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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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If married to Raeghar - as most of us suspect - she was not only princess but Crown princess.

Hmm. I'm still not sure about it. I believe, alongside with most of you, that Lyanna and Rhaegar had secretly wed. But if that would automatically make her a princess? I'm not sure.

Rhaegar had married Princess Elia - Who already was a princess before she was wed. Other Targaryens usually married their sisters - also already Princesses.

But, for example, Prince Doran married Mellario - who stays a Lady, and does not become a Princess.

Princess Rhaenys has a daughter, who is a lady. This daughter (Laena) marries a Prince, Daemon, but stays a lady, just like their daughters become ladies.

Should Lyanna (and only Lyanna) have wed Rhaegar, I don't think she would have become a princess - Though she would most certainly have become Queen after Rhaegars coronation. I think women who marry to Princes in Westeros don't become Princesses. The title Princess would suggest you have royal blood, and of that Lyanna had none.

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Hmm. I'm still not sure about it. I believe, alongside with most of you, that Lyanna and Rhaegar had secretly wed. But if that would automatically make her a princess? I'm not sure.

Rhaegar had married Princess Elia - Who already was a princess before she was wed. Other Targaryens usually married their sisters - also already Princesses.

But, for example, Prince Doran married Mellario - who stays a Lady, and does not become a Princess.

Princess Rhaenys has a daughter, who is a lady. This daughter (Laena) marries a Prince, Daemon, but stays a lady, just like their daughters become ladies.

Should Lyanna (and only Lyanna) have wed Rhaegar, I don't think she would have become a princess - Though she would most certainly have become Queen after Rhaegars coronation. I think women who marry to Princes in Westeros don't become Princesses. The title Princess would suggest you have royal blood, and of that Lyanna had none.

I think that a woman who marries a prince, becomes a princess, whether in our world or in Westeros. I see no reason to believe otherwise. She was definitely not a queen (because her husband was never a king), but she was a princess.

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I think that a woman who marries a prince, becomes a princess, whether in our world or in Westeros. I see no reason to believe otherwise. She was definitely not a queen (because her husband was never a king), but she was a princess.

I never said she was a queen :) But explain why Lady Mellario doesn't become Princess Melario upon marrying Prince Doran?

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I never said she was a queen :) But explain why Lady Mellario doesn't become Princess Melario upon marrying Prince Doran?

Because a royal prince is something different from a ruling prince. These two use the same word but mean some different things - the first is the son of a monarch, the second the ruler of a principality.

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Because a royal prince is something different from a ruling prince. These two use the same word but mean some different things - the first is the son of a monarch, the second the ruler of a principality.

Princess Rhaenys was from the main branch of the Targaryen line. She married Lord Corlys Velaryon. Corlys never got the title of Prince, nor did their children become Princes or Princesses. Rhaenys was, however, a royal Princess.

Upon marrying Prince Daemon, from the ruling line of House Targaryen, Lady Laena did not become Princess Laena.

These are two examples of royalties.

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Hmm. I'm still not sure about it. I believe, alongside with most of you, that Lyanna and Rhaegar had secretly wed. But if that would automatically make her a princess? I'm not sure.

Rhaegar had married Princess Elia - Who already was a princess before she was wed. Other Targaryens usually married their sisters - also already Princesses.

But, for example, Prince Doran married Mellario - who stays a Lady, and does not become a Princess.

Princess Rhaenys has a daughter, who is a lady. This daughter (Laena) marries a Prince, Daemon, but stays a lady, just like their daughters become ladies.

Should Lyanna (and only Lyanna) have wed Rhaegar, I don't think she would have become a princess - Though she would most certainly have become Queen after Rhaegars coronation. I think women who marry to Princes in Westeros don't become Princesses. The title Princess would suggest you have royal blood, and of that Lyanna had none.

I think her ancestors, the Kings of Winter, would beg to differ.

Her ancestors were kings while Rhaegars were still herding sheep.

Its all the difference a dragon makes.😉

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Princess Rhaenys was from the main branch of the Targaryen line. She married Lord Corlys Velaryon. Corlys never got the title of Prince, nor did their children become Princes or Princesses. Rhaenys was, however, a royal Princess.

Upon marrying Prince Daemon, at that moment from the ruling line of House Targaryen, Lady Laena did not become Princess Laena.

These are two examples of royalties.

