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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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Does this have spoilers from the Princess and the Queen? I am trying to avoid those as it is not available in my country yet.

P.S. -- the reason I ask is that when I opened that post it looked like it had some spoilers under tags and some spoilers that were not under tags, so I stopped reading immediately.

Yes.

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Gotta say, was a little underwhelmed at the evidence. All these locations of characters and dates, pfffft really that's it?? Just finished my GOT reread though, and the thing that has me sold on this whole theory now is the blue roses, like twice they were mentioned about jon, and then rhaegar putting the crown in lyanna's lap, and I remember Danys vision from the HOTU.


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Gotta say, was a little underwhelmed at the evidence. All these locations of characters and dates, pfffft really that's it?? Just finished my GOT reread though, and the thing that has me sold on this whole theory now is the blue roses, like twice they were mentioned about jon, and then rhaegar putting the crown in lyanna's lap, and I remember Danys vision from the HOTU.

For a theory to be correct, the boring dates, locations and such have to fit.

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For a theory to be correct, the boring dates, locations and such have to fit.

Of course, but I thought that was all there was to it.. I briefly reviewed this thread, as the task of going through everything was too much, and all I seen were locations and dates.

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Of course, but I thought that was all there was to it.. I briefly reviewed this thread, as the task of going through everything was too much, and all I seen were locations and dates.

Well, the brief overview is essentially that Rhaegar and Lyanna disappear for most of Robert's Rebellion. When Ned heads down to the Tower of Joy, he finds Lyanna dying in a "bed of blood", which is a term that's associated with birth in the novels. Based on the timing, Lyanna's death coincides with the timeframe when Jon was born. We also have Ned reflecting throughout AGOT about the promises he made to Lyanna and the price he paid to keep them. Burying her in a crypt costs him nothing, so whatever Ned promised Lyanna has deeper consequences, which we can associate with being the strain claiming Jon as his bastard places on his family and his marriage, at the very least. Also, there's the fact that Ned never internally refers to Jon as his son, just that he's his blood. A lot of these are somewhat circumstantial, but there's enough there to make a case.

As you said, though, the blue roses are really the critical link. They're associated with Lyanna directly several times -- the laurel Rhaegar gives her, the flowers Ned leaves her, the petals blowing in Ned's dream of the Tower Joy, and Ned thinks of them when Cersei speaks her name to him. The story of Bael the Bard is also strong evidence -- a singer steals the daughter of Winterfell, leaving a winter rose in her place, and then gives her a son. It's probably not completely true, but the broad strokes are there. And then, of course, the House of the Undying makes us associate the blue rose with Jon.

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Let's drink to the death of the myth of fireproof Targaryens: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100017-targaryens-arent-super-human/?p=5187772

Prosit! One less argument for R+L=J detractors.

Can anyone give me an explanation where flipping through pages and proving that dark hair gentically overtakes the gold would not make him think about his sister and her golden haired beau, assuming r+l=j and that Ned knows about it?

Fact is we are not talking about a real person nor real thoughts (even assuming we all are a bunch of mind readers stalking other people's neural paths 24/7). We are talking about a fictitious persona. We are analysing a piece of literature devised by a talented author with certain narrative needs LOL He needs to build a solid, coherent and compelling narrative structure (comprehensive of clues, meta-textual frames and foreshadowings) without giving away big plot twist right at the beginning of his narration. Simple as that.

Of course, but I thought that was all there was to it.. I briefly reviewed this thread, as the task of going through everything was too much, and all I seen were locations and dates.

Well, there is also a huge amount of textual analysis, including allegories, symbolisms, metaphors, puns/paranomasias and foreshadowings nitpicking. 66 versions of the same thread are not there just for chronology sake.

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Can anyone give me an explanation where flipping through pages and proving that dark hair gentically overtakes the gold would not make him think about his sister and her golden haired beau, assuming r+l=j and that Ned knows about it?

Well, Rhaegar did not have golden hair, now did he? Also, the black hair winning over the golden hair, applies for Baratheon-Lannister unions, not for any others.

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Of course, but I thought that was all there was to it.. I briefly reviewed this thread, as the task of going through everything was too much, and all I seen were locations and dates.

Most of the time, the threads rehash the details for those unfamiliar with them; there is also some analysis, observations etc., but without any new material, these are getting a bit far between.

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Oh, yeah ;)

Already started my second compulsive re-reading LOL and had an interesting chat with our very Lord of the Metaphor, J. Stargaryen about certain 'colourful' details of the novel ;)

I don't want to spoil anything, so I'll code my input on poly marriages:

By the way facts are narrated and tenses used, we can safely deduce that Rhaenyra was married twice in succession (first to Laenor Velaryon and after his death, to Daemon Targaryen ). No poly marriage there.

Haha. You're way too kind. :blushing:

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Well, there is also a huge amount of textual analysis, including allegories, symbolisms, metaphors, puns/paranomasias and foreshadowings nitpicking. 66 versions of the same thread are not there just for chronology sake.

That's my point, 66 threads with dozens of pages each, it put me off looking into this at all, so I just skimmed a few things and all I could see from that were the dates and locations.

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That's my point, 66 threads with dozens of pages each, it put me off looking into this at all, so I just skimmed a few things and all I could see from that were the dates and locations.

Better to ask right away :-)

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That's my point, 66 threads with dozens of pages each, it put me off looking into this at all, so I just skimmed a few things and all I could see from that were the dates and locations.

You could try these threads:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79816-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82623-jon-snow-and-the-blue-winter-rosetta-stone/

Or ask some specific questions (we love answering ;) )

At some point you're going to have to read many pages to if you want all the evidence. If you are averse to that :dunno:

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Well I guess he needs a new ridiculous theory to defend to the bitter end since Princess and the Queen has made it abundantly clear Targs are not fireproof.

Sadly it's an old argument that has been debunked as many times as fireproof Targs. No chance TPatQ mentions Wylla at all? :lol:

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Sadly it's an old argument that has been debunked as many times as fireproof Targs. No chance TPatQ mentions Wylla at all? :lol:

The only significant thing about Wylla of the TOJ, is that there is a very mouthy, fourteen/fifteen year old blonde/silver-haired girl in the Manderly household who dyes her hair green and who shares her name. :thumbsup:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/185/1/8/wylla_manderly_by_dracarysvg-d6bye2p.jpg

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d5/85/dd/d585ddc12c34f744f7c5f48914166511.jpg

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The only significant thing about Wylla of the TOJ, is that there is a very mouthy, fourteen/fifteen year old blonde/silver-haired girl in the Manderly household who dyes her hair green and who shares her name. :thumbsup:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/185/1/8/wylla_manderly_by_dracarysvg-d6bye2p.jpg

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/d5/85/dd/d585ddc12c34f744f7c5f48914166511.jpg

:D

Thanks for the art... The second one is particularly lovely!

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Well I guess he needs a new ridiculous theory to defend to the bitter end since Princess and the Queen has made it abundantly clear Targs are not fireproof.

Unfortunately I still can't get the Princess and the Queen yet, so I appreciate the no-spoilers rule.

But if it shows that no Targaryens have greater than normal resistance to heat then I will revise my opinion on that. And I will admit it.

If it just shows that a lot of fire can burn some Targaryens -- that is, as we always knew, Targaryens aren't completely fireproof -- then I will stick to my guns on this one.

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