R+L=J v 66

[Alia of the knife]

:D

Thanks for the art... The second one is particularly lovely!

You know that's one of my personal crackpots, and I'm embracing it. :D

And yes, I loved that piece of artwork. It just really seemed to capture the unique pedigree of Lyanna as a Stark and the land she was a part of, which I think Robert alluded to.

Edit: I just noticed the blue roses flanking the corners of the frame in the first piece depicting Wylla Manderly. Maybe I'm not the only one with that crackpot, lol.

[Alia of the knife]

@Lady Gwyn,

Just noticed your links at the bottom of your page.

I love that you have compiled all of your analysis in one place. I look forward to reading more. :bowdown:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

@Lady Gwyn,

Just noticed your links at the bottom of your page.

I love that you have compiled all of your analysis in one place. I look forward to reading more. :bowdown:

Aw thanks Alia!

A work in progress still, of course, but fun work :)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Edit: I just noticed the blue roses flanking the corners of the frame in the first piece depicting Wylla Manderly. Maybe I'm not the only one with that crackpot, lol.

*is afraid to ask*

[FrozenFire3]

You know that's one of my personal crackpots, and I'm embracing it. :D

And yes, I loved that piece of artwork. It just really seemed to capture the unique pedigree of Lyanna as a Stark and the land she was a part of, which I think Robert alluded to.

Edit: I just noticed the blue roses flanking the corners of the frame in the first piece depicting Wylla Manderly. Maybe I'm not the only one with that crackpot, lol.

Have to join the 'crackfest' LOL

I agree, narratively there MUST be a reason for introducing such a strong-willed, outspoken, brave and independent character (sounds familiar?) who, for no apparent reason, dyes her hair 'green' (J. Stargaryen, something to add? ;)). Not to mention her name. We can only guess such a reason...

A little rhetorical tidbit: a dark boy taking physically after his mother/temperament-wise after his father and a fair girl taking temperament-wise after her mother/physically after her father make for the ultimate chiasmus. Just sayin' :cool4:

[Alia of the knife]

Have to join the 'crackfest' LOL

I agree, narratively there MUST be a reason for introducing such a strong-willed, outspoken, brave and independent character (sounds familiar?) who, for no apparent reason, dyes her hair 'green' (J. Stargaryen, something to add? ;)). Not to mention her name. We can only guess such a reason...

A little rhetorical tidbit: a dark boy taking physically after his mother/temperament-wise after his father and a fair girl taking temperament-wise after her mother/physically after her father make for the ultimate chiasmus. Just sayin' :cool4:

And for all those reasons you just outlined, I jumped aboard that crazy train. :drool:

I know there are many who are not fans of the "twins" thing because maybe "it's just too Lucas," but, from the standpoint of the book, GRRM has made twins a part of the "Targaryen factor," so it's not to be ruled out.

Also, from a symbolic standpoint, twins have always had a metaphysical significance referenced often in literature, which are both seen as a blessing, or a curse, but especially as two halves of a whole.

Twins in Mythology:

- Romulus and Remus

- Apollos and Artemis

- Castor and Pollux

- Arsu and Azizos

- Freyr and Freyja

- Yama and Yami

- Lava and Kusha

- Ahriman and Ahura Mazda

And while I understand that even in 2013, childbirth is no joke, and still dangerous, either GRRM is calling upon irony to highlight the fact that poor, sickly, frail Elia managed to bear two children though it almost killed her, harkening back to her own near death in the crib, as a fighter, while the strong, athletic KotLT was felled in one birthing.

Or, something more significant in that birth caused the complications that killed Lyanna.

It's also been speculated that Rhaegar expected a girl, and I like the idea that like Paul Muadib who "saw" Ghanima in prescient visions, he did not "see" Leto, who was the catalyst, that Rhaegar may not have expected Jon.

What to do when prophesy doesn't go the way expected?........

Aw thanks Alia!

A work in progress still, of course, but fun work :)

Looking forward to it.

*is afraid to ask*

:D

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And while I understand that even in 2013, childbirth is no joke, and still dangerous, either GRRM is calling upon irony to highlight the fact that poor, sickly, frail Elia managed to bear two children though it almost killed her, harkening back to her own near death in the crib, as a fighter, while the strong, athletic KotLT was felled in one birthing.

Oh, that one is very nice. I hadn't thought about this comparison at all.!! I salute you!

I know there are many who are not fans of the "twins" thing because maybe "it's just too Lucas," but, from the standpoint of the book, GRRM has made twins a part of the "Targaryen factor," so it's not to be ruled out.

How many twins were there amongst the Targaryens?

Just Rhaegels sons, and the sons of Aegon II and Helaena, right? Or am I missing a set?

Also, just to point out, both set of twins appear relatively early in the family tree. No twins have been born amongst the Targaryens for more than 100 years. Could that mean anything?

