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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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I agree.

In addition, I'll now float my favorite crackpot ( ;) ) about the situation-- that Rhaegar was in fact rescuing Lyanna from his mad father's obsession with TKotLT, that he informed Rickard of the situation but as you guys suggest, Brandon just never got the memo.

That makes perfect sense. I also think that someone might have made Brandon believe that the situation was worse than it actually was.

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Excellent analysis, thanks for putting this up. I'm curious how no one else in-verse has thought about this before though. They know of the KG vows as well as, if not better than, we do. Particularly Jamie and Barristan, who are/were KG themselves. So they must have known that the KG were protecting something at the ToJ. Clearly they don't have access to the conversation that took place and of course they wouldn't know it was Jon, but wouldn't they be curious why exactly the KG was there in the first place? Shouldn't there be more speculation from other characters about the ToJ? I can think of a few possibilities for us never hearing anything about this, but they're not all that convincing to me.

Thanks for the props. As others have already pointed out, we do not know what stories Ned has contrived, other than Wylla to Robert. The battle that saw the end of the Kingsguard could have taken place anywhere, including at Storm's End, as far as anyone (other than Ned) in-verse has revealed. We do know how Ned saw their end, though. Someone in-verse can piece it together, eventually. Likely candidates are Tyion, Jaime, and Barristan. I always found the conversation between Ned and Barristan extremely interesting at the Hand's Tourney. In the screenplay Barristan takes the place of Arthur in Jaime's stories, so even more interesting.

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Hmm. Didn't Jaime know that the KG was with Rhaegar when the rebellion started, but didn't come back with him when he came to fight Robert? My memory is a bit hazy. I think you're right that nobody knows about the ToJ in terms of where it is and what happened there, but assuming I remembered correctly about Jaime, the exact location or happenings at ToJ doesn't matter as much as Jaime's knowledge that the three KG were conspicuously absent from the rebellion, at a time when Rhaegar came back specifically because the war was not going as well. Of course if Jaime didn't know about them being with Rhaegar then it doesn't matter.

Let Jaime answer himself. According to his own memories, Aerys dismissed Merrywether after the rebels intial advances, and he'd liked to name Rhaegar as Hand, but he was nowhere to be found. He doesn't mention the two KG, but I asume Jaime was able of counting till seven without his brother's help.

Btw, I find that just weird, since the Crown Prince was entitled enough to lead the army, among other things. He had no need to be named the King's Hand. I guess Jaime could have misunderstood Aerys. He might be sending a message to Rhaegar, since we know their relations were ackward at best. Anyway, Jaime's musing are as they are.

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I agree.

In addition, I'll now float my favorite crackpot ( ;) ) about the situation-- that Rhaegar was in fact rescuing Lyanna from his mad father's obsession with TKotLT, that he informed Rickard of the situation but as you guys suggest, Brandon just never got the memo.

Let me both agree and disagree.

I guess Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna, but from Robert.

Lord Rickard knew his daughter and he hadn't heard of anyone slitting Rhaegar's throat. He needed not hear any more.

Only the "gallant fool" didn't notice.

This begs some argument, I know.

We're not told enough of Lyanna's reaction when Rhaegar crowned her as QOLB, but we know her niece's when Loras threw her a rose. I guess it was a good way to fix some girl's attention.

Otoh, we know she didn't like Robert, who was already building a reputation as drunkard and whoreman. I guess she could foretell the lazy sot he'd became, with or without her.

By then, I think Aerys had forgotten about the KOLT by then, but he could always remember. We don't know what happened between Aerys and Rgaegar, but it wasn't easy for sure.

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Lyanna may even have sent a message to Rickard that Brandon, being leagues away from Winterfell in the Riverlands, simply did not get... then he overreacted to the news of the abduction and got himself in a bad situation. Rickard was still forced to come south in that scenario to bail out Brandon.

That's exactly what I've been saying :)

That's what I think happened. It always struck me as strange the fact that Rickard had absolutely no reaction to his daughter's "kidnapping". He didn't go looking for her, he didn't try to negotiate with the king, he didn't call his banners, nothing. It was Brandon who reacted in that very thoughtless way, not Rickard. As the head of the house, shouldn't he have been the one to do something? The fact that he didn't, makes me think that he knew exactly what was happening.

