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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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I don't know about that seeing as fire can burn Dany as she knows, but I don't know enough to dismiss such a possibility. I think the test would be something more along the lines of mounting one of her dragons without the dragonhorn. She says she was able to mount Drogon without the horn, and if Jon has blood of the dragon then he should be able to do the same. She will know what happened to Quentyn, and would expect the same to happen to Jon if he tries. King Arthur had to pull a sword from a stone, and the dragons have been referred to as swords. I think Jon's warging will come in handy in this test.

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I don't know about that seeing as fire can burn Dany as she knows, but I don't know enough to dismiss such a possibility. I think the test would be something more along the lines of mounting one of her dragons without the dragonhorn. She says she was able to mount Drogon without the horn, and if Jon has blood of the dragon then he should be able to do the same. She will know what happened to Quentyn, and would expect the same to happen to Jon if he tries. King Arthur had to pull a sword from a stone, and the dragons have been referred to as swords. I think Jon's warging will come in handy in this test.

I'm not so sure, after her last ADWD chapter, if she really knows that or not.

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I don't know about that seeing as fire can burn Dany as she knows, but I don't know enough to dismiss such a possibility. I think the test would be something more along the lines of mounting one of her dragons without the dragonhorn. She says she was able to mount Drogon without the horn, and if Jon has blood of the dragon then he should be able to do the same. She will know what happened to Quentyn, and would expect the same to happen to Jon if he tries. King Arthur had to pull a sword from a stone, and the dragons have been referred to as swords. I think Jon's warging will come in handy in this test.

You could be right. It might be that there's nothing there. It just seems like it contains the ingredients for some interesting foreshadowing. And then there is the verbal connection linking that scene with the ToJ.

I'm not sure if it's connected to what I am saying, but I am reminded of the following sections from AGoT, Bran VII:

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them. Maester Luwin yelled and threw up his hands. The torch went flying from his fingers, caromed off the stone face of Brandon Stark, and tumbled to the statue’s feet, the flames licking up his legs. In the drunken shifting torchlight, they saw Luwin struggling with the direwolf, beating at his muzzle with one hand while the jaws closed on the other.

Bran had never seen Maester Luwin took so uncertain before. Blood dripped down his arm where Shaggydog had shredded the wool of his sleeve and the flesh beneath. “Osha, the torch,” he said, biting through his pain, and she snatched it up before it went out. Soot stains blackened both legs of his uncle’s likeness. “That… that beast,” Luwin went on, “is supposed to be chained up in the kennels.”

There is a Bran-Brandon/legs connection here, so it's a possible tie in. Not to mention the "green fire" = wild fire. Otoh, it might just be foreshadowing the truth of what really happened to Rickard and Brandon in the Red Keep, and thereby also hinting that Bran doesn't know the truth of Lyanna's story either. Something along those lines.

That said, one line arguably hints at inter-dynastic conflict, which would tie in with the Dany-Jon idea I was suggesting:

Bran saw eyes like green fire, a flash of teeth, fur as black as the pit around them.

Green + black, like the DotD and the BotB. Though, the fact that it's Summer and Shaggy fighting would probably lead one to believe the symbolism here should be Bran vs. Rickon.

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Rhaegar married Elia in the sight of the Seven, so he could also have married Lyanna in the sight of the Old Gods. The best place for a secret wedding ceremony for them could be the Isle of Faces. If that happened, Jon would be a legitimate child, and he would have a claim for the Iron Throne.

If that turns out to be true, GRRM seems to like putting his characters in a position where their status is open to dispute, depending on who you ask. Jon's disputable claim goes right along with the disputable claims of Aegon, Daenerys, Joffrey, Tommen (or Myrcella), Renly and Stannis. All can make an argument based on blood or brute force, that they are the rightful king/queen. In the end, it's probably going to come down to who has the biggest army, most effective weapons, highest degree of persistence and purpose. That's how Aegon became ruler and started the Targaryen dynasty, and how Robert ended the dynasty and took the throne. All that may be moot if the seven kingdoms are in ruins after a civil war, long winter and Otherpocalypse. The Iron Throne could be a meaningless relic in a ravaged continent at the end of the book series.