[Ygrain]

My take on the introduction of Wylla Manderly is that she is a subtle way to draw attention to the original Wylla, in order to prepare some reveal in the next book. The whole R+L thing is seemingly dozing off, with only Barristan reflecting how Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it and Dany dreaming of a romantic abduction saving the maiden from an unwanted marriage, but on the side we keep getting reminders how Lyanna was a superb rider and that horsemanship is core for winning jousts. There is no convenient context to slip in Wylla the wetnurse but a namesake works as a reminder just fine - exactly like does the young Lyanna Mormont. Two young defiant ladies, named after the R+L-related characters. Hardly a coincidence.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Didn't Daemon Blackfyre have twin sons?

Alia-- I am very fond of this "crackpot" of yours :D

[Alia of the knife]

Oh, that one is very nice. I hadn't thought about this comparison at all.!! I salute you!

How many twins were there amongst the Targaryens?

Just Rhaegels sons, and the sons of Aegon II and Helaena, right? Or am I missing a set?

Also, just to point out, both set of twins appear relatively early in the family tree. No twins have been born amongst the Targaryens for more than 100 years. Could that mean anything?

But, they are still a factor for precedent, and I think that GRRM like many writers incorporates them for the methaphysical symbolism to add to the Targaryen mythos.

Edit: And thank you. :bowdown:

[Alia of the knife]

Didn't Daemon Blackfyre have twin sons?

Alia-- I am very fond of this "crackpot" of yours :D

He did, in fact, I think that is how he died. He would not leave them on the battlefield.

But, I think it's the whole hair-dying thing. Unless she's a groupie for the Sex Pistols, why would she be dying her blonde hair green, (even though she leaves her brows blonde) as FF3 pointed out, for no apparent reason?

[WhiteOwl18]

My take on the introduction of Wylla Manderly is that she is a subtle way to draw attention to the original Wylla, in order to prepare some reveal in the next book. The whole R+L thing is seemingly dozing off, with only Barristan reflecting how Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it and Dany dreaming of a romantic abduction saving the maiden from an unwanted marriage, but on the side we keep getting reminders how Lyanna was a superb rider and that horsemanship is core for winning jousts. There is no convenient context to slip in Wylla the wetnurse but a namesake works as a reminder just fine - exactly like does the young Lyanna Mormont. Two young defiant ladies, named after the R+L-related characters. Hardly a coincidence.

Yes, I agree with that. The two young ladies who stand up for the Starks have the names of two women who were very important in Jon's early life: his mother and the woman who breastfed him.

[J. Stargaryen]

Have to join the 'crackfest' LOL

I agree, narratively there MUST be a reason for introducing such a strong-willed, outspoken, brave and independent character (sounds familiar?) who, for no apparent reason, dyes her hair 'green' (J. Stargaryen, something to add? ;)). Not to mention her name. We can only guess such a reason...

A little rhetorical tidbit: a dark boy taking physically after his mother/temperament-wise after his father and a fair girl taking temperament-wise after her mother/physically after her father make for the ultimate chiasmus. Just sayin' :cool4:

The Battle of the Blackwater is referenced in the paragraph before we are introduced to Wylla Manderly, so that might be something:

Davos felt a stab of despair. His Grace should have sent another man, a lord or knight or maester, someone who could speak for him without tripping on his own tongue. “Death,” he heard himself say, “there will be death, aye. Your lordship lost a son at the Red Wedding. I lost four upon the Blackwater. And why? Because the Lannisters stole the throne. Go to King’s Landing and look on Tommen with your own eyes, if you doubt me. A blind man could see it. What does Stannis offer you? Vengeance. Vengeance for my sons and yours, for your husbands and your fathers and your brothers. Vengeance for your murdered lord, your murdered king, your butchered princes. Vengeance!”

“Yes,” piped a girl’s voice, thin and high.

It belonged to the half-grown child with the blond eyebrows and the long green braid. “They killed Lord Eddard and Lady Catelyn and King Robb,” she said. “He was our king! He was brave and good, and the Freys murdered him. If Lord Stannis will avenge him, we should join Lord Stannis.”

- ADwD, Davos III

I suppose it's also true that Davos says "the Lannisters stole [usurped] the throne." So this might well be a 'black and green' scene.

The fact that Wylla's braid is dyed (re: artificially colored) might be a hint that the Manderly's are only feigning their allegiance to the 'green' side of the conflict; i.e., her hair is not really green, nor are the Manderlys actually loyal to the Baratheon-Lannisters.

As for the braid itself, I'd start with AGoT, Daenerys III:

Her brother took her by the arm as Illyrio waddled over to the khal, his fingers squeezing so hard that they hurt. “Do you see his braid, sweet sister?”

Drogo’s braid was black as midnight and heavy with scented oil, hung with tiny bells that rang softly as he moved. It swung well past his belt, below even his buttocks, the end of it brushing against the back of his thighs.

“You see how long it is?” Viserys said. “When Dothraki are defeated in combat, they cut off their braids in disgrace, so the world will know their shame. Khal Drogo has never lost a fight. He is Aegon the Dragonlord come again, and you will be his queen.”