Interesting idea. We indeed never hear anything about Rickard reacting to Lyanna's abduction. So perhaps the message did come trough, only not to Brandon. It would have been most logical for Lyanna to send her father the message, and not her brothers. I even suspect Benjen knew what was going on as well, but Brandon was already on his way to Riverrun, and Ned was in the Eyrie, so he couldn't tell his brothers. Benjen wouldn't see Brandon again, so there was absolutely no way the news could have reached Brandon through either Benjen or Lyanna. By the time Ned reached Winterfell, where Benjen would be, it would already be too late. Rickard and Brandon were already killed, and Ned had no choice but to go to war. This would also explain why Benjen joined the Nights Watch so short after the Rebellion ended.

With Rickard concerned about the imprisonment of his eldest son, yet showing no concern about his missing daughter, indicates he might have known more than Brandon. Though, since we've heard only so little about Rickard, there might be the slight chance there is still something to learn about that period of time.

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That makes perfect sense. I also think that someone might have made Brandon believe that the situation was worse than it actually was.

Any theory on who that person might have been? :)

Let Jaime answer himself. According to his own memories, Aerys dismissed Merrywether after the rebels intial advances, and he'd liked to name Rhaegar as Hand, but he was nowhere to be found. He doesn't mention the two KG, but I asume Jaime was able of counting till seven without his brother's help.

Btw, I find that just weird, since the Crown Prince was entitled enough to lead the army, among other things. He had no need to be named the King's Hand. I guess Jaime could have misunderstood Aerys. He might be sending a message to Rhaegar, since we know their relations were ackward at best. Anyway, Jaime's musing are as they are.

Could you please quote the passage about Aerys wanting to name Rhaegar Hand? I can only remember he wanted to name someone young to match Robert's valor. I can't remember anything being said about Aerys wanting Rhaegar as a Hand.

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I'm more inclined to think Littlefinger, but Varys makes sense too.

I always thought LF as well, but GRRM seems to have debunked that in recent comments about what LF did after his duel with Brandon. Iirc, he answered a question (probably posed with this scenario in mind) about LF by saying that he had been near death and then was sent home in a litter by Lord Hoster. As much as the information he offered seems non committal, it was his bemused tone at the question that I thought put LF out of the running in this horse race. Maybe someone can fish the ref?

Varys is interesting though. Or alternatively, just simple smallfolk who inevitably get everything wrong.

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I always thought LF as well, but GRRM seems to have debunked that in recent comments about what LF did after his duel with Brandon. Iirc, he answered a question (probably posed with this scenario in mind) about LF by saying that he had been near death and then was sent home in a litter by Lord Hoster. As much as the information he offered seems non committal, it was his bemused tone at the question that I thought put LF out of the running in this horse race. Maybe someone can fish the ref?

Varys is interesting though. Or alternatively, just simple smallfolk who inevitably get everything wrong.

I've heard that too, but I can't seem to find the reference anywhere. I would love it if someone could.

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Sorry to jump in on this trail of thought, but would it be possible that Brandon's "informant" could have been Maester Walys?

I mean, while I doubt Brandon was the sharpest sword in the armoury (so to speak :cool4:) I have trouble believing that he would believe just anyone about something so big which caused him to act as rashly as he did. As the Maester of Winterfell, Walys would have been in a position of extreme trust by Brandon and no doubt that the two would have known each other quite well.

Perhaps Walys sent a raven/messenger to Brandon under the guise that it was on behalf of Rickard Stark for Brandon to go to Kings landing and challenge the Prince? (or something of the kind) that would spur Brandon into action without a second thought - believing it was an order from his father and that time was of the essence .

