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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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Well, I've always presumed that Jon would be the hero in the end,based on everything we've seen so far...but I have to admit that Jon going all Targ crazy, & not only wiping out Lannister's & Frey's, (& Bolton's of course) but Tyrell's, & a lot of other houses he doesn't really have a beef with...maybe turning on Srannis, & killing Mel to take her power...well it has a little appeal! Don't get me wrong, I in no way want this scenario, but the idea of Jon all crazy @$$ on the Iron Throne with his "sister" wives at his side & the heads of Littlefinger & Varys on the wall...gotta admit, it wouldn't be dull!

Are you sure we are talking about Jon, or the Governor from "The Walking Dead?" :cool4:

But, seriously, it really isn't outside the realm of possibility that Jon becomes utterly ruthless, (maybe not as fabulously as you've outlined :drool: ), but perhaps along the lines of Aegon the Conqueror, and certainly GRRM said himself that Jons character would become grey.

Oh, yeah ;)

Already started my second compulsive re-reading LOL and had an interesting chat with our very Lord of the Metaphor, J. Stargaryen about certain 'colourful' details of the novel ;)

I don't want to spoil anything, so I'll code my input on poly marriages:

By the way facts are narrated and tenses used, we can safely deduce that Rhaenyra was married twice in succession (first to Laenor Velaryon and after his death, to Daemon Targaryen ). No poly marriage there.

That makes sense from a historical standpoint too. Women of her status barely had time to "mourn" their first husband before they were quickly married off to a second.

In fact, before Laenor was even cold, ambitious men were likely lining up outside the door for her hand.

I thought as much.

Now... I'm almost sure that this has been mentioned before but I think it is not brought up often enough: if Aerys learned about Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna, he would do the same as Tywin did when he learned about Tyrion and Tysha. He would have it annulled, or declared invalid or something else.

BTW, do you think that we are ever going to get a closure on T+T (e.g. Tysha is pretty Meris or something like that), or that it was included only to give Tyrion some angst (and make a hint)?

Or, maybe she was part of the "contract" for Rhaegar coming back.

Perhaps in Aerys mind, he told Rhaegar he would recognize the marriage, the legitimacy of his son, win the war, and then make arrangements later for an "accident" to befall Lyanna.

You know Lyanna would have had no shortage of enemies from the Martells, Tywin and Cersei, as well as Aerys.

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Or, maybe she was part of the "contract" for Rhaegar coming back. Perhaps in Aerys mind, he told Rhaegar he would recognize the marriage, the legitimacy of his son, win the war, and then make arrangements later for an "accident" to befall Lyanna.

You know Lyanna would have had no shortage of enemies from the Martells, Tywin and Cersei, as well as Aerys.

Can't speak for Rhaegar but I would demand a royal decree on that beforehands :P

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Are you sure we are talking about Jon, or the Governor from "The Walking Dead?" :cool4:

But, seriously, it really isn't outside the realm of possibility that Jon becomes utterly ruthless, (maybe not as fabulously as you've outlined :drool: ), but perhaps along the lines of Aegon the Conqueror, and certainly GRRM said himself that Jons character would become grey.

That makes sense from a historical standpoint too. Women of her status barely had time to "mourn" their first husband before they were quickly married off to a second.

In fact, before Laenor was even cold, ambitious men were likely lining up outside the door for her hand.

Or, maybe she was part of the "contract" for Rhaegar coming back.

Perhaps in Aerys mind, he told Rhaegar he would recognize the marriage, the legitimacy of his son, win the war, and then make arrangements later for an "accident" to befall Lyanna.

You know Lyanna would have had no shortage of enemies from the Martells, Tywin and Cersei, as well as Aerys.

I've never seen the Walking Dead actually. ***runs*** I was just sort of thinking if they are going to do it why not go all the way?

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I've never seen the Walking Dead actually. ***runs*** I was just sort of thinking if they are going to do it why not go all the way?

Never? You've just described an iconic scene from TWD, lol. :)

(The Governor and his heads).

http://static.wetpaint.me/the-walking-dead/ROOT/photos/630/e4af8fa5ee3302402189814c1365bd39TWDGP30808060087-1370552021.jpg

But on topic, I do think that whatever Jon becomes, it will make sense to the story and his arc.

Danys story is also significant, and many presume she will go the way of her father, but Selmy doesn't seem to see it-yet. Only Ariannes statement from tWoW provides a bit of foreshadowing, but her judgement is suspect. So, would it actually be Jon who goes the way of his grandfather, or have a bit of the madness?

We can only hope that the Stark part of him tempers any Targ. madness and the results of any cosmic flip of the coin.

