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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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I don't think the KG battle could have taken place anywhere public, simply because there'd be too many people around and word would spread. E.g. if the battle happened at Storm's End where the loyalist forces were laying a siege, that'd be hundreds if not thousands of soldiers around and word would no doubt have spread about the epic battle, or at least the death of the greatest knight alive. Similarly for a battle around any cities. This still leaves open a million different non-public places the battle could have taken place, of course, without anyone knowing about the ToJ or anything more specific than Ned and bros killed Dayne and co. But yeah, I agree if anyone figures it out it'll be one of the three you mentioned. And damn, I gotta write two papers but now I'm intrigued about this exchange between Ned and Barristan, gonna go look that up real quick. =P

Yeah, after rereading (quickly) all mentions of Rhaegar/Dayne from Jaime and Barristan's POVs, it's unclear what they actually knew. I found it interesting that the king initially (ever?) couldn't find Rhaegar, implying that he didn't really care to know where Rhaegar was until the war started turning serious, and Rhaegar and Dayne/Whent never revealed Rhaegar's location to Aerys prior to that (or ever) either. Rhaegar was ultimately convinced to come back to KL, though it's not clear if someone convinced him, or the news of the rebellion being more serious than he previously thought was what did the trick. In either case, the KG at ToJ were up to date with all the latest happenings when Ned finds them so they did have access to the outside world. There's a number of possibilities consistent with these facts as well as the idea that no one knew about the ToJ so I won't speculate here.

What I am also curious about though is how long Ned's trip from Storm's End to Starfall to Winterfell took as compared to how long it would have normally taken a party of their size and baggage. I choose those three places because everyone knows Ned went to all three due to the number of other witnesses there. I'm not sure if the length of the trip is mentioned in the books. If the trip basically took the minimum period of time necessary I think it would eliminate a number of possibilities for where and when Ned found Lyanna and where and when Ned fought Dayne, and should make other characters a bit more suspicious, IMO. If the trip took it's jolly ol' time, all bets are off. More broad-based speculation on my part. I'm definitely doing a reread after finals.

That's a good point. It was Aerys who hasn't in touch with Rhaegar, in both literall and figured senses. Those in ToJ seemed to have a rather fluent communication with those they wanted to.

I agree that possibilities are plenty. Thee first (in time) is Rhaegar plotting against Aerys. At least it seems Aerys thought Rhaegar was plotting against him. Add the JC thing. Aerys named him Hand, and dismissed him when he lost a battle, while Rhaegar hadn't show up yet... I'll leave it here too.

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Hmm, looks like we're not allowed to post pics on this forum? My response doesn't show up!

Haha, Aerys frothing at the mouth at the tourney is an entertaining image. I agree about Brandon not being an idiot. I think he just acted impulsively in this instance without thinking it through. We know he was definitely a wolf and it seems the Starks are particularly family oriented, in a world where insults/threats to family are taken pretty seriously to begin with, so I don't fault him for his rash behavior. But yeah, storming into the throne room of a king known to be cagey and easily rattled is certainly foolish. Gallant, but foolish. Rickard, I'm guessing, was likely taking the more pragmatic approach. Do we know if Ned was going to go down with Brandon as well but was held back for some reason? Or if he just didn't go out of his own self restraint?

With hindsight, Ned blamed it all on the "wolf's blood". Thinking about his brother and sister, I guess poor old Ned might be right for once.

What did Ygritte and Jon said to each other at the Queen's Tower? Sort of "we'll die, but first we live." That's all.

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I always thought LF as well, but GRRM seems to have debunked that in recent comments about what LF did after his duel with Brandon. Iirc, he answered a question (probably posed with this scenario in mind) about LF by saying that he had been near death and then was sent home in a litter by Lord Hoster. As much as the information he offered seems non committal, it was his bemused tone at the question that I thought put LF out of the running in this horse race. Maybe someone can fish the ref?