Why would Walys betray the Starks? (apart from the fact it seems to be a running gag within the series :uhoh:) well, throughout the novels, reasons have been given for Lords/Ladys not to trust their Maesters. (i.e. Manderly not trusting his Measter because he used to be a Lannister etc) In ADWD Barbry Dustin also goes on about her mistrust of the Maesters to Theon, and - more interestingly - the massive info dump about Brandon and Walys shortly follows in comjunction, which made me think that perhaps their story is linked to more than just being acquaintances (for lack of better word)

There was also the heavy foreshadowing that Maesters were the reason for the extinction of Targ dragons in Westeros and their seeming hatred/dismissal of magic. Perhaps certain members of the Measter order wanted to get rid of the Targs for all their recent follys and the best way of eliminating them/ dethroning them would be through war - and who better to set up as the opponents than the Starks (with their different culture and Gods) who are about to enter an alliance with the Tully's, Baratheon's through marriage (at Walys' "suggestion" according to Barbrey) the significant ties with the Vale via Ned. (and also the failed betrothal of Jaime and Lysa)

While I don't believe many Maesters were in on this hypothetical plot, I do think some of the most influential ones were. We know Measter Walys was the bastard son of an Archmaester, so perhaps his father was apart of this conspiracy, and acted under his instruction. I would of thought it may have been fairly easy of Maesters to communicate with eachother through raven mail without drawing much suspicion.

IIRC someone was whispering into Areys ear about Rickard's "Southern Ambitions" making him nervous and paranoid enough that a rebellion may be on the horizon (how ironic) that through his paranoia he may just declare war on this alliance. But with Rheagar and Lyanna's elopement, which has a high chance of breaking the alliance with the Stormlands, may ruin their plans for a "predetermined war" - spurring the Measters - through Walys - into a hasty way to definitely start this war.

So that was my pretty long winded way of saying I think Walys was behind the information Brandon received. While much of this may be speculation, (especially towards the end) I think its some healthy food for thought. I'll be interested to know your thoughts, and please point out the holes in this theory. its nice to get a different perspective :drool: or do you think it is :bs:


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Thanks for the props. As others have already pointed out, we do not know what stories Ned has contrived, other than Wylla to Robert. The battle that saw the end of the Kingsguard could have taken place anywhere, including at Storm's End, as far as anyone (other than Ned) in-verse has revealed. We do know how Ned saw their end, though. Someone in-verse can piece it together, eventually. Likely candidates are Tyion, Jaime, and Barristan. I always found the conversation between Ned and Barristan extremely interesting at the Hand's Tourney. In the screenplay Barristan takes the place of Arthur in Jaime's stories, so even more interesting.

I don't think the KG battle could have taken place anywhere public, simply because there'd be too many people around and word would spread. E.g. if the battle happened at Storm's End where the loyalist forces were laying a siege, that'd be hundreds if not thousands of soldiers around and word would no doubt have spread about the epic battle, or at least the death of the greatest knight alive. Similarly for a battle around any cities. This still leaves open a million different non-public places the battle could have taken place, of course, without anyone knowing about the ToJ or anything more specific than Ned and bros killed Dayne and co. But yeah, I agree if anyone figures it out it'll be one of the three you mentioned. And damn, I gotta write two papers but now I'm intrigued about this exchange between Ned and Barristan, gonna go look that up real quick. =P

Let Jaime answer himself. According to his own memories, Aerys dismissed Merrywether after the rebels intial advances, and he'd liked to name Rhaegar as Hand, but he was nowhere to be found. He doesn't mention the two KG, but I asume Jaime was able of counting till seven without his brother's help.

Btw, I find that just weird, since the Crown Prince was entitled enough to lead the army, among other things. He had no need to be named the King's Hand. I guess Jaime could have misunderstood Aerys. He might be sending a message to Rhaegar, since we know their relations were ackward at best. Anyway, Jaime's musing are as they are.

Yeah, after rereading (quickly) all mentions of Rhaegar/Dayne from Jaime and Barristan's POVs, it's unclear what they actually knew. I found it interesting that the king initially (ever?) couldn't find Rhaegar, implying that he didn't really care to know where Rhaegar was until the war started turning serious, and Rhaegar and Dayne/Whent never revealed Rhaegar's location to Aerys prior to that (or ever) either. Rhaegar was ultimately convinced to come back to KL, though it's not clear if someone convinced him, or the news of the rebellion being more serious than he previously thought was what did the trick. In either case, the KG at ToJ were up to date with all the latest happenings when Ned finds them so they did have access to the outside world. There's a number of possibilities consistent with these facts as well as the idea that no one knew about the ToJ so I won't speculate here.

