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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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Hmmm... nice post, nicely worded but as I said harsh justice is not my main concern, though we already have Stannis for that and don't need another king to enforce it. I'd rather have Jon prove to everyone that every life is sacred and that it can be saved. What I'm concerned about is that all the clamoring from some fans about how GRRM likes to turn things on its head and how everything has to be subverted in ASOIAF may come to be true. The saga currently lacks a clear cut leader of the main threat to humanity, the White Walkers, and by turning Jon into an antagonist GRRM gets a well developed character to carry the role, and as I said with all that has happened to him and with his identity as Ned's son shattered the change wouldn't be out of the blue. The tragedy of it all alone is something right up in GRRM's alley.

Hopefully Martin is guided by the instinct to tell a good, but realistic story, and not guided by the current tendency to upset so-called clichés for the sake of "edgy."

If Robert had been the kind of man to understand the necessity of balance, he would have sent Elia back to Dorne, or married her to a supporter, taking the children, Aegon and Rhaneys and betrothing them to Myrcella and Joffrey.

Robert had clearly showed himself to be the victor, and whether there would be those who would always consider him a usurper, taking control of the situation himself, controlling the direction of Rhaegars children would have been the wiser course than being perceived as signing off on their murder.

Thus far, it seems that Jon understands the nuances, particularly in taking in the Wildlings, but it's how he deals with those who hate the Wildlings and that kind of inclusion that will determine his strength.

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Hopefully Martin is guided by the instinct to tell a good, but realistic story, and not guided by the current tendency to upset so-called clichés for the sake of "edgy."

I hate to be the Devil's advocate but, a realistic and good story can be told even if Jon becomes the big baddie. GRRM likes to kill his prophecies and the biggest prophecy of his books concern a messianic figure who will save the world... and his will be the song of ice and fire! What would be the ultimate foil to the ancient prophecy then to turn its protagonist into a full blown antagonist! And it's not unprecedented if Darth Vader has anything to say about it. If we go by SSM's, there won't be some Great Other leading the armies of the dead. Turning Jon into Night King or whatever gives him such a figure. It's not to my liking but its an option to him nonetheless. And thinking about it, it actually seems possible to happen. Do the heresy folk have similar beliefs? Maybe a corrupt man whose soul is not completely black ends up saving the day (Jaime comes to mind, or Tyrion), or Jon goes full Vader in the very end when Needle pierces through the ice around his heart? Would such writing be edgy? I guess. Would it endure the test of time though? Possibly.

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I hate to be the Devil's advocate but, a realistic and good story can be told even if Jon becomes the big baddie. GRRM likes to kill his prophecies and the biggest prophecy of his books concern a messianic figure who will save the world... and his will be the song of ice and fire! What would be the ultimate foil to the ancient prophecy then to turn its protagonist into a full blown antagonist! And it's not unprecedented if Darth Vader has anything to say about it. If we go by SSM's, there won't be some Great Other leading the armies of the dead. Turning Jon into Night King or whatever gives him such a figure. It's not to my liking but its an option to him nonetheless. And thinking about it, it actually seems possible to happen. Do the heresy folk have similar beliefs? Maybe a corrupt man whose soul is not completely black ends up saving the day (Jaime comes to mind, or Tyrion), or Jon goes full Vader in the very end when Needle pierces through the ice around his heart? Would such writing be edgy? I guess. Would it endure the test of time though? Possibly.

Though this does not occupy the top spot on my list of possible outcomes, I do consider it to be a plausible scenario.

There's probably already enough to build a solid theory around his name alone; Jon Snow, as in winter, ice, death, etc. There is also the blue rose symbolism, which could work in favor of this idea as well.

A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
- AGoT, Eddard X (Tower of Joy)

There's more, obviously, but I think that's already a decent start.

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Though this does not occupy the top spot on my list of possible outcomes, I do consider it to be a plausible scenario.

There's probably already enough to build a solid theory around his name alone; Jon Snow, as in winter, ice, death, etc. There is also the blue rose symbolism, which could work in favor of this idea as well.

- AGoT, Eddard X (Tower of Joy)

There's more, obviously, but I think that's already a decent start.

Not to mention that the whole AAR prophecy may not be what it seems - the AAR may not be the good guy. At. All. The fact that he is the chosen instrument of R'hllor whose motives and alignment are unknown and means not exactly those you would expect of a good guy, makes the whole AAR issue rather suspicious, IMHO.

That comparison between the rose petals and eyes of death is also rather chilling - it might work solely on the R+L level, linking Lyanna's death with her love for Rhaegar and Jon, as well as on a broader scale of the connection to the Others. However, there is one question: Did Ned know that the Others had blue eyes? Did any on Old Nan's tales include the detail? And, even if it did, why speak of blue eyes of death? Why would Ned use the imagery of something he doesn't believe in as a representation of death? Do we have any other reference to such imagery? I can't recall any.

