Warging into humans

[Mithras]

Although Varamyr was very close to death when he tried to slip into Thistle, I dont think it matters because Bloodraven is more dead than Varamyr in every sense and he can still fly.

I dont use the term animal as an insult by the way. I like animals more than humans because they are not capable of doing evil. My point is that Hodor has a simple ego as far as we know and he already has a deep emotional connection with Bran, he trusts him that he would not harm him. These are the most important points in skinchanging. You cannot skinchange into every random animal because the animal must trust you and let you in in the first place. The process is freaking and simple egos like animals will fight it as much as they can.

Emotional connections make the process easier. Dogs are easiest to give their skins because they have innate emotional ties to humans more than any other animals. Wild animals are not that easy. And humans are almost impossible except special cases. Hodor is a special case. You cannot extrapolate him.

[Dr. Pepper]

Although Varamyr was very close to death when he tried to slip into Thistle, I dont think it matters because Bloodraven is more dead than Varamyr in every sense and he can still fly.

Somehow I don't think Varamyr's lingering on death and Bloodraven's supernaturally extended 'life' is all that comparable. I'm also rather confused because your argument in the thread is that warging humans is immensely difficult unless they are half a pet, and then you compare Varaymyr's failed attempts with Thistle to Bloodraven's warging of birds? To be clear, Thistle was also killed (by wights or Others, can't remember which) at the same time Varamyr was trying to claim her skin.

I dont use the term animal as an insult by the way. I like animals more than humans because they are not capable of doing evil. My point is that Hodor has a simple ego as far as we know and he already has a deep emotional connection with Bran, he trusts him that he would not harm him. These are the most important points in skinchanging. You cannot skinchange into every random animal because the animal must trust you and let you in in the first place. The process is freaking and simple egos like animals will fight it as much as they can.

This is wrong. Varamyr's animals hated him. His animals fought it. Varamyr also made a habit of claiming the animals of others, like Haggon's wolf and Orell's bird and wanted to claim Jon's direwolf. I hardly doubt these animals had a strong trust of one like Varamyr.

Emotional connections make the process easier. Dogs are easiest to give their skins because they have innate emotional ties to humans more than any other animals. Wild animals are not that easy. And humans are almost impossible except special cases. Hodor is a special case. You cannot extrapolate him.

Can't argue with you there. It does seem that some things can make the process easier. A gentle touch, perhaps. It's also apparent that some species are easier than others. But really, there's little evidence that humans are almost impossible. More difficult, perhaps. After all, Varamyr was inside Thistle's skin even while she was biting off her tongue, scratching out her eyes and screaming. Varamyr's own animals experienced similar moments when he took their skins. I agree there isn't rampant human warging going on. Just can't agree that it's nearly impossible to warg humans when we've basically seen it happen twice, even if one was a failed attempt due to fighting the skinchanger and then death and one was due to -what did you call it?- being 'half a pet'.

[oursisthefury69]

I think Ned did hear Bran and that bran will continue to do things bloodraven thinks impossible

[Mithras]

First of all I am giving the quote so that we can recall the event.

He summoned all the strength still in him, leapt out of his own skin, and forced himself inside her.

Thistle arched her back and screamed.

Abomination. Was that her, or him, or Haggon? He never knew. His old flesh fell back into the snowdrift as her fingers loosened. The spear-wife twisted violently, shrieking. His shadowcat used to fight him wildly, and the snow bear had gone half-mad for a time, snapping at trees and rocks and empty air, but this was worse. “Get out, get out!” he heard her own mouth shouting. Her body staggered, fell, and rose again, her hands flailed, her legs jerked this way and that in some grotesque dance as his spirit and her own fought for the flesh. She sucked down a mouthful of the frigid air, and Varamyr had half a heartbeat to glory in the taste of it and the strength of this young body before her teeth snapped together and filled his mouth with blood. She raised her hands to his face. He tried to push them down again, but the hands would not obey, and she was clawing at his eyes. Abomination, he remembered, drowning in blood and pain and madness. When he tried to scream, she spat their tongue out.

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes.