Varys is interesting though. Or alternatively, just simple smallfolk who inevitably get everything wrong.

Wasn't Brandon on his way from Winterfell to Riverrun when he heard the news? Either that, or he had just arrived at Riverrun, since he had an argument with Hoster Tully about it right before he left. During such a journey, he would most certainly have encountered small folk. And the tales they sometimes tell, can go pretty far. I think if enough people repeated the same story (Lyanna was kidnapped) Brandon, already hot-headed, would have believed it. So that might indeed be a very nice possibility.

How does everyone feel about Lyanna running off with a married man? IMHO it's so low on the spectrum of bad doing in this series that it hardly registers for me.

I have always imagined that Elia wouldn't be phased by it considering Oberyn's style of having many lovers which iirc is common in Dorne. Also the vision Dany has in the House of the Undying where she sees Rhaegar say to Elia that the dragon must have three heads, I have always kind of seen this as him implying, 'if you aren't healthy enough to have another child, I'm gonna have to find someone who is.'

I can't imagine Elia being fine about Rhaegar running off with another woman, even though she's from Dorne. They were husband and wife, after all, and he left her very shortly after she gave birth, abandoning not only her, but also their children. I can imagine Elia eventually not caring about Rhaegar and their marriage anymore, in terms of whether or not Rhaegar would have a paramour, but publicly running off with another person, that is a slight, that is dishonour.

It's in AFFC, at the end of the third? Jaime's POV. He's talking to Red Ronnet, JC' cousin:

Jon Connington had been Prince Rhaegar's friend. When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert's Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship.

When I've read it again I see that, actually, Jaime didn't think about Aerys naming Rhaegar his Hand. It had raised my doubts, because I gathered that Rhaegar himself was over the king's Hand, and there was no need for that. Anyhow, it seems pretty clear that Aerys' sought for Rhaegar' help, but he couldn't find him.

We could infer that their relations were ackward. Naming JC might be directed to Rhaegar as well.

Hmm.. I don't read this as Aerys wanting to name Rhaegar hand, but Aerys definitly wanted Rhaegar's help. JonCon was the best thing he could find, someone as young as Robert, who was known to be fierce in battle. I have no doubt that the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar could have been better. Didn't Barristan once think to himself that Aerys no longer trusted either Rhaegar or Rhaella? And that was a few years before the Rebellion. Though in his desperate times during the Rebelion, I can see how Aerys could "forget" for a moment that he didn't completely trust his son :p

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Wasn't Brandon on his way from Winterfell to Riverrun when he heard the news? Either that, or he had just arrived at Riverrun, since he had an argument with Hoster Tully about it right before he left. During such a journey, he would most certainly have encountered small folk. And the tales they sometimes tell, can go pretty far. I think if enough people repeated the same story (Lyanna was kidnapped) Brandon, already hot-headed, would have believed it. So that might indeed be a very nice possibility.

He was in Riverrun, then left for some errand and heard about Lyanna on his way back; Hoster's reaction is after he learned what happened at KL.

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Wasn't Brandon on his way from Winterfell to Riverrun when he heard the news? Either that, or he had just arrived at Riverrun, since he had an argument with Hoster Tully about it right before he left. During such a journey, he would most certainly have encountered small folk. And the tales they sometimes tell, can go pretty far. I think if enough people repeated the same story (Lyanna was kidnapped) Brandon, already hot-headed, would have believed it. So that might indeed be a very nice possibility.

I can't imagine Elia being fine about Rhaegar running off with another woman, even though she's from Dorne. They were husband and wife, after all, and he left her very shortly after she gave birth, abandoning not only her, but also their children. I can imagine Elia eventually not caring about Rhaegar and their marriage anymore, in terms of whether or not Rhaegar would have a paramour, but publicly running off with another person, that is a slight, that is dishonour.

