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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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...has no one ever thought that:


"And so it begins"/"no, so it ends" doesn't refer to that particular battle or the rebellion, but to Jon's reign? It might mean both of course, it's ambiguous enough.



At this point it seems futile to crown Jon, but perhaps the KG had a plan. It seems strange that they did not in fact leave the country with the heir to the throne. Granted Lyanna was apparently still alive when Ned found her, but...still. Towards her, they had no proper obligation, besides their own conscience and Rhaegar's memory.



And though this seems silly, Gerold Dayne did have a hand in the Myrcella plot and it would make for a nice parallel if Arthur Dayne and the remaining KG sought to make a last stand to reinstate a Targaryen on the throne. It might explain the disappearance of the mysterious Ashara, too, if say she had a mission to accomplish in Essos...(hire the Golden Company?) that'd be a nice twist.



The Daynes are a mysterious bunch, flying just below the radar of both Dorne and Westeros. I'm just wondering how they are involved in the story.

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Darn, I have the TOJ on my clipboard, ready to paste. Well, I'm going to paste it anyway, because no R+L thread is complete without it. First though, many people focus only on Rhaegar, some mention Lyanna in passing, but seem to discard any notion that she was a real lady of a prominent house, or had any scruples. We know that she had scruples, and disliked Robert because he had none. We also know that she sparred with the future first ranger, making a point that she could defend herself. So, why did they go to the tower, and hide? Lyanna was betrothed to Robert. Aerys may have put his seal to the betrothal, and Rhaegar and Lyanna are both defying him if he did. They are also defying Rickard and Robert. If they wed it could be put aside, but if there was a child putting it aside would be far more difficult. So, they hid until the child was born. Better to ask for forgiveness than to ask permission. What could be in Lyanna's tomb? I like the wedding cloak. A dragon egg is a nice touch, too. Even Rhagar's harp. But, what if there is a Targaryen seal ring? OOoo. I like that. "I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. Ned expected the majority of the Kingsguard to be present at the major battle. We know that three of them were present, and only Ser Barristan (barely) survived.“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered. Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard answers this, so none of previous comment can be directed at Arthur or Oswell directly, and Gerold is accepting responsibility for their actions. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by Gerold or Oswell in the next line.“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell. This states that Robert is considered a usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle if these three had been allowed to enter into it.“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead. Again, Ned expresses his surprise to not see these three Kingsguard doing their duty of protecting and defending the king. “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” The Lord Commander says that their duties were elsewhere, too far away to do anything about the events Ned is relating. He condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king. This reaffirms their loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty.“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for the Kingsguard to surrender to him. “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks. “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard are stating that they would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow. “Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend the king (then). This lends some credance to the curse of Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, later, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety to guard another heir.“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold. Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties. • Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys. • Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three. “And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. The final, or most important battle of the Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. Arthur is confident in the outcome. “No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom. There is no blame for participating in taking Lyanna, which argues that Lyanna was never dishonored, but more likely freely participated.

I wonder, what would the kingsguard at the Tower of Joy think if they saw Jon Snow at the Wall, as a member of the Night's Watch? I think they would be sad that Jon gave up his crown, his kingdom and his kingly vestments for a hard life as a guardian of the realms of men.

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I wonder, what would the kingsguard at the Tower of Joy think if they saw Jon Snow at the Wall, as a member of the Night's Watch? I think they would be sad that Jon gave up his crown, his kingdom and his kingly vestments for a hard life as a guardian of the realms of men.

What is a king, but a guardian of the realms of men, if he is a good king?

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What is a king, but a guardian of the realms of men, if he is a good king?

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

―The Night's Watch oath[src]

I know, but the fact that The Night's Watch forbids its men from bearing crowns, lands and wives, and takes no part in the quarrels of the realm, really shows how Jon Snow gave up all his birthrights to lead the men of the Night's watch.

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I'm just rereading ASOS, and I came across to little passages that I thought could be clues. I'm not sure wether they have been brought up before, I'll just post what I think :)



This bit is from one of the battles against the wildlings:




We should have twenty trebuchets, not two, and they shoudl be mounted on sledges and turntables so we could move them. It was a futile thought. He might as well wish for another thousand men, and maybe a dragon or three.