Somehow I don't think Varamyr's lingering on death and Bloodraven's supernaturally extended 'life' is all that comparable. I'm also rather confused because your argument in the thread is that warging humans is immensely difficult unless they are half a pet, and then you compare Varaymyr's failed attempts with Thistle to Bloodraven's warging of birds? To be clear, Thistle was also killed (by wights or Others, can't remember which) at the same time Varamyr was trying to claim her skin.

I was trying to say that normal humans can fight you back far more violently than animals. Thistle was not killed by wights, she fought back Varamyr and kicked him out but she bit her tongue, removed her eyes and got crazy. Wights killed her later.

This is wrong. Varamyr's animals hated him. His animals fought it. Varamyr also made a habit of claiming the animals of others, like Haggon's wolf and Orell's bird and wanted to claim Jon's direwolf. I hardly doubt these animals had a strong trust of one like Varamyr.

I am not sure whether Varamyr's animals hated him but some of his animals definitely fought him all the time. He names his shadowcat and snow bear as such and adds that it is much worse with a human. These animals are very wild predators and probably Varamyr didnot raise them since they were pups, That is why they fight him all the time. Stark direwolves are different because they are raised by the Stark kids since they were pups. I agree that part of other skinchangers live in their animals and they may still fight back Varamyr but that should not be much a problem because it is only a small part of them, which fades by the time.

Can't argue with you there. It does seem that some things can make the process easier. A gentle touch, perhaps. It's also apparent that some species are easier than others. But really, there's little evidence that humans are almost impossible. More difficult, perhaps. After all, Varamyr was inside Thistle's skin even while she was biting off her tongue, scratching out her eyes and screaming. Varamyr's own animals experienced similar moments when he took their skins. I agree there isn't rampant human warging going on. Just can't agree that it's nearly impossible to warg humans when we've basically seen it happen twice, even if one was a failed attempt due to fighting the skinchanger and then death and one was due to -what did you call it?- being 'half a pet'.

Read the quote I gave at the beginning. I think it requires no further explanation.

[Lummel]

The flip side of Varamyr being weak and close to death when he attempted to warg Thistle is that he was hugely experienced at subduing animals that hated him - the shadowcat and the bear. He seems to have been unusually powerful, or possibly unusually obnoxious, (or both,) as the other skinchangers we see seem to stick with animals with whom they have a mutual affinity.

Given how Thistle reacted and given how long it took for Bran to establish reliable control over Hodor I'd say to safely presume that a person has been warged there would have to be a lengthy period of time for the warg to build up control over the victim, the warg would have to be indifferent to the wishes of the victim and the warg would probably not come from the wildling skinchanging tradition in which warging people is viewed as taboo.

[Facebookless Man]

My thinking is that when GRRM wrote Bran is the only person known to slip into a human, he actually meant it. Bran is the only human to slip into a human. I think a lot of the things we are told cannot be done, will be done by Bran. For example, BR told Bran he couldn't communicate with his father through the weirwood. I believe he will successfully talk to someone.

We already know this to be fact when Theon is in the godswood. The wind blows and Bran says "Theon"

In a later chapter, Bran does exactly this after seeing Theon. It can be done.

BR only said you cant talk to someone you see in the past. I don't think warging humans or communicating through the weirnet is anything special to Bran.

[Dorian Martell]

Of the two examples given in the books, one is a warg who is just getting to know his mojo skin changing into a mentally retarded man. A simpleton as they say in the books. The other example is the most powerful warg beyond the wall trying to skin change into a fuly aware adult. The first works, the second fails miserably. It is safe to say that Hodor's mental deficiencies are what allows bran to do the deed.

[Northernmonkey]

I can definately see where people warging could cause some brain trauma or insanity to both parties even if consensual

One of my favourite theories is that Euron didn't molest Aeron when he was a kid, but he used to warg him. There are clues that Euron is a warg (what he tells Vic about dreaming he could fly) and it fits in with the idea that Euron is also warging the dusky woman.

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

Hodor doesn't just allow Bran inside him, he does fight him and he doesn't like it at all, but he doesn't have the mental strength to fight him, let alone fully understand what's going on. That being said, he does sense it is Bran and he has a strong connection with him, which makes it easier for Bran. It already says alot about both Hodor's character and the bond with Bran that he carries him on his back for miles and miles through wind, rain and snow.

