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  1. thi4f

    The election of the Lord Commander

    + 4th level Cleric spell, Mass Plot Armor, for all rangers in his party.
  2. thi4f

    Why did nobody try to curb Joffrey?

    You seem angry about Robert, for some odd reason. Some thoughts: I don't want to change subject too much, but when it comes to bankrupting the realm... well, I'd just say I don't really buy that narrative. Sure, we have many opinions on poor state finances in 298 AC, but there is really no good explanation given. If he was recruiting huge armies, building castles, improving infrastructure, made poor investments - in other words, dealing carelessly with HUGE amounts of money - that would make sense. But feasts and tourneys? Does GRRM really want me to believe that King of the Seven Kingdoms has a budget of mid-tier NBA player that can go bankrupt in Atlantic City, buying expensives watches and paying rent for his Nantucket mansion? Hah, a good one. I'd say that Littlefinger, bottom-5 moral person, the most unethical bureaucrat in Westeros, has been the Master of Coins for many years now and became one of the richest men around. His responsibility is at least plausible. I don't recall Robert being with whores constantly while Ned kept an eye on him in King's Landing or on the road. We have many accounts that he's unfaithful and likes ladies, but he's not "living in a brothel" either. You mention those 16 bastards as the evidence of what, exactly? Inefficient governing? How was Robert different from other rulers of past epochs? Ramessess II (the Great) had 52 bastard SONS mentioned by name on monuments that survived 3000+ years so we can read about them Genghis Khan is estimated to have 200 children easily Augustus II the Strong (King of Saxony and Poland, XVIII century) fathered around 350 children I found sultans who allegedly fathered 500+ kids, the highest estimate for Ismail ibn Sharif being 1100 modern Saudi Arabian kings father dozens, if not hundreds of children. I underlined the word "family" so I'm not accused of suggesting that one king himself fathered 15.000 ;) But it just shows what numbers we are talking about, the scale is just huge. Would you describe any of the above as whoring all the time? When it comes to opinions of Cersei, Jon and Stannis. Sure, they are a source of knowledge to us, I guess, but these are subjective opinions, most of all. Jon Snow compared his first impression of Robert Baratheon to stories he's heard, stories about a 6'6" muscular warrior, smashing enemies left and right. Hard to live up to those expectations. Jon's thoughts can only serve as a proof of Bobby's obesity. But whoring? Cersei is biased against Robert, I mean she was aborting his children for 15 years :D hard to interpret this one-liner as an in-depth relation of Robert's daily schedule. Sure, he was having sex with other women, and a lot of it, but again how is it different from other rulers in history, from any culture, any point in time? Freddie Mercury was a singer. I had a dream about him singing on Wembley Stadium, because I've seen it and he is known for that. I didn't dream about him having a breakfast, reading Daily Mirror, composing songs, rehearsing or partying, because he I associate him with concerts. I'm not surprised Stannis associated Robert with parties, that's what he enjoyed. Is any of those claims a proof Robert was always whoring and drinking? I agreed with you that he's no saint, but DOING IT ALL THE TIME is such an obvious hyperbole on your part. Drunk and whoring don't have much in common with decency, at least in my opinion ;) Cheers
  3. thi4f

    Why did nobody try to curb Joffrey?

    I agree with your assessment in most part, but I think portraying Robert as "always drunk and whoring" is needlessly simplistic, if not unfair. In my opinion you pretty much nailed it. Especially the part about whipping boy.
  4. thi4f

    Question about the Red Wedidng

    They say Robert Baratheon was as good as dead once he went hunting in the Kingswood. It would've been an accident, the boar was just a welcome opportunity for Lancel (and other potential culprits). If it failed, he could still fall from his horse, drown etc. The same applies for Robb, even to a greater degree, I think. There were dozens of Freys conspiring to kill him, so if he left the great hall, they'd kill him elsewhere using any means necessary. At best, he would earn an hour more, I'd say.
  5. thi4f

    9 Kingdoms instead of 7

    I think chances are slim. One of the (possible) reasons being: nobody wants cancerous Iron Islands independent, they are just too random and unreliable. Just take a look at Balon and his brothers - would you trust any one of them to carry out peaceful politics? They are in "attack mode" even without proper assets.
  6. thi4f

    Robb Stark

    I'd rather ask this question in the context of Wyllas and especially Edmure - as others noted before. Ned Stark wasn't as obssessed with beneficial side of marriages as Hoster Tully or Walder Frey. It's probable he didn't even consider Robb's future marriage seriously at that point, the boy was just 15.
  7. thi4f

    Forgive one of the following?