Back to Jon... I think it may have been enough for the 3 Kingsguards remaining at the ToJ, that Rhaegar had married Lyanna Stark in a Northern rite (and the Targaryens' historical practice of polygamy) to accept that Jon was King, but they are dead. To other nobles who favor other claimants in the current war, Jon's legitimacy as a son of Rhaegar and as rightful heir would be questionable.

So, what happens at that point? Would Jon, trueborn (depending on who you ask) son of Rhaegar make a claim and enter the war to win the Iron Throne? I think that is unlikely, even if there were some who favored his claim. Jon seems focused on a mission to protect the realms of men from the Others. Jon may turn out to have the best claim of all, but if he's committed to the Night's Watch or the mission it serves - even if he's not a part of the NW anymore, he's going to have more important priorities than squabbling over rulership of the southern kingdoms. If he wants to rule anywhere, I agree with those who think he'd rule in the North. I just don't think that's his destiny.

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And Jon Snow would protest that he belongs with the Night's Watch, not on the throne. That's my thinking. Jon hates being the centre of attention, and he prefers to be in the background, than being a major player.

Huh? Everything Jon has been doing is very far from being in the background... and the NW would be who stabbed him and the entity he is largely at odds with for his very brazen and controversial decisions. He consistently makes himself a major player.... This post confuses me lol.

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Huh? Everything Jon has been doing is very far from being in the background... and the NW would be who stabbed him and the entity he is largely at odds with for his very brazen and controversial decisions. He consistently makes himself a major player.... This post confuses me lol.

What people (and characters!) prefer and what the reality of their situations are tend to be very different things. Aemon says to Jon in Dance that he thinks Jon will find no joy in command, which is absolutely correct. We never really see Jon happy that he's leading. He's usually somber and rarely experiences flashes of anger at Bowen and company. By the end of Storm, Jon's clearly someone who doesn't want to be in charge, but he isn't given the choice and since his wants no longer play in to it, he ends up doing what he must for the sake of the realm.

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I get that he's sad about having to fight them, but I still don't see him giving them one last opportunity to leave. Am I missing something? He doesn't say "I think you should sail off to join them" only that he thought they would have already done so.

Ned arrives and does these things:

  1. Lets them know that they are the only surviving Kingsguard

Checks on the up to date quality of their news

Lets them know that the war is over

Offers to accept their surrender

Offers to let them leave in peace and do other things

It is in the order of the conversation that lets us know that Ned is not offering news when he talks about Viserys on Dragonstone. Since the Kingsguard refused to surrender he is offering another way out of the current situation that avoids violence. In both cases, Ned is not making a demand, but offering an openning in the dialog that the Kingsguard refuse to take. On surrender they can ask about terms, the same is true about going to Viserys, they can ask about terms. The line we have from Ned is merely a talking point being offered.

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What people (and characters!) prefer and what the reality of their situations are tend to be very different things. Aemon says to Jon in Dance that he thinks Jon will find no joy in command, which is absolutely correct. We never really see Jon happy that he's leading. He's usually somber and rarely experiences flashes of anger at Bowen and company. By the end of Storm, Jon's clearly someone who doesn't want to be in charge, but he isn't given the choice and since his wants no longer play in to it, he ends up doing what he must for the sake of the realm.

True, I wouldnt say he is happy he is leading. But his actions are far from under the radar or "background". And he doesnt ever go with the flow he is extremely proactive in his choices. I think that could be the hidden fire beneath his icy demeanor. Maybe he isnt where he would rather be but he sure is making his presence very known, to all.

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I am a firm believer of the R+L=J theory. This is for two main reasons:


  1. The fact that Kingsguard were guarding the Tower of Joy. These knights are sworn to protect the king, and by extension, his family. Rhaegar having been killed at the Trident, Aerys murdered at King's Landing, Elia, along with Rhaenys and Aegon, slaughtered by Clegane,and Rhaella, Viserys and an unborn Daenerys at Dragonstone, it falls to the remaining Kingsguard to protect King Viserys Targaryen... unless he's not king. Rhaegar and Lyanna are honourable and would not have a bastard, but at the same time, they did love each other. It follows thus, then: Rhaegar marries Lyanna, has a child with her, who upon Rhaegar and Aegon's death... becomes the king.
  2. Wylla and Ashara. Eddard names Wylla as the mother of Jon Snow. Everyone in Winterfell seems to believe it is Ashara. Ser Barristan later recalls that Ashara gave birth to a daughter, negating her. And now, Edric Dayne reveals that he is the milk-brother of Jon Snow, having been weaned by Wylla the wetnurse. Eddard, therefore, is not lying: Wylla is in fact Jon's milk-mother. But why would that be? ...Oh, obviously, his mother died at the Tower of Joy.