I do not think we will ever see full-on warging of a healthy, conscious and intelligent human. Neither will we see warging of a dragon, if a bear fights back, imagine a magic, fire-breathing, flying dragon. There's the way warging works, the 'physics' of warging and magic that may or may not allow human warging, but there's also the story-telling aspect. It is impossible to write a story, especially with unreliable narrators when humans can get warged at will. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible to skinchange into another human.

Varamyr is just way too full of himself that's why his attempt to skinchange Thistle fails, he's really good obviously, but still not good enough. Euron warging the dusky woman is not even worth crackpotting about.

[joe42m1]

Varamyr wasn't trying to 'warg' into Thistle, he was trying to transfer his consciousness into her and live on within her body while his original body dies. This is different than merely possessing someone for a time, and I assume it is much harder also. It seems like the success rate depends on the abilities of the possessor and the amount of resistance from the possessee.

Skinchanging into humans is almost assuredly harder with humans. I don't know if its automatically because they are human, or if it's because humans have higher mental capabilites. I would think the latter since Bran seems to be able to possess Hodor with greater ease, although I do agree that having a connection with person or animal would make it easier. We also don't have an accurate way of gauging somebody's skinchanging power other than "X is stronger than Y"; are we talking on a scale of 1-10 or are we talking orders of magnitude?

[CassBlackfyre]

Of the two examples given in the books, one is a warg who is just getting to know his mojo skin changing into a mentally retarded man. A simpleton as they say in the books. The other example is the most powerful warg beyond the wall trying to skin change into a fuly aware adult. The first works, the second fails miserably. It is safe to say that Hodor's mental deficiencies are what allows bran to do the deed.

Or Bran is just a far more powerful warg/skinchanged than Varamyr

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Bran is a superior warg to 6skins, that's probably why he could get in Hodor.

He's a greenseer while 6skins is just a warg

Bran has clear thoughts as Bran when he wargs something

When 6skins wargs the wolf, his human identity is far in the background of the wolf identity like when he calls peoples swords their claws and is annoyed at how loud human pups are.

[Mithras]

Varamyr wasn't trying to 'warg' into Thistle, he was trying to transfer his consciousness into her and live on within her body while his original body dies. This is different than merely possessing someone for a time, and I assume it is much harder also. It seems like the success rate depends on the abilities of the possessor and the amount of resistance from the possessee.

Skinchanging into humans is almost assuredly harder with humans. I don't know if its automatically because they are human, or if it's because humans have higher mental capabilites. I would think the latter since Bran seems to be able to possess Hodor with greater ease, although I do agree that having a connection with person or animal would make it easier. We also don't have an accurate way of gauging somebody's skinchanging power other than "X is stronger than Y"; are we talking on a scale of 1-10 or are we talking orders of magnitude?

Varamyr was exactly trying to skinchange into Thistle like he does to any other animals. Once hIf he would gained full control, he could have stayed there to the end. The quote is very clear. The spirit of Varamyr and Thistle is fighting for the flesh. I imagine animals do not have strong spirits as humans, if they have spirits at all. The very basic of skinchanging is much like a marriage. Haggon said that. It is especially true with the wolves. Therefore, the consent of the meatsuit matters a lot.

[Dagon]

How is Hodor more animal than human? That's a pretty offensive statement.

BR is a very powerful skinchanger and greenseer, and it is heavily implied that Bran will surpass him. I think that they can skinchange into humans, because, you know, it's already happened.

Lol, I found that incredibly off-putting as well. It explains that Hodor put up resistance, but gave up after repeated attempts. It could also be due to the fact Hodor never fights (like when he was being tormented by some idiotic children in the past) so skin-changing into him is easier.

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

Lol, I found that incredibly off-putting as well. It explains that Hodor put up resistance, but gave up after repeated attempts. It could also be due to the fact Hodor never fights (like when he was being tormented by some idiotic children in the past) so skin-changing into him is easier.

I believe the OP didn't mean Hodor is more animal or less of a human, just that his mental strength in regards to warging isn't the same as a grown man. The mental strength of an animal is also not the same as a grown man.

[Dr. Pepper]

First of all I am giving the quote so that we can recall the event.

