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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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If polygamy was still legal (although not frequently practised) for the Targs then why all this cloak & dagger stuff? Why didnt Rhaegar just marry Lyanna? Also, if Lyanna went with him willingly why not inform your own family about this especially since GRRM keeps emphasizing how high the Starks place things like honour & family & stuff? A lot of bloodshed could have been prevented. Maybe Ned could have convinced Robert to forget Lyanna entirely.

And if polygamy was illegal, well the same question about Lyanna. Didnt she think it would bring dishonour on her & her family if she ran off with Rhaegar? Also, the fact that her children will be bastards.

While Ned seems to be the one person who can get through to the notoriously stubborn Robert, I seriously doubt he could have made him forget Lyanna. Remember this is the guy who, after being married for 15 or so years to Cersei Lannister, immediately asks to go down to the Stark crypts to pay his respects to Lyanna upon arriving at Winterfell. He was infatuated with her, even if the feelings weren't reciprocated. Additionally, there's also the fact that Robert hasn't given up trying to extinguish the Targaryen line in seeking revenge for "what Rhaegar did to Lyanna."

Im logged in from my phone and not sure if im supposed to put something specific at the beginning of this thread. I apologize in advance. Im a huge westeros.org lurker, usually reading the topics off the homepage to get my westeros fix. Im so greatful for the conversation, even if I only enjoy it passively.

Im a big R+L =J believer. I find myself scrounging for anything that I feel lcould be a hidden scrap of information.

Something that caught my ear from a re read, that I cannot shake. I have a inkling that something was yanked during editing.

During Neds review of parentage while playing PI Iin GOT, I found a huge issue with what goes through Neds mind. He discovers, what I assume is the closest thing to a paternaty test westeros has to offer. (They have the morning after pill!) He learns genetically that Dark hair Plus Blonde equals Dark hair.

In my heart if R+L=J, wouldnt one of the first examples that came to his mind be his sister, her blonde lover, and her dark haired child? At the very least hear a whisper in his mind from her.. and he hides it from himself becuase it hurts too much to think about? That situation would surely make him think of his beloved sister. I feel like there is something missing there. A missing sentence or reference that was deemed too obvious and removed. Thoughts? Thanks again for everything you guys are on here.

This may just be me, but I was under the impression that what Stannis, Jon Arryn, and Ned learned was that the Baratheon dark hair was a dominant trait. We know for a fact that the Stark hair isn't dominant because both Sansa and Robb are redheaded like Catelyn. So I don't necessarily think that Ned would have reflected back upon Jon, who has dark hair, being the son of Rhaegar (silver hair) and Lyanna (dark hair) and coming to the conclusion that dark hair is a dominant trait.

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This may just be me, but I was under the impression that what Stannis, Jon Arryn, and Ned learned was that the Baratheon dark hair was a dominant trait. We know for a fact that the Stark hair isn't dominant because both Sansa and Robb are redheaded like Catelyn. So I don't necessarily think that Ned would have reflected back upon Jon, who has dark hair, being the son of Rhaegar (silver hair) and Lyanna (dark hair) and coming to the conclusion that dark hair is a dominant trait.

What about Arya, Bran and Rickon ?

And well, if Martin is going by actual genetics, then it doesn't work that way, dark hair is dominant, light hair is recessive.

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What about Arya, Bran and Rickon ?

And well, if Martin is going by actual genetics, then it doesn't work that way, dark hair is dominant, light hair is recessive.

Sorry, should've been more specific than just "dominant." I thought from my reading that any child of Robert's would be born with dark hair, regardless of the mother, which is obviously how Ned deduced that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen weren't Robert's. The Stark kids are more examples of the fact that dark hair itself isn't an automatically, 100% dominant trait in Westeros, as evidenced by the fact that Ned and Catelyn have children with dark hair as well as red hair.

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Or the smoke appeared just because of the cold? Hot blood and flesh will produce smoke if exposed to low temperatures ....[/quote

This is a fantasy novel written by GRRM. All the prophecies and mysteries make it so even innocent descriptive tetms have potential power and symbolism existing there. That is what makes this different than a textbook description of a medical scenario...there are secrets hidden in every page and it is always the little things that are easily missed because they could be "typical and scientifically explained". Those sprcif]

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Or the smoke appeared just because of the cold? Hot blood and flesh will produce smoke if exposed to low temperatures ....

This is a fantasy novel written by GRRM. All the prophecies and mysteries make it so even innocent descriptive tetms have potential power and symbolism existing there. That is what makes this different than a textbook description of a medical scenario...there are secrets hidden in every page and it is always the little things that are easily missed because they could be "typical and scientifically explained". Those specific adjectives used were thematic and carefully chosen... Especially with who it happened to, where and how as well. Its all relevant.]

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So I have another question; if Jon ever wargs into Ghost after his stabbing, will he gain some wolfish aspects?

"I fear no ghosts. Dragons are more powerful than ghosts."

Besides, BR will be there to help Jon, and show him a few things.

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So I have another question; if Jon ever wargs into Ghost after his stabbing, will he gain some wolfish aspects?

I thought wargs that stayed too long in the animal could get lost.

If Jon indeed warged into Ghost..................he's screwed.................I would love it though, he lives the rest of his life as a wild direwolf, forgetting who he ever was little by little, until oblivion consumes him and then there's nothing but the instinct.

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A little addendum to this colourful analysis, courtesy of Viserion:

And more:

The fiery palette connects thus not only Rhaegar to Jon but both to fire and blood, dragon's blood or better... blood of the dragon.