Hmm.. I don't read this as Aerys wanting to name Rhaegar hand, but Aerys definitly wanted Rhaegar's help. JonCon was the best thing he could find, someone as young as Robert, who was known to be fierce in battle. I have no doubt that the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar could have been better. Didn't Barristan once think to himself that Aerys no longer trusted either Rhaegar or Rhaella? And that was a few years before the Rebellion. Though in his desperate times during the Rebelion, I can see how Aerys could "forget" for a moment that he didn't completely trust his son :P

Definitely, Crown Prince and king's Hand are redundant, only the wording might be misleading. Let's recap.

There wasn't good feeling between Aerys and Rhaegar.

Merryweather wasn't fit to stem RR.

Under the circumstances, Aerys would put aside their feuds, and join forces with Rhaegar, but he couldn't find him.

Aerys names JC his Hand.

JC loses a battle.

Rhaegar doesn't show up yet.

Aerys sacks JC.

"Something" changes.

Hightower is sent to fetch Rhaegar. This time, he founds him, anyhow.

Rhaegar comes back to KL. Hightower and two KG keep being away. JC is still punished.

That's what he have. I've tried to stick to the facts, and I feel some pieces are missing. I can imagine different storylines, but for this time I'd rather avoid this, and gather what is actually in the books, not in my mind. I might have skipped something important. You're welcome to fill the gaps.

On other thoughts, when browsing Jaime's musing, I've found this. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night.

It's an open door to many a reflection, but that's another story.

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"Something" changes.

Hightower is sent to fetch Rhaegar. This time, he founds him, anyhow.

Rhaegar comes back to KL. Hightower and two KG keep being away. JC is still punished.

Hmm, who's POV do we learn this from? If it's Jaime or Barristan it raises the same questions as before in terms of why they haven't wondered why Rhaegar would return at this point but The Bull would stay out of such an important battle. Perhaps they thought Hightower went to go looking for Dayne and Whent?

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Hmm, who's POV do we learn this from? If it's Jaime or Barristan it raises the same questions as before in terms of why they haven't wondered why Rhaegar would return at this point but The Bull would stay out of such an important battle. Perhaps they thought Hightower went to go looking for Dayne and Whent?

I think Rhaegar must have made clear that he ordered Hightower, Dayne and Whent to protect Lyanna. I would love to see Aerys' expression hearing that :D - unless it was a part of an arrangement agreed between him and Rhaegar even prior his return.

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I think Rhaegar must have made clear that he ordered Hightower, Dayne and Whent to protect Lyanna. I would love to see Aerys' expression hearing that :D - unless it was a part of an arrangement agreed between him and Rhaegar even prior his return.

I can believe he must have ordered Hightower to stay behind, if they hadn't agreed beforehand. But what did he tell Jaime/Barristan (whoever's POV that was) for why The Bull didn't come back to fight this important battle with him? That must have been at least slightly suspicious? Why guard the Stark girl when the kingdom was in jeopardy. Although, I guess Rhaegar himself seemed pretty nonchalant about the battle and could have convinced Jaime/Barristan that the other three KG were on a more important mission than swatting this fly of a rebellion down. So many questions! lol

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I can believe he must have ordered Hightower to stay behind, if they hadn't agreed beforehand. But what did he tell Jaime/Barristan (whoever's POV that was) for why The Bull didn't come back to fight this important battle with him? That must have been at least slightly suspicious? Why guard the Stark girl when the kingdom was in jeopardy. Although, I guess Rhaegar himself seemed pretty nonchalant about the battle and could have convinced Jaime/Barristan that the other three KG were on a more important mission than swatting this fly of a rebellion down. So many questions! lol

All he has to say is "I gave them another task". Thats it. They don't get to question his orders, so long as their primary functions are being fulfilled.

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All he has to say is "I gave them another task". Thats it. They don't get to question his orders, so long as their primary functions are being fulfilled.