I was trying to say that normal humans can fight you back far more violently than animals. Thistle was not killed by wights, she fought back Varamyr and kicked him out but she bit her tongue, removed her eyes and got crazy. Wights killed her later.

I am not sure whether Varamyr's animals hated him but some of his animals definitely fought him all the time. He names his shadowcat and snow bear as such and adds that it is much worse with a human. These animals are very wild predators and probably Varamyr didnot raise them since they were pups, That is why they fight him all the time. Stark direwolves are different because they are raised by the Stark kids since they were pups. I agree that part of other skinchangers live in their animals and they may still fight back Varamyr but that should not be much a problem because it is only a small part of them, which fades by the time.

Read the quote I gave at the beginning. I think it requires no further explanation.

You're right. Varamyr left Thistle before she was killed. He was still inside her. He also comments on how he had to summon all of his strength. We've still seen someone warg into a human at least twice. Even if one is a failed attempt and one is a gentle giant who can not speak beyond saying "Hodor".

I have not said that warging a human is easy nor have I said that it's something that happens all the time. In fact, I've explicitly stated the opposite. We've seen it happen, therefore it's not impossible. I think it's likely that there is a taboo it means that it's obviously possible. There's a taboo on eating the flesh of a human while warged or mating with an animal while warged, but it still happens. Seems Varamyr simply did not have the strength or time to take full control of his victim before his body died. Or perhaps he finally understood why it was an abomination to mind rape someone.

[Dorian Martell]

Bran is a superior warg to 6skins, that's probably why he could get in Hodor.

He's a greenseer while 6skins is just a warg

Bran has clear thoughts as Bran when he wargs something

When 6skins wargs the wolf, his human identity is far in the background of the wolf identity like when he calls peoples swords their claws and is annoyed at how loud human pups are.

There is nothing to show that bran is more powerful at skinchanging that V6s. Bran has Summer and Hodor. V6s has 6 animals and a penchant for doing the things his teacher said was an abomination. Bran has to be warned by Jojen that feeding while warged is not really feeding. He also refuses to exert control over summer in the beginning and bring them meat that the wolf killed. V6s not only is the most powerful warg beyond the wall, but he actively takes other skinchanger's animals. All of this means that if the most powerful skinchanger beyond the wall cannot warg into an ordinary healthy adult than Hodor being a simpleton is why bran can do it.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

There is nothing to show that bran is more powerful at skinchanging that V6s. Bran has Summer and Hodor. V6s has 6 animals and a penchant for doing the things his teacher said was an abomination. Bran has to be warned by Jojen that feeding while warged is not really feeding. He also refuses to exert control over summer in the beginning and bring them meat that the wolf killed. V6s not only is the most powerful warg beyond the wall, but he actively takes other skinchanger's animals. All of this means that if the most powerful skinchanger beyond the wall cannot warg into an ordinary healthy adult than Hodor being a simpleton is why bran can do it.

There are things that point to Bran being more powerful than 6skins.

We know that Bran is a greenseer, which is more than a warg.

And that Bran has more awareness of himself while warging, while inside Hodor, Bran has clear awareness of himself.

When 6skins warged the wolf he barely had awareness of his 6skins self

[Mithras]

Bran has much more potential than Varamyr but skinchanging requires training. I am not sure whether Bran (before the cave) is able to take the skin of a random adult snow bear like Varamyr did.

[frensj]

Suppose Bran will become an all powerfull skinchanger that has "no problem" warging/skinchanging other people in the future like he has no problem now with Hogor.. Or some other superwarger type of person. Whatever.

When a warg dies and goes into his animal, he can live on for years before he 'disappears'. It is suggested (or said?) that this might be because the brain of an animal can not support a human's consciousness properly. If this is the case, shouldn't the warger remain in control/conscious then for the rest of the life of his new body?

Suppose this superwarger sees death coming, like Varamyr. Could he then warg another person (why, yes he could). Could he then warg animals or persons with that 'new' body? What if the warged person was a warg, maybe then? Is warging something mental, or is it still physically supported by the body...

I know, very hypothetical question, but I was wondering, anyone has any thought about this?

note: skinchanging takes too long to type all the time :)