What I am also curious about though is how long Ned's trip from Storm's End to Starfall to Winterfell took as compared to how long it would have normally taken a party of their size and baggage. I choose those three places because everyone knows Ned went to all three due to the number of other witnesses there. I'm not sure if the length of the trip is mentioned in the books. If the trip basically took the minimum period of time necessary I think it would eliminate a number of possibilities for where and when Ned found Lyanna and where and when Ned fought Dayne, and should make other characters a bit more suspicious, IMO. If the trip took it's jolly ol' time, all bets are off. More broad-based speculation on my part. I'm definitely doing a reread after finals.

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I always thought LF as well, but GRRM seems to have debunked that in recent comments about what LF did after his duel with Brandon. Iirc, he answered a question (probably posed with this scenario in mind) about LF by saying that he had been near death and then was sent home in a litter by Lord Hoster. As much as the information he offered seems non committal, it was his bemused tone at the question that I thought put LF out of the running in this horse race. Maybe someone can fish the ref?

Varys is interesting though. Or alternatively, just simple smallfolk who inevitably get everything wrong.

I have a pet theory that Tywin may have had a hand in it too. He was supposedly licking his wounds back at CR but it seems very out of character that he wasn't plotting some kind of revenge against the king for taking his son and heir and rejecting his daughter. After all, he ended up benefiting the most from the rebellion after Robert with minimal effort.

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Maesters schemin..

While I don't see any holes in your theory, I personally would just prefer if there isn't some grand conspiracy behind every action in the books. It makes it a lot more interesting to me if Brandon did just react the way that he did because he was hot-headed and cared about his sister. This is perfectly in line with his character too, as we know. I think Rickard's absence can more easily be explained by the fact that a Lord of a house going down to KL would probably be seen as a more aggressive response than just Brandon going. Or maybe he was more level-headed and wanted to make sure the facts were straight before heading down himself instead of rushing off impulsively like Brandon did. Or maybe he thought that Lyanna was just f*cking around, doing some stuff in line with her wolf-blood and would show up eventually. Again, not to discredit your theory, it's plausible, I just personally prefer if it were not true, =P.

I have a pet theory that Tywin may have had a hand in it too. He was supposedly licking his wounds back at CR but it seems very out of character that he wasn't plotting some kind of revenge against the king for taking his son and heir and rejecting his daughter. After all, he ended up benefiting the most from the rebellion after Robert with minimal effort.

Tywin benefited by staying out of the war. I think it's highly unlikely, given Aerys' distrust and dislike of Tywin, that Aerys would have forgotten the Lannister absence from the majority of the war if the loyalists had won.

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That's what I think happened. It always struck me as strange the fact that Rickard had absolutely no reaction to his daughter's "kidnapping". He didn't go looking for her, he didn't try to negotiate with the king, he didn't call his banners, nothing. It was Brandon who reacted in that very thoughtless way, not Rickard. As the head of the house, shouldn't he have been the one to do something? The fact that he didn't, makes me think that he knew exactly what was happening.

I agree.

In addition, I'll now float my favorite crackpot ( ;) ) about the situation-- that Rhaegar was in fact rescuing Lyanna from his mad father's obsession with TKotLT, that he informed Rickard of the situation but as you guys suggest, Brandon just never got the memo.

I hadn't thought of LG's idea before but it makes sense. I definitely agree that Rickard's reaction is weird if his daughter has actually been kidnapped and raped. It seems like Rickard and Rhaegar/Lyanna might have had a backdoor deal going on that Brandon skunked when he rode up and started waving his dick around [citation needed].

I think that once we know exactly what happened, a lot of the stuff that seems bizarre now (Rickard's reaction, Lyanna running off with a married man, the miscommunications, etc.) will make perfect sense. I fully believe that the actual, full narrative of what happened follows a logical, reasonable arc; it's only because we're missing information that it seems illogical to us.