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Not to mention that the whole AAR prophecy may not be what it seems - the AAR may not be the good guy. At. All. The fact that he is the chosen instrument of R'hllor whose motives and alignment are unknown and means not exactly those you would expect of a good guy, makes the whole AAR issue rather suspicious, IMHO.

That comparison between the rose petals and eyes of death is also rather chilling - it might work solely on the R+L level, linking Lyanna's death with her love for Rhaegar and Jon, as well as on a broader scale of the connection to the Others. However, there is one question: Did Ned know that the Others had blue eyes? Did any on Old Nan's tales include the detail? And, even if it did, why speak of blue eyes of death? Why would Ned use the imagery of something he doesn't believe in as a representation of death? Do we have any other reference to such imagery? I can't recall any.

I think there are theories that the starks actually have "others blood" thats why there must always be a stark in winterfell.

I think the theory goes that Bran the builder was actually the NK and thats why his name was rubbed from history or something like that.

It would explain why the starks produce alot of wargs, meaning they have magic in their blood.

That could explain why some of them have blue eyes like Benjen.

The stark words are even telling of them having a dark past "winter is coming" and we all know "the others bring winter"

I hope the WOIAF gives us more info on the history of the starks.

I also agree with you on AAR, they want to bring a long summer which is not a completely good thing thats why I think AAR and TPTWP are 2 different things and AAR is actually Dany.

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I hate to be the Devil's advocate but, a realistic and good story can be told even if Jon becomes the big baddie. GRRM likes to kill his prophecies and the biggest prophecy of his books concern a messianic figure who will save the world... and his will be the song of ice and fire! What would be the ultimate foil to the ancient prophecy then to turn its protagonist into a full blown antagonist! And it's not unprecedented if Darth Vader has anything to say about it. If we go by SSM's, there won't be some Great Other leading the armies of the dead. Turning Jon into Night King or whatever gives him such a figure. It's not to my liking but its an option to him nonetheless. And thinking about it, it actually seems possible to happen. Do the heresy folk have similar beliefs? Maybe a corrupt man whose soul is not completely black ends up saving the day (Jaime comes to mind, or Tyrion), or Jon goes full Vader in the very end when Needle pierces through the ice around his heart? Would such writing be edgy? I guess. Would it endure the test of time though? Possibly.

I think prophecies/prophetic dreams&visions are a bit too reliable in ASoIaF to assume its author is definitely out for the kill. True, they follow twisted paths on symbolically shaped legs, but at the end of the day most of them come true. Daenys the Dreamer 's comes to mind. Daeron the Drunken's, Daemon II Blackfyre's, the Ghost of High Heart's, Jocen's, Moqorro's and even Melisandre's with all her misreadings. Most of the visions of the HoTU are accurate. Bran's as well. Not to forget that some are still 'in progress'. I'd therefore suspend judgement on the 'biggest' of them. Irony could be at work there, I agree. Or maybe not...

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Not to mention that the whole AAR prophecy may not be what it seems - the AAR may not be the good guy. At. All. The fact that he is the chosen instrument of R'hllor whose motives and alignment are unknown and means not exactly those you would expect of a good guy, makes the whole AAR issue rather suspicious, IMHO.

That comparison between the rose petals and eyes of death is also rather chilling - it might work solely on the R+L level, linking Lyanna's death with her love for Rhaegar and Jon, as well as on a broader scale of the connection to the Others. However, there is one question: Did Ned know that the Others had blue eyes? Did any on Old Nan's tales include the detail? And, even if it did, why speak of blue eyes of death? Why would Ned use the imagery of something he doesn't believe in as a representation of death? Do we have any other reference to such imagery? I can't recall any.

I don't think that contemporary Westerosi knew about the eyes of the Others and wights. From AGoT:

Jon remembered Othor; he had been the one bellowing the bawdy song as the rangers rode out. His singing days were done. His flesh was blanched white as milk, everywhere but his hands. His hands were black like Jafer’s. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.

“Symeon Star-Eyes,” Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. “When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes.” The maester tsked. “You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart.”

No one seems to understand the significance of the sapphire-blue eyes.

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No one seems to understand the significance of the sapphire-blue eyes.

There might be some notion still persisting, though - as the bodies of Othor and Jafers are discovered and the NW brothers realize that there is something unnatural about them, someone suggests to burn them. - Of course, it is also possible that the idea comes from the knowledge of the Wildling customs, but the impression I got from the scene was that someone indeed remembered an old tale or two - as if someone from our age recognized a vampire on the basis of our tales.

