R+L=J v 66

[Ygrain]

/a little OT/ :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAsCt4GF6WU&list=PLoE-XW5HuJ9oUIeObLzPn3Lnd-phzEOU2&feature=mh_lolz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOQsYk8cbnE&list=PLoE-XW5HuJ9rvnt6D-8ju9V95mjPjJMLt

Not sure if I have posted the second one here or not, but, enjoy anyway, I hope

[Alia of the knife]

Regarding the matter of royal blood amongst the Westerosi prior to the Targaryens arrival, I do think that in terms of the geo-political themes, the possible resentment of some are underlying reasons for the desire to rebel, and as has been pointed out, Rhaegar and Lyanna only became the excuse.

Some may have excepted the Targaryens, and I do think for awhile, the Starks did and were loyal, but as they did not seem to support either side during the civil war and were not punished or penalized, it seems that the Targaryens also left them be. But after enough wars, madness and the flipping of coins, and finally, the loss of the dragons, many of them may have nursed the idea of ruling themselves again, with perhaps the exception of the Lannisters and Tyrells who similarly and ironically were not royal as both families either tricked, or betrayed their way into power.

I can't remember if it was Jon Stargaryan, or Jon Icefyre who brought up the British Heptarchy that existed prior to the arrival of the Normans, but those Kingdoms seem to be a direct influence on Martins writings.

This is a map that I took a picture of from the most recent book I'm reading on the Norman Conquest told from the standpoint of a Breton Knight.

http://web.mail.comcast.net/service/home/~/1210131400.jpg?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=446886&part=2

But, you can see at the bottom, the body of water that separates the British Isles from Normandy, and Brittany, is actually called The Narrow Sea.

[Alia of the knife]

/a little OT/ :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAsCt4GF6WU&list=PLoE-XW5HuJ9oUIeObLzPn3Lnd-phzEOU2&feature=mh_lolz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOQsYk8cbnE&list=PLoE-XW5HuJ9rvnt6D-8ju9V95mjPjJMLt

Not sure if I have posted the second one here or not, but, enjoy anyway, I hope

Really loved the first one.

[alienarea]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

Cool story, bro.

[MtnLion]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

So, that is what he agonizes over keeping secret and living lies for fifteen years about? Wow!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

And absolutely none of that makes as much sense as R+L=J.

[J. Stargaryen]

And absolutely none of that makes as much sense as R+L=J.

That's an especially diplomatic way to describe the contents of AA's post. I have other words for it. Use your imagination.

[Lyse Stark]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

And I give this a big fat :thumbsdown: :rolleyes:

[Alia of the knife]

And I give this a big fat :thumbsdown: :rolleyes:

Agreed and leaving.

[Techelles]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

This is why Lyanna had fear in her eyes that did not leave until Ned swore? She didn't want people to know her dead baby had a lizard tail? Because what would they think then! No wonder Ned was so haunted.

[Ygrain]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

Hear, hear! Drogo was a secret Targaryen!

Now, really: neither "pregnant from a Targ", nor "Targ women" builds a concise argument, nor do two known cases within 300 years make an argument for "uncommon".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

Two children with defect born into a family over 170 years in a family with many children and lots of inbreeding, is not that much. It especially is not enough to assume that it is a common event.

[Arya kiddin']

There is a reason R+L =J is a theory so prevalent. Unless anyone has something decisive or solid, that can not just explain the "how" but also the "why" of the events - that is their bearing on the plot, such opinions don't have much merit. People should refrain from posting anti arguments only for the sake of arguments.

[J. Stargaryen]

There is a reason R+L =J is a theory so prevalent. Unless anyone has something decisive or solid, that can not just explain the "how" but also the "why" of the events - that is their bearing on the plot, such opinions don't have much merit. People should refrain from posting anti arguments only for the sake of arguments.

Right. Not only is it a logically unsound argument, but it holds R+L=J to a ridiculous double standard.

[MtnLion]

Courtesy Flush!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I don't know if someone already posted this once, but since this is version 66 of this thread, it has most likely been pointed out before.

Still, I thought I'd share this post someone else made on another thread today:

Haha, doing another re-listen, started AGOT today and was listening to it while walking around the city centre. Suddenly realized that in one chapter we get Jon being annoyed by the fact that Joffrey is younger than he and Robb, but taller than they are. Then a while later Jon is exclaiming that bastards grow faster than other children, maester Luwin says so... Oh, might be true! Giggled like an idiot next to other people waiting at the pedestrian traffic lights.

Perhaps one more argument for R+L being married... :D

I read that part so many times in the books, and yet, I never made the connection :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't know if someone already posted this once, but since this is version 66 of this thread, it has most likely been pointed out before.

Still, I thought I'd share this post someone else made on another thread today:

I read that part so many times in the books, and yet, I never made the connection :)

That's actually very clever and I hadn't noticed it before. Most people, including me, home in on the "bastards aren't allowed to fight princes" thing, which seems to relate to Jon and Joffrey, and does, only reversed.

[Han Snow]

From TP&TQ we learn that it is not uncommon for women being pregnant from a Targaryen

to give birth to children with genetic defects

.

Now all your precious arguments about the bed of blood proving that Lyanna was pregnant and gave birth (maybe), the KG being there, the dialogue with Ned and so on do not exclude that Lyanna gave birth

to a stillborn child with defects that killed her (the dragon has three heads!) and

she is so ashamed of it that she asks Ned to promise never to tell this.

And that is why R+L=J is still only a theory.

It seems to me you have a problem with R+L=J theory, some kind of a personal grudge against it, so you are wishing hard with that little heart of yours that it doesn't come true. But stuff like this that you like to post won't make it go away, or change the fact it is the most credible theory out there. And I hope the actual revelation in the future books doesn't deter you from enjoying the them.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It seems to me you have a problem with R+L=J theory, some kind of a personal grudge against it, so you are wishing hard with that little heart of yours that it doesn't come true. But stuff like this that you like to post won't make it go away, or change the fact it is the most credible theory out there. And I hope the actual revelation in the future books doesn't deter you from enjoying the them.

Oh to be a fly on the wall of the contrarian brigade when this theory is finally confirmed in-text.