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How does everyone feel about Lyanna running off with a married man? IMHO it's so low on the spectrum of bad doing in this series that it hardly registers for me.


I have always imagined that Elia wouldn't be phased by it considering Oberyn's style of having many lovers which iirc is common in Dorne. Also the vision Dany has in the House of the Undying where she sees Rhaegar say to Elia that the dragon must have three heads, I have always kind of seen this as him implying, 'if you aren't healthy enough to have another child, I'm gonna have to find someone who is.'


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How does everyone feel about Lyanna running off with a married man? IMHO it's so low on the spectrum of bad doing in this series that it hardly registers for me.

I have always imagined that Elia wouldn't be phased by it considering Oberyn's style of having many lovers which iirc is common in Dorne. Also the vision Dany has in the House of the Undying where she sees Rhaegar say to Elia that the dragon must have three heads, I have always kind of seen this as him implying, 'if you aren't healthy enough to have another child, I'm gonna have to find someone who is.'

Lol, dems the breaks B. Yeah, I don't know. One's a wolf, one's a dragon, I guess they didn't think too much of it. I'd feel worse for Elia, but I think she may have been okay knowing that she birthed the first-born son who would inherit the throne, so it didn't matter as much. Maybe? lol.

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While I don't see any holes in your theory, I personally would just prefer if there isn't some grand conspiracy behind every action in the books. It makes it a lot more interesting to me if Brandon did just react the way that he did because he was hot-headed and cared about his sister. This is perfectly in line with his character too, as we know. I think Rickard's absence can more easily be explained by the fact that a Lord of a house going down to KL would probably be seen as a more aggressive response than just Brandon going. Or maybe he was more level-headed and wanted to make sure the facts were straight before heading down himself instead of rushing off impulsively like Brandon did. Or maybe he thought that Lyanna was just f*cking around, doing some stuff in line with her wolf-blood and would show up eventually. Again, not to discredit your theory, it's plausible, I just personally prefer if it were not true, =P.

Tywin benefited by staying out of the war. I think it's highly unlikely, given Aerys' distrust and dislike of Tywin, that Aerys would have forgotten the Lannister absence from the majority of the war if the loyalists had won.

I tend to agree with the conspiracy bit.

To me, this is a very human story with all the human tragedies that go with it.

I'm not entirely ready to join the "Brandon is an idiot club" just yet. The parallels between Oberyn and Brandon are telling to me, and I think deliberate for certainly Oberyn taking on the Mountain in the manner he did was just as foolish as Brandon barn-storming KL, and Oberyn was an older, more seasoned man at this point.

And even Cersei speaks to Brandons being "born to lead." It may be that it was only in the case of his sister Lyanna that he reacted without caution whereas in other scenarios, he may have been quite cool.

His reaction reinforces for me that his actions stemmed from panic. Hosters statement "gallant fool" contains the clues to his behavior.

Gallant: "brave, courageous, valiant, bold, plucky, daring, fearless, intrepid, heroic, stouthearted, undaunted, unafraid, ....".

Fool: "one who is deficient in judgement, sense, or understanding. One who acts unwisely on a given occasion."

I think Hoster understood that Brandon wanted to "save" his sister, but the course of action he took was unwise. And as far as Rickard goes, again, another enigma.

He wasn't at Harrenhal either when his children were misbehaving.

All of the great lords were supposed to be present with the exception of himself. If Rhaegar was planning an informal "sit-down" with the lords of the realm, Rickard apparently, as far as we know now, wasn't among them. If he knew such and event was happening, he might send his heir to find out what was about rather than participate himself.

But, in terms of Brandons behavior and the seeming lack of one on Rickards part, I take if Hoster thought Brandon was foolish going off as he did, then Hoster probably knew that Rickards behaviors would have been more measured, but nonetheless, Rickard did show up to fight for his son.

And I don't think he called his banners for the same reason Torren bent the knee.

And while I like the idea that Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna, it's the what that he was he rescuing her from one year later, that is the mystery.