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Good.

I never understood that line of thinking. Its like saying the Starks are immune to rabies or can't wear silver.

Oh, I'm sure that from "Targaryens are speshul" we're for "but Dany is a speshul Targaryen".

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Let's drink to the death of the myth of fireproof Targaryens: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100017-targaryens-arent-super-human/?p=5187772

Oh you sweet summer child, when have facts and reason ever made certain posters acknowledge their wrongness? Those "Targs are fireproof" believers will not be swayed with a textual facts and logic! Lol.

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Im logged in from my phone and not sure if im supposed to put something specific at the beginning of this thread. I apologize in advance. Im a huge westeros.org lurker, usually reading the topics off the homepage to get my westeros fix. Im so greatful for the conversation, even if I only enjoy it passively.

Im a big R+L =J believer. I find myself scrounging for anything that I feel lcould be a hidden scrap of information.

Something that caught my ear from a re read, that I cannot shake. I have a inkling that something was yanked during editing.

During Neds review of parentage while playing PI Iin GOT, I found a huge issue with what goes through Neds mind. He discovers, what I assume is the closest thing to a paternaty test westeros has to offer. (They have the morning after pill!) He learns genetically that Dark hair Plus Blonde equals Dark hair.

In my heart if R+L=J, wouldnt one of the first examples that came to his mind be his sister, her blonde lover, and her dark haired child? At the very least hear a whisper in his mind from her.. and he hides it from himself becuase it hurts too much to think about? That situation would surely make him think of his beloved sister. I feel like there is something missing there. A missing sentence or reference that was deemed too obvious and removed. Thoughts? Thanks again for everything you guys are on here.

Can anyone give me an explanation where flipping through pages and proving that dark hair gentically overtakes the gold would not make him think about his sister and her golden haired beau, assuming r+l=j and that Ned knows about it?

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BTW, do you think that we are ever going to get a closure on T+T (e.g. Tysha is pretty Meris or something like that), or that it was included only to give Tyrion some angst (and make a hint)?

I think Penny is Tysha's daughter with Tyrion, I saw a pretty compelling essay last time and I am about 70% convinced.

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O.M.G.

This is part of it

Penny

  • She’s a dwarf

She has dark brown hair

She’s rather young and seems emotionally immature (more on that later)

She’s sexually inexperienced (her first kiss was with Tyrion)

Her brother Oppo aka Groat was killed by bounty hunters searching for Tyrion

She and her brother were nicknamed after the smallest coins

Her family lived in Oldtown

Her father was a dwarf (known as “Hop-Bean”), devised the jousting act, and is dead now

Her mother was not a dwarf, and loved to sing to Penny and her brother

Her mother’s also dead now

Tysha

  • She was a crofter’s daughter (a crofter is a farmer who basically works as a serf to a lord) and had to leave the farm when he died

She was being attacked and nearly assaulted by bandits when Jaime and Tyrion found her and saved her

She was approximately 13 when she and Tyrion met (note he was also 13 at the time)

She was not a dwarf

She had dark brown hair

She loved to sing (her favorite song being "Seasons of My Love")

She didn’t care what Tyrion looked like and loved him anyway

She was a virgin when they first had sex, and Tyrion married her the next day

They were married for two weeks and spent most of that time in bed

When he found out about the marriage, Tywin decided she was an uppity nobody who only married Tyrion for his money, and thus no different than a whore; and to punish her and to teach Tyrion “a sharp lesson” for marrying her, forced Jaime to tell Tyrion she was a whore he had bought for him, had her gang raped by a barracks of guardsmen and also Tyrion at the end, and had her paid for her “services” (a silver coin for each guard, a gold coin for Tyrion), sent away, and the marriage annulled

Tyrion has a hard time remembering exactly what she looked like, after all this time (about 13-14 years onwards)

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Im logged in from my phone and not sure if im supposed to put something specific at the beginning of this thread. I apologize in advance. Im a huge westeros.org lurker, usually reading the topics off the homepage to get my westeros fix. Im so greatful for the conversation, even if I only enjoy it passively.

Im a big R+L =J believer. I find myself scrounging for anything that I feel lcould be a hidden scrap of information.

Something that caught my ear from a re read, that I cannot shake. I have a inkling that something was yanked during editing.

During Neds review of parentage while playing PI Iin GOT, I found a huge issue with what goes through Neds mind. He discovers, what I assume is the closest thing to a paternaty test westeros has to offer. (They have the morning after pill!) He learns genetically that Dark hair Plus Blonde equals Dark hair.