I think braids – likely with an emphasis on the long ones – are probably meant to be synonymous with warriors, though I haven't researched the topic thoroughly yet. Also, some are figuratively 'warriors', like our dearest Wylla. She's quite feisty. :)

For example, aside from the Dothraki, Qhorin Halfhand and Visenya Targaryen both wore braids.

[Ygrain]

Speaking of feisty ladies, this one gives me strong asoiaf vibes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ASUCSOu58A

Viva Caterina Sforza!

[Alia of the knife]

The Battle of the Blackwater is referenced in the paragraph before we are introduced to Wylla Manderly, so that might be something:

- ADwD, Davos III

I suppose it's also true that Davos says "the Lannisters stole [usurped] the throne." So this might well be a 'black and green' scene.

The fact that Wylla's braid is dyed (re: artificially colored) might be a hint that the Manderly's are only feigning their allegiance to the 'green' side of the conflict; i.e., her hair is not really green, nor are the Manderly loyalties.

As for the braid itself, I'd start with AGoT, Daenerys III:

I think braids – likely with an emphasis on the long ones – are probably meant to be synonymous with warriors, though I haven't researched the topic thoroughly yet. Also, some are figuratively 'warriors', like our dearest Wylla. She's quite feisty. :)

For example, aside from the Dothraki, Qhorin Halfhand and Visenya Targaryen both wore braids.

Great insights as always. :bowdown:

I suppose another reason for my crackpot is the speech she made and the implications, at least in my mind:

"I know about the promise … Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!" - Wiki.

Again, the emphasis on the word, "promise," and the passion and fearlessness in which she gave that speech makes me think she was reared specifically to be "Stark-centric," almost as though it's a mantra and declaration.

And there can be no doubt about Manderlys devotion to Ned and the Starks given his vengeance, :stillsick: .

So if Ned had had a dilemma of two babies, one dark and the other fair, he might entrust the second with a family he knew beyond a shadow of doubt he could trust with her safety, a family that would owe them a tremendous debt, and where no one would look too closely, while he took the other, the dark one, as his bastard.

If it's not true, it will be another "goose egg" in "my theories column," so don't let me go to Vegas :laugh:

[J. Stargaryen]

Great insights as always. :bowdown:

I suppose another reason for my crackpot is the speech she made and the implications, at least in my mind:

"I know about the promise … Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!" - Wiki.

Again, the emphasis on the word, "promise," and the passion and fearlessness in which she gave that speech makes me think she was reared specifically to be "Stark-centric," almost as though it's a mantra and declaration.

And there can be no doubt about Manderlys devotion to Ned and the Starks given his vengeance, :stillsick: .

So if Ned had had a dilemma of two babies, one dark and the other fair, he might entrust the second with a family he knew beyond a shadow of doubt he could trust with her safety, a family that would owe them a tremendous debt, and where no one would look too closely, while he took the other, the dark one, as his bastard.

If it's not true, it will be another "goose egg" in "my theories column," so don't let me go to Vegas :laugh:

Hm. "I know about the promise," – I wonder if this isn't a nod to her symbolic namesake, Wylla the wet-nurse, knowing about Promise me, Ned.

[Alia of the knife]

Hm. "I know about the promise," – I wonder if this isn't a nod to her symbolic namesake, Wylla the wet-nurse, knowing about Promise me, Ned.

Good point. :)

[J. Stargaryen]

Good point. :)

Sorry for being a wet blanket. The idea just popped into my head. :leaving:

I mean, I think you're correct that there is a purposeful use of "promise" in that speech. I just don't buy into any of the twin theories. I'm so orthodox. ;)

[Dany Girl]

I was under the impression that Wylla was closer in age to Arya, so looked her up on the Wiki and she's supposed to be 15. That's approximately the same age as Jon, so I guess timeline is consistent. I'm liking this theory, at least a lot more than the Meera is Jon's twin theory. It would be interesting to see a more Targ looking offspring as well as a Stark looking offspring from the R&L pairing.

Edit: also twins separated to protect them from danger fits into the Star Wars aspect that Alfie Allen spoke about. Luke and Leia were hidden from the Empire, where Jon/WWylla might be hidden from Robert's Empire :)

[Alia of the knife]

Sorry for being a wet blanket. The idea just popped into my head. :leaving:

I mean, I think you're correct that there is a purposeful use of "promise" in that speech. I just don't buy into any of the twin theories. I'm so orthodox. ;)

That's okay, :cheers: .

I suppose I'm drawn to the mysterious aspect of twins, and maybe the fact it would be nice to see that Rhaegar does live on in someone as much as Lyanna does.

I always made the assumption that had Aegon lived, while he might have resembled his father, he would have taken after his mother, which given her supposedly sweet nature, coupled with Rhaegars nature, seems to be a clue our current faegon doesn't seem to take after either.