I'm not sure we can say with certainty that Laena wasn't called Princess. She's only mentioned in passing after all. She was a Lady first and that may have just been common usage, and of course you have to consider the prejudices and motives of the historian.

In the case of Corlys Velaryon, I don't think it works that way for male consorts- a Queen's husband does not get to be King for instance. Maybe a better example is the royal family of England- Prince Charles' wife became the Princess of Wales. His sister Princess Anne's husband did not become a Prince.

Generally I think these matters are worked out at the time of the marriage. I don't think we should rule out that Lyanna would have been deemed a princess, or that she was considered one by Rhaegar and his KG.

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I'm not sure we can say with certainty that Laena wasn't called Princess. She's only mentioned in passing after all. She was a Lady first and that may have just been common usage, and of course you have to consider the prejudices and motives of the historian.

In the case of Corlys Velaryon, I don't think it works that way for male consorts- a Queen's husband does not get to be King for instance. Maybe a better example is the royal family of England- Prince Charles' wife became the Princess of Wales. His sister Princess Anne's husband did not become a Prince.

Generally I think these matters are worked out at the time of the marriage. I don't think we should rule out that Lyanna would have been deemed a princess, or that she was considered one by Rhaegar and his KG.

Good point. It was probably a case by case basis. As you say, it's definitely possible that Lyanna was considered a princess.

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I see you've been doing interesting reflexion about the coming back of Rhaegar from ToJ. That's good.



Let me raise some concerns, that aren't clear yet.



Did Hightower search for Rhaegar? If so, I find it somewhat unrealistic that he found him, while Rhaegar was hidding. Just see how difficult it was to Brienne to find even the scent of Sansa or Arya.


But we've taken that Rhaegar was in touch with the rest of the world. It'd hadve been easier for Hightower if he knew where to go.


But, again, if he knew where to go, he must have been sent in order to escort to Rhaegar KL. We know nothing of an escort, the 3 KG remained at ToJ. Was the LC of the KG used as a common courier?


Then, Rhaegar supposedly commanded them to stay. Why did he do so? In the highest of a serious rebellion was it more important to guard a pregnant second wife that escorting the Crown Prince and Commander of the host?


Forget about Jon, there was no Jon yet. It could be a miscarriage, be stillborn, who knows. Or it could have been a girl that, at the eyes of the characters, was a very different thing.



I could say more, but let's leave it here.


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I'm not sure we can say with certainty that Laena wasn't called Princess. She's only mentioned in passing after all. She was a Lady first and that may have just been common usage, and of course you have to consider the prejudices and motives of the historian.

In the case of Corlys Velaryon, I don't think it works that way for male consorts- a Queen's husband does not get to be King for instance. Maybe a better example is the royal family of England- Prince Charles' wife became the Princess of Wales. His sister Princess Anne's husband did not become a Prince.

Generally I think these matters are worked out at the time of the marriage. I don't think we should rule out that Lyanna would have been deemed a princess, or that she was considered one by Rhaegar and his KG.

Prince Charles' first wife became the Princess of Wales, but his second wife Camilla Parker-Bowels is styled as the Duchess of Cornwall, the Duchy of Cornwall being one of Prince Charles' other holdings. Even though they married after Diana was already dead, they gave Camilla a different title out of respect for Diana's memory and to honor her position the mother to the heir of the throne. Of course, a lot of that had to do with the fact that the public perception of Camilla and Charles was incredibly negative at the time. Everyone knew that Diana blamed Charles and Camilla's affair for the failure of her marriage and it was untenable to the public that she would take Diana's formal title too. It was uncharted territory, so to speak.

With regards to Lyanna, I would imagine that her title might depend on whether or not she was the sole wife, or if it was a polygamous marriage. If she's the second wife, she might not be styled as Princess of Dragonstone, but may be given a different title until she's queen. Since we don't really know how polygamy works in Westeros as far as rank or precedent, I imagine it would be hard to say. IRL, I know that in some monarchy's that practiced polygamy (like Morocco or Thailand) there would be a "chief wife," (usually the first wife and/or the mother of the heir to the throne) who would take precedent in public over the other wives. But in other monarchies, all the wives were equal.

