace, but I think it's clear that he had some affiliation with the Harpies, and perhaps underestimated his influence with them. The poisoned locusts may well have been intended for him. If they got Dany, too, great, but otherwise they'd have poisoned Hizdahr to show her that they will never make peace with her. I think she realizes this in the book when she wonders if Hizdahr will be able to hold the throne in her absence, and she seemed to have come to terms with her Mad King side and found a new sense of purpose and direction. I think the show managed to present this without all the confusing intrigue, the 90 days or whatever it was, the Green Grace, and all the things that people bitched about from the book.

And this is why I think if we get the obvious Olly scene it will only be a false alarm for the FTW moment, and that the big one will come next season. I'm getting all worked up with predictions, like Stannis losing at Winterfell and Mel lives her vision but "walks the walls of Winterfell" as a prisoner, and is caught up in Sansa's escape, maybe returning to the Wall with Sansa and that provides the background for Jon vs Ramsay and the Watch turning on him. But I also think It's no coincidence that Brienne is finding herself in roughly the same place as Stannis, so maybe he wins but Brienne kills him... I don't know, I'n getting carried away. But I think we're set up for next season being: Jon's struggle to assimilate the Wildlings and keep his brothers on board, with the Bolton threat hanging over their heads - and the more I think about that the more I think Stannis has to lose at Winterfell Dany not returning and the Yunkish getting ready to move in while Tyrion - in the role of Selmy - tries to hold her throne. I can see someone in this context playing the role of Quentin by releasing the dragons, but doing it thinking they're helping Tyrion. Maybe the Iron Born come back into it for this too. More filler in KL as Cersei seethes and Kevin tries to deal with the faith and the Dornish.

The show's failures I'll grant you, but are you not following Dany's plot? Did you miss that whole "break the wheel" thing? Assuming you read the book, you also have that septon's speech, and in the show we have the High Sparrow explicitly talking about overthrowing the established order. Do you see what's going on here? Add in book Ellaria's speech about the endless cycle of revenge, Tyrion's thoughts on the same subject, and are we beginning to sense a theme? It's a stagnant, hyper-corrupt, hyper-violent world when we are introduced to it, and the whole series is about how it can either change or die.

Wow what a WHIIIIIIINNNNYYY bitch. I even agreed with some of this, but seriously pathetic, not clever or witty or entertaining at all, just unbridled WHINGING. Makes me glad I've been away from this forum for a couple years if this is what it's become. Why do people expect a tv show to be as subtle and as textured as a thousand page novel? Seriously? They set up the Stannis/Shireen dynamic to show the viewers who do not have access to all the background and all of Davos' ruminations that Stannis will do horrible things IN SPITE OF the human emotions that he actually does feel, as juxtaposed with Tywin, who has no feelings, Ned Stark, who will not do horrible things for the greater good or any other reason, and Robert who just buried his head in the sand. That's why he's the only one of those guys who is still going. Anyone who expected this show to ever provide anything more than a crude rendition of the texture and complexity of the novels is someone who must not be paying attention to what tv is. It astounds me that people come on here and whine about that, I've enjoyed the show when its been good, less so when its been bad, but even when it has been good, ITS STILL A TV SHOW AND NOT A THOUSAND PAGE NOVEL.

That is a good point about Stannis that people are definitely missing. Also the fact that he is the only contender whose goal is to unite the realm in order to deal with an existential threat, as opposed to greed, ego, ambition, etc. But I also think people are forgetting how little they liked Stannis before he showed up at the Wall. He wasn't a good guy, and the only good will generated on his behalf was by virtue of Davos. Then he saves the day at the Wall, treats Jon Snow with respect, pulls a rabbit out of his hat with the mountain clans, and, with Robb gone and Dany doing God-knows-what, there being no one else to really root for, he sort of won people over. The sacrifice of Shireen is totally consistent with his character. They did his character a disservice when they called it ambition, but he explained his reasoning to Davos when talking about Edric, and he explained it in the show to Shireen when he said there was no choice to be made, he's been charged with a duty whether he likes it or not and if he doesn't fulfill that duty the entire realm suffers. That said, I think criticisms of how the show presented it and how it presents Stannis in general are totally valid. Especially the fact that, as an earlier post mentioned, Mel was promising him a DRAGON for burning Edric, and all he gets from his own daughter is a thaw? Maybe there's a plot purpose to that, that no dragon waking is what will cause Mel to doubt herself and start wondering about Jon, so I'll bear with them on that one. But I still see no way that Stannis actually burns Shireen in the book. People are forgetting about Patchface. I also wonder if this reveal has some bearing on the Jon Snow cliffhanger, and what that might be. If Shireen is sacrificed, he must be out of the picture. I suppose he could be the stone dragon that Shireen's king's blood wakes, but that seems a little too neat. Aaaand there is that early draft in which Cat and some of the Stark children seek Jon's protection at the Wall, but when he is unwilling to break his vows to help them they wind up with the Wildlings, are attacked by WW, and Cat dies in that attack. I wonder if Selyse and Shireen will take that place, as the Marsh faction will want to turn them over to the Boltons. Then there is that tid bit about the Others not being able to pass the Wall as long as the NW stays "true". Jon noted that some of the black brothers had taken the red god. Maybe the use of fire magic blood sacrifice at the Wall, with some brothers participating will be the violation that breaks the warding spells, with them being "untrue" to the old powers, or violating the Pact through the use of fire magic. Just some speculation. I was annoyed when they actually went through with the burning, but I loved the episode as a whole and I'm pretty fired up about what it means for where we're at in the books.