I don't know, maybe it's nothing, but I thought it very strange that Jon jumps to thinking of dragons here, especially of three dragons. It might be a nod to him being one of the heads of the dragon, or it could be foreshadowing of Dany coming to the wall with her three dragons. It just seemed odd to me that Jon, who does not know about Dany's dragons (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) would bring dragons as example. Of course, it could simply be a means to emphasis how far fetched this thoughts are :dunno:





Mance's son and Craster's would grow up as brothers, as I once did with Robb.



Here he considers taking Stannis offer of becoming lord of Winterfell. I think it notable that he thinks of two children who are, as far as we know, not related, as similar to him and Robb once, when he also believes Robb to be his halfbrother. Also, this statement echos what Ned once said, as we know through Bran and his weirwood net:





Let them grow up as brothers, with only love between them.



(Not sure about the exact quote, don't have ADWD here) In both cases there are two boys of the same age, give or take a few month, whose fathers were enemies (Ned and Rhaegar fought on different sides during the RR, Mance and Craster aren't exactly shown liking each other) who shall grow up to be brothers.



I don't know, maybe it's been said before, I just wanted to write it down :)


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Yes, but the vow Sam speaks to open the Black Gate has none of that "no crown, no wife" stuff.

"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

Now that? Sounds like the oath of a king to me...

I don't know that Jon will sit the IT or that there will even be an IT (I'd personally like to see him have his dragon melt the thing), but what really makes a great king is just that kind of thing that Jon has been learning.

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I know, but the fact that The Night's Watch forbids its men from bearing crowns, lands and wives, and takes no part in the quarrels of the realm, really shows how Jon Snow gave up all his birthrights to lead the men of the Night's watch.

He gave up his birthright and happiness for a higher duty, just like the KG did. I think they might approve.

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Yes, but the vow Sam speaks to open the Black Gate has none of that "no crown, no wife" stuff.

"I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

Now that? Sounds like the oath of a king to me...

I don't know that Jon will sit the IT or that there will even be an IT (I'd personally like to see him have his dragon melt the thing), but what really makes a great king is just that kind of thing that Jon has been learning.

Exactly my point. Also, if the only way to protect the realms of men is to become the king, Jon will regrettably be duty bound to do it.

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Isnt it time we have a shortcut for "if R + L = J is true, then..." ? Like ctrl + r or something, would make writing on these boards alpt easier.

It's actually pretty simple - we assume it's true, and hence don't bother writing it, most of the time :D

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...has no one ever thought that:

"And so it begins"/"no, so it ends" doesn't refer to that particular battle or the rebellion, but to Jon's reign? It might mean both of course, it's ambiguous enough.

At this point it seems futile to crown Jon, but perhaps the KG had a plan. It seems strange that they did not in fact leave the country with the heir to the throne. Granted Lyanna was apparently still alive when Ned found her, but...still. Towards her, they had no proper obligation, besides their own conscience and Rhaegar's memory.

And though this seems silly, Gerold Dayne did have a hand in the Myrcella plot and it would make for a nice parallel if Arthur Dayne and the remaining KG sought to make a last stand to reinstate a Targaryen on the throne. It might explain the disappearance of the mysterious Ashara, too, if say she had a mission to accomplish in Essos...(hire the Golden Company?) that'd be a nice twist.

The Daynes are a mysterious bunch, flying just below the radar of both Dorne and Westeros. I'm just wondering how they are involved in the story.

That's my interpretation of that line too, and I've debated it with MtnLion for half a dozen times already ;) Probably both are right interpretations.

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Exactly my point. Also, if the only way to protect the realms of men is to become the king, Jon will regrettably be duty bound to do it.

And Jon Snow would protest that he belongs with the Night's Watch, not on the throne. That's my thinking. Jon hates being the centre of attention, and he prefers to be in the background, than being a major player.

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And Jon Snow would protest that he belongs with the Night's Watch, not on the throne. That's my thinking. Jon hates being the centre of attention, and he prefers to be in the background, than being a major player.

No. That would be putting the letter of the law above its spirit. The core of the NW vow is to protect the realms of men; anything else is insubstantial. We have already seen Jon break the minor parts of the vow to keep the main one, and take a position of power out of duty. Becoming the king would be exactly the same scenario.

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Just to expand a little bit on a suggestion I made up thread concerning the possibility of foreshadowing in Jaime's description of the deaths of Rickard and Brandon at the hands of Aerys.