If these passages are also foreshadowing of Jon bonding/warging with Viserion I cannot say. I used to be partial to Rhaegal for a certain number of reasons but J. Stargaryen's Emeralds thread and the Blacks/Greens conflict in TPatQ gave me pause. A white dragon ridden/warged by a black knight. Seems fitting.

Talking of TPatQ and dragons... I'm glad to be in the lucky part of the world that got the short novel in advance :)

A dragon in the novel has a peculiar name btw:

Grey... Ghost

I'll add to that:

The trees [of the kingswood] are gowned in gold and red and orange

The first quote is Margaery's description of the kingswood.

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So I have another question; if Jon ever wargs into Ghost after his stabbing, will he gain some wolfish aspects?

I find so many similar themes in aSoIaF and "Dune," so if I had to predict the future, I might look to Frank Herbert, a writer who influenced many who came after him, including George Lucas.

In "Dune," Pauls Atreides son, Leto eventually morphs into the sacred creature of Dune to become it's "God Emperor." I speculate that if Jon ever wargs into a dragon, it releases both man and dragon from subjugation, and they become one.

Jon may be able to come back, or he may not. Or, perhaps the wolf part of him prevents him from being lost, the same way I suspect it will prevent Arya from being lost.

Misc.:

- Letos father, Paul Muadib in his prescient visions had expected a girl, which he did get in his daughter Ghanima, but had not expected her twin brother, Leto. Leto who was named for his elder brother, Leto the Elder who had been murdered in his infancy, the same way Jons brother Aegon was murdered.

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Oh God! Leto Atreides, I should have seen this sooner. Oh no, I don't want Jon tu turn into something like that. I don't want him to become more feral and wolflike! I don't want his ethics and moral compass to get skewed. I know many Jon haters would like that and I have no doubt GRRM will write it beautfully, but I like Jon just the way he is. *sigh*


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Oh God! Leto Atreides, I should have seen this sooner. Oh no, I don't want Jon tu turn into something like that. I don't want him to become more feral and wolflike! I don't want his ethics and moral compass to get skewed. I know many Jon haters would like that and I have no doubt GRRM will write it beautfully, but I like Jon just the way he is. *sigh*

I don't want that, either - but I can perfectly see GRRM have Jon commit something against his moral compass in the name of a greater good - something along the line of "some must be sacrificed for everyone to be saved".

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I don't want that, either - but I can perfectly see GRRM have Jon commit something against his moral compass in the name of a greater good - something along the line of "some must be sacrificed for everyone to be saved".

I also see it and I can process just that, but I see potential for a far worse scenario. One where Jon's complete world is shattered to pieces. He is betrayed and murdered by his brothers, big part of his family were brutally murdered by the worst scum humanity has to offer. His father is not his father at all. His identity as Ned Stark's son is destroyed. What is left for him to fight for? For who? Humanity is depraved and murderous and maybe the White Walkers aren't that evil after all? So Jon, who is so far one of few POV's that truly champions good could spiral on a road to become an antagonist. Of course there are other creative juices here to explore and I don't believe that GRRM would actually turn him into the big baddie, but it could happen.

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Oh God! Leto Atreides, I should have seen this sooner. Oh no, I don't want Jon tu turn into something like that. I don't want him to become more feral and wolflike! I don't want his ethics and moral compass to get skewed. I know many Jon haters would like that and I have no doubt GRRM will write it beautfully, but I like Jon just the way he is. *sigh*

I LOVE Jon, but his tragedy is, (if he does take the IT), that there are certain realities when it comes to rule. Frank Herbert himself said there is an "art to ruling," and all the wisdom and justice in the world makes no difference if one doesn't know how to achieve those balances.

When does mercy become foolhardy and translates into weakness?

But, when does the pursuit of justice, honor, and peace become tyranny if not tempered with common sense and mercy?

The Starks have been called "harsh," even as Ned recalled his own ancestors. Perhaps the Starks could have learned a few things on cunning and patience from the Martells.

It might have been honorable for Rhaegar to fight Robert on an open battlefield for Lyanna, but how much better might it have been if in the very beginning he had just arranged to send his cousin on a mission that he wouldn't return from?

The point is, you can be a good person and have all the best intentions in the world, but there certain realities you can't escape, and that is human nature.

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Hmmm... nice post, nicely worded but as I said harsh justice is not my main concern, though we already have Stannis for that and don't need another king to enforce it. I'd rather have Jon prove to everyone that every life is sacred and that it can be saved. What I'm concerned about is that all the clamoring from some fans about how GRRM likes to turn things on its head and how everything has to be subverted in ASOIAF may come to be true. The saga currently lacks a clear cut leader of the main threat to humanity, the White Walkers, and by turning Jon into an antagonist GRRM gets a well developed character to carry the role, and as I said with all that has happened to him and with his identity as Ned's son shattered the change wouldn't be out of the blue. The tragedy of it all alone is something right up in GRRM's alley.


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"I fear no ghosts. Dragons are more powerful than ghosts."

Interesting how the (totemic) animals of two characters sitting at the opposite ends of the ASoIaF spectrum are a Ghost and a 'shadow'...

I'll add to that:

The trees [of the kingswood] are gowned in gold and red and orange

The first quote is Margaery's description of the kingswood.

This is too good :)

Stannis drew the blade he called Lightbringer. "Here is your sword in the darkness." Light rippled up and down the blade, now red, now yellow, now orange, painting the king's face in harsh, bright hues.

Which king btw? ;)

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. [...] The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

Definitely LOL

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