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If we take the current British monarchy as example, then Laena might not have been called a Princess. In Britain, the title+name go with the holding. If the husband is a prince but has no holdings, there are situations like Princess Michael of Kent. Since we know of only two other Targaryen holdings and one of them was built about 50 years after the Dance of Dragons and the other one went to Rhaenyra, I think Daemon had no holdings, just his title. This way, Laena would have been a princess of... basically nothing. Given the fact that her parents were quite an impressive couple and that she had been a claimant for the Iron Throne once, she might have decided that she was better off as Lady Laena than Princess Daemon.



With Lyanna, it would depend on how the title of the Princess of Dragonstone would have been distrubuted. Without it, she could not be styled Princess, unlike Elia, who was born one.



By the way, Camilla Parker Bowles is the Princess of Wales. She just chose, wisely, to go with the lesser style. If she changes her mind, she can assume her proper style as early as tomorrow. Frankly, I can't see her as more scandalous than the first English woman who bore the title - Joan of Kent. Her marital story outdid the one of the avatar of lareine's by far. She was simply lucky that in her time, there were no media involved and royal (bad) PR was somewhat restricted compared to today's.



By the way, this topic reminded me of one of my favourite Punch cartoons: King George V, in full royal regalia, crown on his head and broom in his hand, sweeps away all German titles of his now Windsor family. :lol:


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I don't think it is ever mentioned that Dayne and Whent came back to KL with Rhaegar. I don't know why you think that they did.

I agree with you, here. It makes sense to me that Ned and company left Starfall via ship and returned to Winterfell from some west coast landing. The next time Ned saw Robert was during the Greyjoy Rebellion, in all probability. That allows Ned a chance to work up how to explain Jon without arousing too much inquisitiveness from his friend Robert.

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I agree with you, here. It makes sense to me that Ned and company left Starfall via ship and returned to Winterfell from some west coast landing. The next time Ned saw Robert was during the Greyjoy Rebellion, in all probability. That allows Ned a chance to work up how to explain Jon without arousing too much inquisitiveness from his friend Robert.

But only their shared grief over Lyanna brought Ned and Robert to reconciling. So I guess Ned passed KL on his way back North? He would have had to tell Robert Lyanna had died anyway. That's not something you tell a man by letter.

The fact that Ned knows how Rhaegar had named the Tower, suggests that there were other people besides the three KG where Rhaegar had been all that time. Perhaps Ned learned some information regarding Lyanna's location at Storm's End after lifting the siege? I doubt Ned would have bothered lifting the siege first if he had known where Lyanna was before then.

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As far as Lyanna actually being a princess goes, I think it would probably just depend on who you ask. I'm sure the rebels and most likely Dorne would not like that idea, yet otoh if they really got married, then I'm certain the KG treated her like a princees, and I'm sure Rhaegar did as well, and fully intended to have the rest of the realm treat her as such too. If Rhaegar was operating under the rules of Targ poly marriage then Lyanna was without a doubt a princess, when Targaryen kings took multiple wives both wives were considered queens, so I don't really see why the same rules wouldn't apply to a princess? But again, that's only if they really did secretely marry. If and when R+L=J is finally revealed in the story It will be interesting to see how detailed GRRM will be about what Rhaegar's intetnions/plans for Lyanna were.


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As far as Lyanna actually being a princess goes, I think it would probably just depend on who you ask. I'm sure the rebels and most likely Dorne would not like that idea, yet otoh if they really got married, then I'm certain the KG treated her like a princees, and I'm sure Rhaegar did as well, and fully intended to have the rest of the realm treat her as such too. If Rhaegar was operating under the rules of Targ poly marriage then Lyanna was without a doubt a princess, when Targaryen kings took multiple wives both wives were considered queens, so I don't really see why the same rules wouldn't apply to a princess? But again, that's only if they really did secretely marry. If and when R+L=J is finally revealed in the story It will be interesting to see how detailed GRRM will be about what Rhaegar's intetnions/plans for Lyanna were.

I have a feeling we will never know the truth of the whole story because even though Howland is alive I am sure he wouldn't know Rhaegar's intentions.

Benjen might know something about Lyanna though.

Maybe Ashara too but I think shes dead.

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I have a feeling we will never know the truth of the whole story because even though Howland is alive I am sure he wouldn't know Rhaegar's intentions.

Benjen might know something about Lyanna though.

Maybe Ashara too but I think shes dead.

I'd confide in a thousand eyes, and one ;)

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