First of all, I don't see the big FTW moment happening this season. I don't think it's been set up enough, Jon hasn't been LC long enough, we have no sense of his vision and only an idea of his intentions. Second, while the show has been over the top obvious with where the Olly thing is going, it doesn't really make sense that a conspiracy of NW brothers would have a child do their dirty work, presumably in a sneaky fashion. They have set Thorne up as Jon's antagonist, rather than Bowen Marsh (someone said his character had been cast? Has he been in actual episodes? I don't think I've noticed) but they've also presented him as brave and reasonably honorable. It's not consistent with his character to put a child up to something like that. I wouldn't think they would just dispense with the whole conspiracy aspect of it. Maybe all we get with Olly is a mini-attack that foreshadows the larger event, which I feel pretty certain will happen next season, after Jon starts giving land to the wildlings and getting more intertwined with Stannis. We've hardly even had any Jon and Mel back and forth.

When you aggressively miss the point, you make me wonder why I'm even crediting you with a response. I said: too early for Jons assassination,not enough setup, but looks like Olly's gonna do it Another poster said: Looks like Olly's gonna stab him but I agree its too soon for Jons assassination, maybe he'll just go solo and it won't be "the moment" You said: OMG GUYS THEY CANT NOT HAVE JONS ASSINATION YOU IDIOTS NOW IM GONNA BUTCHER A METAPHOR AND BE A DICK There's no debate, over "semantics" or anything else, just a clarification on my part, for someone who obviously doesn't understand a whole lot, and a request for clarification from me for your absurd and futile attempt at trollish wit.

The show had so far failed to convey the sense of urgency that the book has at this point regarding the Others, or the desperation on the part of the wildlings. Like, how did Tormund even know they were at Hardhome? It wasn't a place they'd have gone as a natural rally point, and he would have no way of knowing what befell them after the battle. Buuuuut one battle scene solved everything. Now its a lot more plausible that Jon would try to convince his brother to accept the wildlings who just tried to kill them, we see the desperation that pushes the wildlings to accept the plan. It really drove home the threat posed and the urgency of Jon's mission.

The two possibilities are not mutually exclusive. I think the point was just that its too soon for Jons Caesar moment to happen this season, but the show has clearly set Olly up to be the Brutus Also, how do you "ride" a circle jerk?

Yes but the show has to make it plausible. Arya can't become "no one" but the FM lose prestige if they can be so easily fooled. We know the show is changing things that don't have a huge impact on the outcome, but not much time is spent on the Oldtown conspiracy in the books, so if it wasn't important GRRM could have just as easily had Jaqen back at the House of Black and White by the time Arya arrived. The viewers need to see that its her friend to understand that a favor is being done for her. Readers can speculate on what the real reason is.

This is a little off your point, but it occurs to me that the kindly man may very well know that Arya will never become "no one" and is willing to train her anyway, whether because someone paid on her behalf or Jaqen vouched for her or simply because of the Starks having long been anti-slavers or having some other association with Bravos/Faceless men that hasn't been fully elaborated yet, or maybe just because he pities her and/or thinks she could still serve the many-faced god even if she isn't a full fledged FM, or just some other reason. The show could be presenting that as Jaqen, being her friend, doing her a solid by letting her get as much useful training as she can knowing all the while that she will "fail" and never become one of them.

I think this is too historical a view, since the story isn't going to adhere to our inferences about the history of this fake world. There's a reason it's all so vague. I think the story of Azor Ahai is as much an origin myth about the invention of Valyrian steel as anything. And, unless I'm remembering the legend wrong - it has been a couple of years - I think it's significant that Jon, in that battle scene, tried two weapons against the WW, which both shattered, before finding Longclaw. Didn't the first two swords AA made shatter, then the third was Lightbringer? Maybe I'm remembering that wrong, but I thought that sequence might have been a nod to that myth for the benefit of the readers.

I think its obvious that Tyrion will be commanding her forces with Selmy out of the picture, and that will be fantastic. The thing I don't get is that we have the pit scene coming up in one of the last two eps, and we havent had any set up of the yunkish, the siege, the peace, etc. Are they going to arrange it so that Dany's enemies move in AFTER she disappears to capitalize? I can see the season ending on a cliffhanger with Dany's fate not being clear, and then next season its Tyrion, Hizdhar, and the anti-Dany coalition. Even if the audience does get to see that Dany is alive, I'm just not sure how they're going to pull all that together. I guess we'll have some more Tyrion in charge. It would also be too rushed to have Jon's scene this season. It's pretty clear that Olly will be the Brutus rather than...drawing a blank, not Satin but the other one who may have tampered with the letter, who's wrist Jon grabs, anyway... they laid it on pretty thick with Sam telling Olly that a man has to do things that others think is wrong when he knows its right, and then obliviously telling Olly not to worry, that Jon will be back. I don't think that's what Olly was worried about. But Jon hasn't had time to even really develop his plans. I think the battle at Hardhome will provide the catalyst, the thing he can point to every time someone questions what he's doing, and that makes it more plausible that he would even attempt to get the NW to go along with opening the gate to the army they were just miraculously saved from. I don't know, I didn't think Stannis' march was real when it happened. Felt too early, but he's clearly hunkered down just like in the book, though he may still send Mel back to the wall, and perhaps Davos to find Rickon. Its hard to call the way they've jumbled the storylines, but I just don't see Jon getting stabbed this season. Though I do desperately want for the season to end with that cliffhanger. I know people who are diehards of the show but haven't read the books, and they don't seem to pick up on the fact that I never talk about Jon snow. It is killing me. I want them to share my pain, to have to suffer and wait to find out like I've been these last, oh man, 4 years. All I've ever said to them is that the last book ended with a bunch of cliffhangers and they say ok ok don't say any more. Also, if that happened this season, we'd have a definite endpoint of next April for finding out for sure if he's alive, dead, resurrected, whatever, whether TWOW is out by then or not.