    There's a difference between "who committed the greatest crime/sin", "who deserves the harshest treatment" and "who is the most deserving of forgiveness". How can I forgive a fictional character? Should I assume I am the VICTIM of their sins, i.e. I am in position of Daenerys, relating to Mirri Maz Durr? As it is, the question is not clear enough to me. But at least I can easily discard Gerold Dayne because he doesn't ask for forgiveness, he doesn't feel remorse and definitely isn't repenting. Jaime, while charismatic, attempted to murder Bran Stark to hide his crimes. And Theon arguably brought the most suffering out of the five contestants with warfare, pillage, betrayal and deceit. Mutilation at hands of Ramsay left his mind frail, but it doesn't mean he is truly regretting, and his sins are just awful. So, it would be between Mirri Maz Durr and Sandor Clegane. I still can't believe Daenerys trusted a shadowbinder whose world was destroyed by the very person she's supposed to cure. Moron.
  8. You see, I don't think that "rules and oaths" are open to interpretation. Even if we're not sure how it exactly works in Westeros, I'm 100% sure such things are governed by laws. You are citing "feudal" laws and "feudal society traditions" a lot, but what do these terms exactly mean in Seven Kingdoms? It seems GRRM doesn't really care about letting us know, or maybe he doesn't care at all. Some considerations about laws and government: there is a saying, "a vassal of my vassal is not my vassal", and also the contradictory statement: "a vassal of my vassal IS my vassal". Both rules held true in different parts of Europe; does Westeros follow one of them? is the King of Seven Kingdoms the legal owner of all lands? if he is, does it mean we have a patrimonial monarchy in Westeros? Why some nobles are granted a title of Lord Paramount - which meant the overlord, the principal owner of all lands in a realm, sitting on top of the ladder? if he is the owner, what is the relationship between so called Lords Paramount and their "bannermen", i.e. Tully-Frey relationship? Tully doesn't have their own lands, so they can't have a vassal - they have no fiefs to grant; if the King is NOT the owner of all lands, then what is the structure of manors (lands) in Westeros? What is the relation between demesne, serf and free peasant land? One day I'll make a thread about it here. I believe that Westeros doesn't resemble any particular medieval government closely, which leads to discrepancies, imho.
  9. Oh, maybe that was a poor wording on my part. I think Renly could've handled the talk with Eddard slightly better, but that scene convinces me he is "quick to act" when it's needed. In the context of Renly biding his time in Reach, I really need that ACOK reread. To my best knowledge he had enough time to stay at Bitterbridge for a while, plus he was gathering an army of 80-100k troops. When it comes to Renly "forcing" Robb to marry someone other than Frey - I LOVE this idea. What a shame... My impression is that Blackfish was more important to Robb's victories than Robb himself, at least at this point in the story.
  10. I need to reread ACOK to get the details, but I think Renly was "okayish" with Robb being titled a "King in the North" as long as it's not a real secession. Perhaps Robb doesn't have to bend the knee in a iteral way, just agree with his War Council that "we support Renly's claim instead of Joffrey's" and start a fight. Could be my imagination, though. I'd say even without additional tens of thousands of Reach/Stormlands troops, Robb's forces at the time were formidable enemy for House Lannister! Renly impressed me as a young politician capable of immediate action once he approached Eddard at Robert's deathbed. I think they could work together seamlessly as long as there is a Lannister threat. Who knows what happens next - definitely not Red Wedding though.
  11. thi4f

    Favorite POV Character

    Only sticking to AGOT... When it comes to POV characters, my favorite has to Eddard, followed by Arya. These two are among my top10 favorite characters in the books. When it comes to POV chapters, Eddard again comes on top (15 great chapters, really no filler), followed by Catelyn (11 chapters, this is pure gold after she kidnapped Tyrion) and the Dwarf himself (9 chapters, roughly 3 in the North, 3 in captivity and 3 at war; his later chapters are quintessential).
  12. thi4f

    Regarding Cersei Lannister

    I agree, she was perfectly fine as a character in AGOT-ACOK-ASOS.
  13. thi4f

    Why do people love Dany?