Now, the Daynes start to get stuff messy.




He would have killed me but for Howland Reed.



Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, a finer knight than anyone else in the realm, who could have defeated Loras Tyrell and four other knights of the Kingsguard with his left hand while taking a piss with his right, the mentor of the mighty Ser Jaime Lannister... was defeated by Howland Reed? Please, Eddard may have been one of the greatest warriors of the realm, but Arthur Dayne was the best. How does a crannogman who was beaten up by three little squires manage to hold off or hinder the finest knight of the realm? He doesn't. Something is fishy here. My conclusion: Howland Reed told him something. Something completely stupefying, flabbergasting, and stunning...


like the fact the he was married to Arthur's sister.


He was watching her the whole time at the Harrenhal Tourney, and he made a list of who she danced with. Talk about an obsessive lover?


Why would the Daynes continue to trust Wylla to nurse Edric, when she already nursed Jon, the son of a Stark? Maybe because Lord Stark never actually killed the Sword of the Morning. Maybe because Lady Dayne was married to his bannerman. Barristan recalls a daughter, and believes she was stillborn, but if the daughter had in fact lived, she would be the right age to be Meera. She was 'dishonoured' at Harrenhal, Barristan believes... but maybe Howland and Ashara were married anyway. That explains a number of things:


  1. The Suicide. Ashara had to fake a death if she was to go North with her husband.
  2. Jojen's greywater fever. With the crannogmen living in the neck for centuries, they should have grown resistant to greywater fever by now, but Jojen, of course, is part Dayne.
  3. It gives Arthur Dayne a place to be. Arthur needs to protect King Jon Targaryen, and he can't do that from all the way south. So he comes North with his sister and remains in Greywater Watch, riding back and forth between there and Winterfell whenever he wishes to check up on the King. Greywater Watch moves, so no ravens. What was so important that messages were being exchanged all the time by rider? No crannogman ever came to Winterfell. What were Ned, Howland, Arthur and Ashara talking about?

What do you guys think? Any points I've missed out? Any controversies?


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Ned doesn't say that Howland defeated Arthur single-handedly but that he somewhat intervened on Ned's behalf. It could have been verbal, it could have been a tackle, practically any kind of distraction would do. My favourite is that he partly immobilized Arthur with the fishing net :-)


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I am a firm believer of the R+L=J theory. This is for two main reasons:

  • The fact that Kingsguard were guarding the Tower of Joy. These knights are sworn to protect the king, and by extension, his family. Rhaegar having been killed at the Trident, Aerys murdered at King's Landing, Elia, along with Rhaenys and Aegon, slaughtered by Clegane,and Rhaella, Viserys and an unborn Daenerys at Dragonstone, it falls to the remaining Kingsguard to protect King Viserys Targaryen... unless he's not king. Rhaegar and Lyanna are honourable and would not have a bastard, but at the same time, they did love each other. It follows thus, then: Rhaegar marries Lyanna, has a child with her, who upon Rhaegar and Aegon's death... becomes the king.
  • Wylla and Ashara. Eddard names Wylla as the mother of Jon Snow. Everyone in Winterfell seems to believe it is Ashara. Ser Barristan later recalls that Ashara gave birth to a daughter, negating her. And now, Edric Dayne reveals that he is the milk-brother of Jon Snow, having been weaned by Wylla the wetnurse. Eddard, therefore, is not lying: Wylla is in fact Jon's milk-mother. But why would that be? ...Oh, obviously, his mother died at the Tower of Joy.
Now, the Daynes start to get stuff messy.

Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, a finer knight than anyone else in the realm, who could have defeated Loras Tyrell and four other knights of the Kingsguard with his left hand while taking a piss with his right, the mentor of the mighty Ser Jaime Lannister... was defeated by Howland Reed? Please, Eddard may have been one of the greatest warriors of the realm, but Arthur Dayne was the best. How does a crannogman who was beaten up by three little squires manage to hold off or hinder the finest knight of the realm? He doesn't. Something is fishy here. My conclusion: Howland Reed told him something. Something completely stupefying, flabbergasting, and stunning...

like the fact the he was married to Arthur's sister.