I get that part. Of course they wouldn't question him publicly. But given that we have access to the inner thoughts of both Jaime and Barristan and that they've thought about the events surrounding the Trident enough times within what we've read, you'd think at least one of them would have thought "I wonder why Rhaegar gave the LC of the KG "another task" at such a critical juncture in the rebellion. What could have been more important than this battle?"

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I get that part. Of course they wouldn't question him publicly. But given that we have access to the inner thoughts of both Jaime and Barristan and that they've thought about the events surrounding the Trident enough times within what we've read, you'd think at least one of them would have thought "I wonder why Rhaegar gave the LC of the KG "another task" at such a critical juncture in the rebellion. What could have been more important than this battle?"

Neither Jaime nor Barristan seem to be thinking about Gerold Hightower at all. The only time Barristan starts to remember Hightower is in the sample chapter - perhaps an indication that at least Barristan is going to be thinking about it in WoW?

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Neither Jaime nor Barristan seem to be thinking about Gerold Hightower at all. The only time Barristan starts to remember Hightower is in the sample chapter - perhaps an indication that at least Barristan is going to be thinking about it in WoW?

That's why I'm curious from who's point of view we learned that Hightower was sent to retrieve Rhaegar. That they don't think of Hightower's absence is what I find a little odd. Even something as simple as "if The Bull or Sword of the Morning had been at the Trident, how the different the battle might have been..." That thought could have been thought by anyone, actually, as it requires no knowledge of anything except the fact that they weren't there.

I hope you're right about the indication, I can't wait!

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That's why I'm curious from who's point of view we learned that Hightower was sent to retrieve Rhaegar. That they don't think of Hightower's absence is what I find a little odd. Even something as simple as "if The Bull or Sword of the Morning had been at the Trident, how the different the battle might have been..." That thought could have been thought by anyone, actually, as it requires no knowledge of anything except the fact that they weren't there.

I hope you're right about the indication, I can't wait!

Barristan was at the Trident, and saw two other White Swords perish, as he himself was sorely wounded. I don't think that he places the worth of the missing members of the Kingsguard at fault for the failure at the Trident. At least there is no indication that he has any thoughts for them. The closest he gets is his respect for Ned, I suspect because of the rumor of Ned defeating the Morning Star in single combat. (I have always felt that Jaime baiting Ned was so that he could change his reputation from Kingslayer to best swordsman, by defeating the slayer of Ser Arthur.)

Rhaegar was not able to be found. Aerys dispatched Hightower to find and retrieve Rhaegar when things looked pretty bad for the loyalists. If there were bad feelings between Aerys and Rhaegar, this search and desire to have Rhaegar does not make sense. So, the tension between Rhaegar and Aerys seems pretty much limited to the time surrounding Harrenhal and Varys stirring the pot.

Hightower is sent for Rhaegar, and eventually finds him with his routine bodyguard of Dayne and Whent. Rhaegar tasks Hightower with guarding Lyanna until he returns, since if Gerrold returns to King's Landing it is unlikely that the secret will remain secret. Rhaegar then takes Whent and Dayne as his bodyguards until he reaches King's Landing, then he sends them back to the tower. (This makes a lot of sense to me on how we end up with the arrangement at the tower.)

The other White Swords are in no position to question the king or the crown prince. The only one that comes close is Jaime, when he asks to go with Rhaegar, and leave another brother in his stead. So, I would say that they, any of them, questioning where the missing White Swords are is extremely unlikely. Barristan may think about it in tWoW, I certainly hope so, but he has not as far as we know, now.

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Hightower is sent for Rhaegar, and eventually finds him with his routine bodyguard of Dayne and Whent. Rhaegar tasks Hightower with guarding Lyanna until he returns, since if Gerrold returns to King's Landing it is unlikely that the secret will remain secret. Rhaegar then takes Whent and Dayne as his bodyguards until he reaches King's Landing, then he sends them back to the tower. (This makes a lot of sense to me on how we end up with the arrangement at the tower.)