If it was the matter of his father fearing the KotLT, or more specifically the North, (because the KoTL was only a symbol of what Aerys feared), and what Rickard might have been up to, then why turn around and crown Rickards daughter so publically with his father Aerys sitting right there, the father he had his own tensions with?

If all smiles died, then I would imagine Aerys was frothing at the mouth.

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I tend to agree with the conspiracy bit.

To me, this is a very human story with all the human tragedies that go with it.

photo.jpg

Hmm, looks like we're not allowed to post pics on this forum? My response doesn't show up!

I'm not entirely ready to join the "Brandon is an idiot club" just yet. The parallels between Oberyn and Brandon, are telling to me, and I think deliberate for certainly Oberyn taking on the Mountain in the manner he did was just as foolish as Brandon barn-storming KL, and Oberyn was an older, more seasoned man at this point.

And even Cersei speaks to Brandons being "born to lead." It may be that it was only in the case of his sister Lyanna that he reacted without caution whereas in other scenarios, he may have been quite cool.

His reaction reinforces for me that his actions stemmed from panic. Hosters statement "gallant fool" contains the clues to his behavior.

Gallant: "brave, courageous, valiant, bold, plucky, daring, fearless, intrepid, heroic, stouthearted, undaunted, unafraid, ....".

Fool: "one who is deficient in judgement, sense, or understanding. One who acts unwisely on a given occasion."

I think Hoster understood that Brandon wanted to "save" his sister, but the course of action he took was unwise. And as far as Rickard goes, again, another enigma.

He wasn't at Harrenhal either when his children were misbehaving.

All of the great lords were supposed to be present with the exception of himself. If Rhaegar was planning an informal "sit-down" with the lords of the realm, Rickard apparently, as far as we know now, wasn't among them. If he knew such and event was happening, he might send his heir to find out what was about rather than participate himself.

But, in terms of Brandons behavior and the seeming lack of one on Rickards part, I take if Hoster thought Brandon was foolish going off as he did, then Hoster probably knew what Rickards behaviors would have been more measured, but nonetheless, Rickard did show up to fight for his son.

And I don't think he called his banners for the same reason Torren bent the knee- he didn't want to drag his people into a war he thought they couldn't win.

And while I like the idea that Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna, it's the what that he was he rescuing her from one year later, that is the mystery.

If it was the matter of his father fearing the KotLT, or more specifically the North and what Rickard might have been up to, then why turn around and crown Rickards daughter so publically with his father Aerys sitting right there, the father he had his own tensions with?

If all smiles died, then I would imagine Aerys was frothing at the mouth.

Haha, Aerys frothing at the mouth at the tourney is an entertaining image. I agree about Brandon not being an idiot. I think he just acted impulsively in this instance without thinking it through. We know he was definitely a wolf and it seems the Starks are particularly family oriented, in a world where insults/threats to family are taken pretty seriously to begin with, so I don't fault him for his rash behavior. But yeah, storming into the throne room of a king known to be cagey and easily rattled is certainly foolish. Gallant, but foolish. Rickard, I'm guessing, was likely taking the more pragmatic approach. Do we know if Ned was going to go down with Brandon as well but was held back for some reason? Or if he just didn't go out of his own self restraint?

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Any theory on who that person might have been? :)

Could you please quote the passage about Aerys wanting to name Rhaegar Hand? I can only remember he wanted to name someone young to match Robert's valor. I can't remember anything being said about Aerys wanting Rhaegar as a Hand.

It's in AFFC, at the end of the third? Jaime's POV. He's talking to Red Ronnet, JC' cousin:

Jon Connington had been Prince Rhaegar's friend. When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert's Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship.

When I've read it again I see that, actually, Jaime didn't think about Aerys naming Rhaegar his Hand. It had raised my doubts, because I gathered that Rhaegar himself was over the king's Hand, and there was no need for that. Anyhow, it seems pretty clear that Aerys' sought for Rhaegar' help, but he couldn't find him.

We could infer that their relations were ackward. Naming JC might be directed to Rhaegar as well.

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