    It's one of the most improbable events in all of ASOIAF. Even small time beginner gunrunner selling his first MAC-10 would know better than Kraznys, who is in the Unsullied/slaves business for decades. That was silly writing in my opinion.
  14. Wow, we've got fantastic discussion going on, I'm glad. There are so many options and no clear-cut winner. First and foremost, I think the Council with half of Northern and Rivermen lords is a good moment to rethink strategy, given new circumstances. Much has changed since Moat Cailin and Twins and House Stark is on a winning side lately. What objectives are realistic then? Let's give it some consideration. House Lannister and King Joffrey are responsible for imprisoning Eddard and sending him to death. Their armies brought much suffering to Riverlands with death, rape and pillage. Joffrey, even if he's a rightful king in the eyes of Robb, cannot be trusted to keep Pax Baratheon like his father did, and it's only a matter of time he'll try to undermine Robb - I don't believe the North will enjoy the freedom once Joffrey's hold on Iron Throne is solid; in the eyes of Catelyn Stark and bannermen, Lannisters are also responsible for Jon Arryn's death and Bran's assassination attempt; most bannermen have personal reasons to drive House Lannister to the ground. Lord Vance, Raymun Darry, two Karstarks, Daryn and Halys Hornwood are dead. Two Manderlys and Harrion Karstark are POWs. Most realms in the Riverlands are set aflame, Jonos Bracken daughter was raped. Riverlands and the North want revenge across the board, with the exception of Freys - but they are still committed. For these reasons Robb should continue his war with Lannisters. That was the original reason to raise his armies and now it's more relevant than ever. Peace with Lannisters and Joffrey (same thing essentially) will allow them Tywin to retreat safely, raise new armies, maybe even get new allies. The North accomplishes nothing, it would be better to stay at home all the time. Damage to morale would be huge. Besides, Blackfish is certain that Tywin sooner or later comes back to men-depleted Riverlands, but now in a much better position. So their objective should be: to crush Lannister forces, make them ask for a shameful peace AND depose King Joffrey as a secondary goal. Quick run through Lords' strategies: In order to take Casterly Rock, Robb has to take Golden Tooth first, win his battles with remaining Westerlands forces (not mustered yet) and then lay siege to a well equipped, top5 castle in Westeros. Very risky plan. It could potentially draw Tywin's army back home, but what if Robb's numbers are severely depleted during his campaign? Tywin still has 18-19k soldiers and Roose army is far away. Joint attack on Harrenhal has some merits. IF they succeed, they have Tywin in their hands and war is basically over. But Harrenhal, even in ruin, is one hell of a fortress. Robb can't conquer it in a short amount of time. At least I don't believe he's able to, for now. I really like Mallister suggesting that Tywin supply chains can be harrassed and Lannisters can potentially run out of resources soon. This will force them out of Harrenhal, quite likely. I'm not sure if full investment (both circumvallation and contravallation) of Harrenhal is possible with some ~15k soldiers, but even if not, supply lines can be cut off. It takes good maneuvering and gathering intelligence, but it's doable. In my opinion, Robb should listen to Jason Mallister and Janos Bracken suggestions to form a plan with elements of both. He should send letters to King Renly, Stannis and (perhaps) even Balon to get a sense if they will help with fighting/crippling the Lannisters. Greyjoy will probably still attack because... well, they are Greyjoys, not interested in long term strategical advantages; they prefer short term gains. As long as Robb doesn't claim a crown for himself, Baratheon bros would be open to form an alliance. If Renly goes north with his MASSIVE army - to join Starks and crush Tywin - it's possible he'll never meet Stannis and stays alive. This is the best possible outcome for the North, imho. If Renly dies anyway, alliance with Stannis is also beneficial. He will march towards King's Landing first, I presume, but his chances with Tywin pinned at Harrenhal (potentially starving) are much higher. In this scenario, remaining Houses may rethink their policies. It's not a given Tyrells will join Lannisters if they are "drawing dead", and with this new political landscape, House Martell and Arryn might come into play. Of course this strategy relies on cutting off Tywin's communications and supplies. Casterly Rock is fully stocked, but not Harrenhal.