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There might be some notion still persisting, though - as the bodies of Othor and Jafers are discovered and the NW brothers realize that there is something unnatural about them, someone suggests to burn them. - Of course, it is also possible that the idea comes from the knowledge of the Wildling customs, but the impression I got from the scene was that someone indeed remembered an old tale or two - as if someone from our age recognized a vampire on the basis of our tales.

Well, at first Sam points out that they're not rotting, which is suspicious. And then Dywen and Ser Jaremy notice that the corpses have blue eyes now, though they didn't in life. So, they know something is not right here but still, no one makes the connection to Others and/or wights.

That is to say, they might have some vague idea about wights, but the sapphire-blue eyes aren't ringing any bells for anyone.

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Hey all, just stopping by to say hi! I've been really busy as of late, but the holidays have given me a nice break from all the work and I can finally get back to chatting with you guys on here consistently! I just want to say I'm loving what you guys have been discussing in my absence, really good stuff guys! I especially like the possibilty of Jamie being the one to connect the R+L=J dots. We know GRRM seems to be giving Jamie somewhat of a redemption arc, and we also know that Jamie does feel extreme guilt for the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children, he failed the father(Rhaegar), maybe helping the son(Jon) will be part of his redemption?



Also to Ygrain, Alia, and Lady G, I remember a while ago we were dicussing any possible precedence of Targ women participating in poly marriage other than Aegon l's sister wives, and I remember we were discussing Rhaenyra Targaryen as a possible candidate because we do know she married more than once, well I think GRRM's new novella "The Princess and the Queen" oficially out on dec 3, might be able to finally give us some answers on the matter! :)


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Jon Icefyre!!! Welcome back-- We've missed your input! :D

I for one can't wait until December 3-- I've got the ebook parked on my nook and plan to start reading at midnight. I think our very own FF3 might be one of the lucky ones who was able to get TPatQ early and could possibly shed some light on that for us? Tbh, I've been looking forward to it sooo much I'm avoiding all the spoiler threads.

I like the Jaime line of thinking too, fwiw.

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Jon Icefyre!!! Welcome back-- We've missed your input! :D

I for one can't wait until December 3-- I've got the ebook parked on my nook and plan to start reading at midnight. I think our very own FF3 might be one of the lucky ones who was able to get TPatQ early and could possibly shed some light on that for us? Tbh, I've been looking forward to it sooo much I'm avoiding all the spoiler threads.

I like the Jaime line of thinking too, fwiw.

Same here :cheers:

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Jon Icefyre!!! Welcome back-- We've missed your input! :D

I for one can't wait until December 3-- I've got the ebook parked on my nook and plan to start reading at midnight. I think our very own FF3 might be one of the lucky ones who was able to get TPatQ early and could possibly shed some light on that for us? Tbh, I've been looking forward to it sooo much I'm avoiding all the spoiler threads.

I like the Jaime line of thinking too, fwiw.

:agree: Thanks, it feels good to be back! I'm trying to avoid the spoilers too!!

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Hey all, just stopping by to say hi! I've been really busy as of late, but the holidays have given me a nice break from all the work and I can finally get back to chatting with you guys on here consistently! I just want to say I'm loving what you guys have been discussing in my absence, really good stuff guys! I especially like the possibilty of Jamie being the one to connect the R+L=J dots. We know GRRM seems to be giving Jamie somewhat of a redemption arc, and we also know that Jamie does feel extreme guilt for the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children, he failed the father(Rhaegar), maybe helping the son(Jon) will be part of his redemption?

Also to Ygrain, Alia, and Lady G, I remember a while ago we were dicussing any possible precedence of Targ women participating in poly marriage other than Aegon l's sister wives, and I remember we were discussing Rhaenyra Targaryen as a possible candidate because we do know she married more than once, well I think GRRM's new novella "The Princess and the Queen" oficially out on dec 3, might be able to finally give us some answers on the matter! :)

WELCOME BACK:)

(And go Bears)

Will the new novella be a stand-alone, or amongst other short stories?

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Hey all, just stopping by to say hi! I've been really busy as of late, but the holidays have given me a nice break from all the work and I can finally get back to chatting with you guys on here consistently! I just want to say I'm loving what you guys have been discussing in my absence, really good stuff guys! I especially like the possibilty of Jamie being the one to connect the R+L=J dots. We know GRRM seems to be giving Jamie somewhat of a redemption arc, and we also know that Jamie does feel extreme guilt for the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children, he failed the father(Rhaegar), maybe helping the son(Jon) will be part of his redemption?