That's what I think, as well. They may not even have travelled as far as KL, though - there were loyalist forces at Storms' End where Rhaegar could easily have switched entourage and send his KG back, without them getting anywhere near Aerys or any orders that he might have dispatched.

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Just a thought here. There is an assumption that the King's Guard were guarding the Tower of Joy at Rhaegar's behest because there was a Targaryen prince within. Rhaegar died at the Trident before Aerys the King. What if this episode has been read wrongly and that the King's Guard were there to slay Lyanna and the boy on Aerys' orders?


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Just a thought here. There is an assumption that the King's Guard were guarding the Tower of Joy at Rhaegar's behest because there was a Targaryen prince within. Rhaegar died at the Trident before Aerys the King. What if this episode has been read wrongly and that the King's Guard were there to slay Lyanna and the boy on Aerys' orders?

What kept them from doing so, then? It takes only a short moment to kill someone, they would have managed long before Ned arrived.

If the KG acted on Aerys' orders, the logical thing to do would be to drag Lyanna elsewhere and notify Ned and Robert that they are immediately to surrender, or else!

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Oh, its just a slightly provocative thought and its possible that the news of Aerys death overtook them on the road, hence their rather fatalistic last stand. Otherwise, as discussed above, it seems strange that they should be carrying out orders from Rhaegar at a time when Aerys is still alive - and in need of their services - and when the undoubted heir, young Aegon, is at King's landing


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Hightower is sent for Rhaegar, and eventually finds him with his routine bodyguard of Dayne and Whent. Rhaegar tasks Hightower with guarding Lyanna until he returns, since if Gerrold returns to King's Landing it is unlikely that the secret will remain secret. Rhaegar then takes Whent and Dayne as his bodyguards until he reaches King's Landing, then he sends them back to the tower. (This makes a lot of sense to me on how we end up with the arrangement at the tower.)

The other White Swords are in no position to question the king or the crown prince. The only one that comes close is Jaime, when he asks to go with Rhaegar, and leave another brother in his stead. So, I would say that they, any of them, questioning where the missing White Swords are is extremely unlikely. Barristan may think about it in tWoW, I certainly hope so, but he has not as far as we know, now.

Them not thinking about whether the KG would have made a difference at the Trident makes sense since it was Robert vs. Rhaegar in single combat that ended up deciding the battle, so on second thought, I think you're right about that. And I think the explanation about Hightower and Rhaegar makes sense logistically and I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happened. But if Dayne and Whent did escort Rhaegar back and were seen back at KL, that only exacerbates the issue.

Again, I'm not saying the KG would have questioned Rhaegar or the king. I'm just curious about why either Jamie or Barristan (whoever was aware that Hightower went to look for Rhaegar but didn't come back with him and possibly saw Dayne/Whent at KL) hasn't wondered about what could prompt Rhaegar/the king to order 1-3 of the best knights in the kingdom to do "something else" instead of fight in an important battle during a point in the war where the loyalists were clearly in trouble. Just because they wouldn't question the king doesn't mean they can't ask themselves the question in their own heads. How has neither of them thought about this to themselves when we've been witness to them thinking about the events surrounding the Trident multiple times, and we know that Barristan, and to a certain extent Jamie as well, are both thoughtful people.

It's the knowledge that Hightower went but didn't come back, and possibly that Dayne/Whent were seen in KL right before the Trident but didn't go to the battle that's the real issue. If Jamie/Barristan/any other witnesses were in the dark about where Hightower, Dayne and Whent were for the entire war, it would be an easier pill to swallow.

Just a thought here. There is an assumption that the King's Guard were guarding the Tower of Joy at Rhaegar's behest because there was a Targaryen prince within. Rhaegar died at the Trident before Aerys the King. What if this episode has been read wrongly and that the King's Guard were there to slay Lyanna and the boy on Aerys' orders?

For what purpose? The boy wasn't a threat to the throne as Aegon had already been born.

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