In my heart if R+L=J, wouldnt one of the first examples that came to his mind be his sister, her blonde lover, and her dark haired child? At the very least hear a whisper in his mind from her.. and he hides it from himself becuase it hurts too much to think about? That situation would surely make him think of his beloved sister. I feel like there is something missing there. A missing sentence or reference that was deemed too obvious and removed. Thoughts? Thanks again for everything you guys are on here.

What do you make of the fact that Eddard thinks about Rhaegar's children as "the princess" and "the boy" without thinking "and the other boy"? Seems like Eddard thinks Rhaegar only had two children (Rhaenys and Aegon), not three.

This is in the chapter where he confronts Cersei in the gods wood.

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So, I've been thinking about this. Bear in mind that although I'm quite partial to spoilers and have roamed wildly over this board and read all theories voraciously, I haven't actually finished ADWD yet.



But.



We have R+L=J. We also have Robb's will declaring Jon a Stark and his heir.



If Jon finds out about his Targ lineage and realises he's heir to the throne.... which throne would he choose? I'd so much prefer the series to end with him as the King in the North, rather than him on the Iron Throne. I don't think after the wars of the recent times, the Northerners will have much, if any, truck with kneeling to the southern throne. Also, Jon has the respect of the wildlings settling in the New Gift area - they might not kneel to him per se but they might acknowledge his kingship in some kind of semi-independent but loyal fiefdom sort of way.



But where does that leave the other Starks kids? Specifically, what about Sansa? With Robb's death, and ignoring any patriarchal bullshit that places boys higher than girls in the pecking order, she should be the Stark in Winterfell. Would she marry Jon to 'unite' the Starks - or is that just too incestuous? We have the precedent of Tywin and Joanna Lannister marrying as first cousins, so it's obviously not beyond the pale for high born families to get that close.



The reason I started wondering about this was realising that Jon is now becoming the sort of knight/hero that Sansa has always fantasied about. He's lead the Watch agains the wildlings and the Others. He's been benevolent (giving lands and asking Tormond to fortify castles on the Wall with the proviso that the wildlings can have those areas as homes) and homicidally just ("Edd. Bring me a block.") which in the context of Westeros makes him a good king. Let's not even go into the Lord's Kiss ;)



All up, Jon is the type of hero that Sansa has always desired. So would she go there?


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Let's drink to the death of the myth of fireproof Targaryens: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100017-targaryens-arent-super-human/?p=5187772

Does this have spoilers from the Princess and the Queen? I am trying to avoid those as it is not available in my country yet.

P.S. -- the reason I ask is that when I opened that post it looked like it had some spoilers under tags and some spoilers that were not under tags, so I stopped reading immediately.

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This is part of it

Penny

  • She’s a dwarf

She has dark brown hair

She’s rather young and seems emotionally immature (more on that later)

She’s sexually inexperienced (her first kiss was with Tyrion)

Her brother Oppo aka Groat was killed by bounty hunters searching for Tyrion

She and her brother were nicknamed after the smallest coins

Her family lived in Oldtown

Her father was a dwarf (known as “Hop-Bean”), devised the jousting act, and is dead now

Her mother was not a dwarf, and loved to sing to Penny and her brother

Her mother’s also dead now

Tysha

  • She was a crofter’s daughter (a crofter is a farmer who basically works as a serf to a lord) and had to leave the farm when he died

She was being attacked and nearly assaulted by bandits when Jaime and Tyrion found her and saved her

She was approximately 13 when she and Tyrion met (note he was also 13 at the time)

She was not a dwarf

She had dark brown hair

She loved to sing (her favorite song being "Seasons of My Love")

She didn’t care what Tyrion looked like and loved him anyway

She was a virgin when they first had sex, and Tyrion married her the next day

They were married for two weeks and spent most of that time in bed

When he found out about the marriage, Tywin decided she was an uppity nobody who only married Tyrion for his money, and thus no different than a whore; and to punish her and to teach Tyrion “a sharp lesson” for marrying her, forced Jaime to tell Tyrion she was a whore he had bought for him, had her gang raped by a barracks of guardsmen and also Tyrion at the end, and had her paid for her “services” (a silver coin for each guard, a gold coin for Tyrion), sent away, and the marriage annulled

Tyrion has a hard time remembering exactly what she looked like, after all this time (about 13-14 years onwards)

That is stunning.

Thanks for the information. :bowdown:

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I was just reminded by my husband of the legends of the "dragon guarding his treasure," and thought of how that theme applied to Rhaegar, Lyanna and the TOJ.



A treasure of Onyx for her hair, ruby for her lips, pearl for her skin, and sapphire for her eyes.


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