Also to Ygrain, Alia, and Lady G, I remember a while ago we were dicussing any possible precedence of Targ women participating in poly marriage other than Aegon l's sister wives, and I remember we were discussing Rhaenyra Targaryen as a possible candidate because we do know she married more than once, well I think GRRM's new novella "The Princess and the Queen" oficially out on dec 3, might be able to finally give us some answers on the matter! :)

Welcome back!

I browsed the spoiler thread the other day and

frp, what I gather, polygamy doesn't seem to be the case, there would be an uproar about it. I guess that at this stage, it would be a great giveaway that there is something going on including polygamy

Well, at first Sam points out that they're not rotting, which is suspicious. And then Dywen and Ser Jaremy notice that the corpses have blue eyes now, though they didn't in life. So, they know something is not right here but still, no one makes the connection to Others and/or wights.

That is to say, they might have some vague idea about wights, but the sapphire-blue eyes aren't ringing any bells for anyone.

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I hate to be the Devil's advocate but, a realistic and good story can be told even if Jon becomes the big baddie. GRRM likes to kill his prophecies and the biggest prophecy of his books concern a messianic figure who will save the world... and his will be the song of ice and fire! What would be the ultimate foil to the ancient prophecy then to turn its protagonist into a full blown antagonist! And it's not unprecedented if Darth Vader has anything to say about it. If we go by SSM's, there won't be some Great Other leading the armies of the dead. Turning Jon into Night King or whatever gives him such a figure. It's not to my liking but its an option to him nonetheless. And thinking about it, it actually seems possible to happen. Do the heresy folk have similar beliefs? Maybe a corrupt man whose soul is not completely black ends up saving the day (Jaime comes to mind, or Tyrion), or Jon goes full Vader in the very end when Needle pierces through the ice around his heart? Would such writing be edgy? I guess. Would it endure the test of time though? Possibly.

Not to mention that the whole AAR prophecy may not be what it seems - the AAR may not be the good guy. At. All. The fact that he is the chosen instrument of R'hllor whose motives and alignment are unknown and means not exactly those you would expect of a good guy, makes the whole AAR issue rather suspicious, IMHO.

That comparison between the rose petals and eyes of death is also rather chilling - it might work solely on the R+L level, linking Lyanna's death with her love for Rhaegar and Jon, as well as on a broader scale of the connection to the Others. However, there is one question: Did Ned know that the Others had blue eyes? Did any on Old Nan's tales include the detail? And, even if it did, why speak of blue eyes of death? Why would Ned use the imagery of something he doesn't believe in as a representation of death? Do we have any other reference to such imagery? I can't recall any.

Well, I've always presumed that Jon would be the hero in the end,based on everything we've seen so far...but I have to admit that Jon going all Targ crazy, & not only wiping out Lannister's & Frey's, (& Bolton's of course) but Tyrell's, & a lot of other houses he doesn't really have a beef with...maybe turning on Stannis, & killing Mel to take her power...well it has a little appeal! Don't get me wrong, I in no way want this scenario, but the idea of Jon all crazy @$$ on the Iron Throne with his "sister" wives at his side & the heads of Littlefinger & Varys on the wall...gotta admit, it wouldn't be dull!

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Jon Icefyre!!! Welcome back-- We've missed your input! :D

I for one can't wait until December 3-- I've got the ebook parked on my nook and plan to start reading at midnight. I think our very own FF3 might be one of the lucky ones who was able to get TPatQ early and could possibly shed some light on that for us? Tbh, I've been looking forward to it sooo much I'm avoiding all the spoiler threads.

I like the Jaime line of thinking too, fwiw.

Oh, yeah ;)

Already started my second compulsive re-reading LOL and had an interesting chat with our very Lord of the Metaphor, J. Stargaryen about certain 'colourful' details of the novel ;)

I don't want to spoil anything, so I'll code my input on poly marriages:

By the way facts are narrated and tenses used, we can safely deduce that Rhaenyra was married twice in succession (first to Laenor Velaryon and after his death, to Daemon Targaryen ). No poly marriage there.

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Oh, yeah ;)

Already started my second compulsive re-reading LOL and had an interesting chat with our very Lord of the Metaphor, J. Stargaryen about certain 'colourful' details of the novel ;)

I don't want to spoil anything, so I'll code my input on poly marriages:

By the way facts are narrated and tenses used, we can safely deduce that Rhaenyra was married twice in succession (first to Laenor Velaryon and after his death, to Daemon Targaryen ). No poly marriage there.

I thought as much.

Now... I'm almost sure that this has been mentioned before but I think it is not brought up often enough: if Aerys learned about Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna, he would do the same as Tywin did when he learned about Tyrion and Tysha. He would have it annulled, or declared invalid or something else.

BTW, do you think that we are ever going to get a closure on T+T (e.g. Tysha is pretty Meris or something like that), or that it was included only to give Tyrion some angst (and make a hint)?

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