“There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys’s pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was… well, not burn.
“When the fire was blazing, Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were left free, though, and his longsword was set down just beyond his reach.

Under the right conditions, I could envision Dany putting Jon to a similar "test." She might well even consider it treason for Jon to state that he is Rhaegar's trueuborn son because it would nullify her own claim to the IT. After all, if I am the king and you say I am not the king, that's treason.

Remember what she thinks when Viserys dies: He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon. Now contrast that with her own experience in Drogo's funeral pyre, where she emerged as the Unburnt. Based on these experiences, and the possibility that Dany is on the road to becoming the Mad Queen, it might make narrative sense for her to give Jon the 'same test' that she and Viserys were subjected to.

Add to that the possible presence of a Brandon Stark in both scenarios. Which made some of the language used to describe the elder Brandon stand out to me. Particularly "chained," which could well be a reference to Bran as the winged wolf, and the part about his legs being left free.

It's not a slam dunk by any means, but those are some curious details. Two Brandon Starks, both "chained," and the bit about the legs. For example, if you were to capture Bran, you wouldn't exactly have to bind his legs. I wonder if there aren't a handful of references to Bran's legs being "left free," or something along those lines.

Maybe not the most clear cut analysis I've presented, but I thought it was worth a mention. It's not as if Dany giving Jon a baptism by fire is exactly a new idea either, so it might fit in with some already existing theories.

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“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks.

I'm still not seeing how Ned offers them a chance to leave here - to me it's like he's saying "I'm surprised to find you still here" rather than "I'm surprised to find you still here - why not run along now so we don't have to fight?" (Not that this has any bearing on my opinion of R+L=J because I'm totally on board with the theory as a whole, just not this part).

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Just to expand a little bit on a suggestion I made up thread concerning the possibility of foreshadowing in Jaime's description of the deaths of Rickard and Brandon at the hands of Aerys.

Under the right conditions, I could envision Dany putting Jon to a similar "test." She might well even consider it treason for Jon to state that he is Rhaegar's trueuborn son because it would nullify her own claim to the IT. After all, if I am the king and you say I am not the king, that's treason.

Remember what she thinks when Viserys dies: He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon. Now contrast that with her own experience in Drogo's funeral pyre, where she emerged as the Unburnt. Based on these experiences, and the possibility that Dany is on the road to becoming the Mad Queen, it might make narrative sense for her to give Jon the 'same test' that she and Viserys were subjected to.

Add to that the possible presence of a Brandon Stark in both scenarios. Which made some of the language used to describe the elder Brandon stand out to me. Particularly "chained," which could well be a reference to Bran as the winged wolf, and the part about his legs being left free.

It's not a slam dunk by any means, but those are some curious details. Two Brandon Starks, both "chained," and the bit about the legs. For example, if you were to capture Bran, you wouldn't exactly have to bind his legs. I wonder if there aren't a handful of references to Bran's legs being "left free," or something along those lines.

Maybe not the most clear cut analysis I've presented, but I thought it was worth a mention. It's not as if Dany giving Jon a baptism by fire is exactly a new idea either, so it might fit in with some already existing theories.

I'd laugh my arse off if the test was public and Dany decided to have Jon dracarysed - and Drogon would refuse to obey, instead performing some dragon equivalent of a friendly doggy lick (hopefully, without too much damage to Jon) :D

I'm still not seeing how Ned offers them a chance to leave here - to me it's like he's saying "I'm surprised to find you still here" rather than "I'm surprised to find you still here - why not run along now so we don't have to fight?" (Not that this has any bearing on my opinion of R+L=J because I'm totally on board with the theory as a whole, just not this part).

It is in collusion with the previous hint at surrender, when Ned mentions the Lords at Storms' End bending knee and they respond that their knees do not bend, as if they were given a choice. Add to it Ned's sadness at having to fight them and what we know about him in general, and it is only logical that he tried to negotiate. First he asked them to surrender, and when they refused, he offered them a honourable way out, to avoid the fight.

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That convo is definitely not what was actually being said; it's too condensed for normal speech, and if taken at a face value, the element of trying to persuade them to stand down is kinda missing. They make clear that they won't surrender, and the only other way to get an opponent to stand down is to offer them safe passage.



ETA: Add to it "we do not flee, then or now" - why speak about fleeing now if the option is not there?


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