He was watching her the whole time at the Harrenhal Tourney, and he made a list of who she danced with. Talk about an obsessive lover?

Why would the Daynes continue to trust Wylla to nurse Edric, when she already nursed Jon, the son of a Stark? Maybe because Lord Stark never actually killed the Sword of the Morning. Maybe because Lady Dayne was married to his bannerman. Barristan recalls a daughter, and believes she was stillborn, but if the daughter had in fact lived, she would be the right age to be Meera. She was 'dishonoured' at Harrenhal, Barristan believes... but maybe Howland and Ashara were married anyway. That explains a number of things:

  • The Suicide. Ashara had to fake a death if she was to go North with her husband.
  • Jojen's greywater fever. With the crannogmen living in the neck for centuries, they should have grown resistant to greywater fever by now, but Jojen, of course, is part Dayne.
  • It gives Arthur Dayne a place to be. Arthur needs to protect King Jon Targaryen, and he can't do that from all the way south. So he comes North with his sister and remains in Greywater Watch, riding back and forth between there and Winterfell whenever he wishes to check up on the King. Greywater Watch moves, so no ravens. What was so important that messages were being exchanged all the time by rider? No crannogman ever came to Winterfell. What were Ned, Howland, Arthur and Ashara talking about?
What do you guys think? Any points I've missed out? Any controversies?

A interesting twist on the ToJ scenario. If Arthur found out Ashara Dayne was married to Howland Reed he would be stupefied, and he realized that he would be more useful to his king if he were to stay undercover in Greywatch Watch, with the occasional forays to Winterfell to check on Jon's well being.

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Im logged in from my phone and not sure if im supposed to put something specific at the beginning of this thread. I apologize in advance. Im a huge westeros.org lurker, usually reading the topics off the homepage to get my westeros fix. Im so greatful for the conversation, even if I only enjoy it passively.

Im a big R+L =J believer. I find myself scrounging for anything that I feel lcould be a hidden scrap of information.

Something that caught my ear from a re read, that I cannot shake. I have a inkling that something was yanked during editing.

During Neds review of parentage while playing PI Iin GOT, I found a huge issue with what goes through Neds mind. He discovers, what I assume is the closest thing to a paternaty test westeros has to offer. (They have the morning after pill!) He learns genetically that Dark hair Plus Blonde equals Dark hair.

In my heart if R+L=J, wouldnt one of the first examples that came to his mind be his sister, her blonde lover, and her dark haired child? At the very least hear a whisper in his mind from her.. and he hides it from himself becuase it hurts too much to think about? That situation would surely make him think of his beloved sister. I feel like there is something missing there. A missing sentence or reference that was deemed too obvious and removed. Thoughts? Thanks again for everything you guys are on here.

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Im logged in from my phone and not sure if im supposed to put something specific at the beginning of this thread. I apologize in advance. Im a huge westeros.org lurker, usually reading the topics off the homepage to get my westeros fix. Im so greatful for the conversation, even if I only enjoy it passively.

Im a big R+L =J believer. I find myself scrounging for anything that I feel lcould be a hidden scrap of information.

Something that caught my ear from a re read, that I cannot shake. I have a inkling that something was yanked during editing.

During Neds review of parentage while playing PI Iin GOT, I found a huge issue with what goes through Neds mind. He discovers, what I assume is the closest thing to a paternaty test westeros has to offer. (They have the morning after pill!) He learns genetically that Dark hair Plus Blonde equals Dark hair.

In my heart if R+L=J, wouldnt one of the first examples that came to his mind be his sister, her blonde lover, and her dark haired child? At the very least hear a whisper in his mind from her.. and he hides it from himself becuase it hurts too much to think about? That situation would surely make him think of his beloved sister. I feel like there is something missing there. A missing sentence or reference that was deemed too obvious and removed. Thoughts? Thanks again for everything you guys are on here.

Quite possible - it would have been a great giveaway.

On the other hand, it is still one those clues for the readers - the argument "Jon-does-not-look-like-a-Targ" comes up way too often and this is yet another point to shoot it down.

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