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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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Back to the twins discussion from a few days ago, I just noticed a pair of twins of Targ descent cleverly disguised as Baratheons:

"Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock..."

I am not a big fan of that theory but... the king siring bastard twins at CR, on a serving wench to boot, when Aerys called Tywin a servant while declining the Rhaegar-Cersei match? The foreshadowing seems strong with that one.

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I am not a big fan of that theory but... the king siring bastard twins at CR, on a serving wench to boot, when Aerys called Tywin a servant while declining the Rhaegar-Cersei match? The foreshadowing seems strong with that one.

And I think it's certainly possible that with the Targaryen history of twins, Jon Snow might have a increased chance of having them himself.

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And I think it's certainly possible that with the Targaryen history of twins, Jon Snow might have a increased chance of having them himself.

Eh I really think that if there's anything to the twin thing, it refers to Jaime and Cersei, not Jon. Jon's story might be "Star Wars"-ish but that not much.

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Eh I really think that if there's anything to the twin thing, it refers to Jaime and Cersei, not Jon. Jon's story might be "Star Wars"-ish but that not much.

I have to agree. If Jon had a twin, I believe Lyanna would have made Ned promise to protect him/her as well, and Ned would have raised the child at WF alongside Jon. I don't see what a hidden twin for Jon would do at this point in terms of how it would contribute to the story.

Besides, if we follow the Aegon parallel with Rhaegar who also had two wives, the more warrior wife bore only one son.

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And I think it's certainly possible that with the Targaryen history of twins, Jon Snow might have a increased chance of having them himself.

Could be.

Eh I really think that if there's anything to the twin thing, it refers to Jaime and Cersei, not Jon. Jon's story might be "Star Wars"-ish but that not much.

Lyse Stark was trying to say that there would be an increased chance for Jon Snow, when he (if he ever) get's married, to have twins himself. Not that he's part of a twin.

Where would Jaime and Cersei come into this whole twin thing? They aren't Targaryens, of descendants of Targaryens.

I know it's not confirmed, but I'm starting to wonder if Laenor and Laena are also meant to be twins. The similarity in their names and the fact that they're both dead sort of suggests some symmetry.

It's possible that Laenor and Laena were twins, if only for the names, though that will not say all. In any case, Laena was most likely the elder one of the two, either when simply having been siblings born a year or more appart, or being twins (with Laena having been born first, like Cersei, and Laenor second, like Jaime). But the fact that they are both death does not mean anything in the twin department. When one twin dies, it doesn't mean the other twin has to die as well.

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Where would Jaime and Cersei come into this whole twin thing? They aren't Targaryens, of descendants of Targaryens.

They are not... officially ;)

Have a look at the last post of theguyfromtheVale. 'Gourmet' food for thoughts :bowdown:

Oh to be a fly on the wall of the contrarian brigade when this theory is finally confirmed in-text.

A dragonfly, mayhaps? :lol:

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They are not... officially ;)

Have a look at the last post of theguyfromtheVale. 'Gourmet' food for thoughts :bowdown:

Yeah, I read that one. :) But you're going to need to help me, I'm not seeing what you are trying to tell me. Perhaps because I have an exam in an hour and my thoughts are completely elsewhere, but still..

Loving the Targaryen-blood bastards by a serving wench though :)

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Yeah, I read that one. :) But you're going to need to help me, I'm not seeing what you are trying to tell me. Perhaps because I have an exam in an hour and my thoughts are completely elsewhere, but still..

Loving the Targaryen-blood bastards by a serving wench though :)

It all comes to a theory I don't fully subscribe to but still... of Jamie&Cersei being Aerys' bastard children.

Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock

Metatextually: a king sires bastard twins at (or in connection with) Casterly Rock on a serving wench. Keeping in mind Aerys defined Tywin a servant, his wife Joanna could be metaphorically referred to as a serving wench. Add to that the Targaryen precedents with twins and you get a very disturbing foreshadowing indeed LOL

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The following TPatQ passage has struck me as the most cryptic and yet meaningful of the entire novel:

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

The connection to the Old Gods and the blood sacrifice element have all already been discussed in the dedicated threads. Not to mention Dark Sister, Bloodraven and the Isle of Faces. I tried to focus on the blood legacy aspect instead, and blood as herald of spring as in end of winter/rebirth/balance of opposites.

First observation is that after Prince Daemon's 'death', 12 Targaryen kings, all blood relatives of our uber-Targ, seat the Iron throne. One still missing to complete the parallel with the slashes. But this doesn't fully satisfy my bloody metaphors obsession lol

So I looked at Daemon's direct line, via his sons Aegon and Viserys. Here things get more challenging and at the same time more interesting. If we exclude Aegon II who's Daemon's nephew, we have exactly 11 Targaryen kings before RR, all descending directly from Daemon. Two still missing to implement our magic prime 13. Daenerys is a direct descendant via Aerys, Aegon likely (via Rhaegar if real, via Daemon Blackfyre and even Aerion if fAegon): two more links in Daemon's blood chain. So we have 13 slashes/blood offerings heralding (a dream of) spring brought about by TPtwP born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella (both direct descendants of Daemon). Jon as Rhaegar's son and Daemon's ultimate blood legacy, as the black shadow half-seen behind the fiery curtain and sweeping over the castle, fits such an imagery beautifully.

ETA There is power in king's blood ;)

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^ Sometimes I wonder if GRRM really, actually paints this much detail into his story... People are prone to apophenia on these boards (corn code thread comes to mind) but stuff like this almost makes me believe...that the truth is out there. :P


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The following TPatQ passage has struck me as the most cryptic and yet meaningful of the entire novel:

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

The connection to the Old Gods and the blood sacrifice element have all already been discussed in the dedicated threads. Not to mention Dark Sister, Bloodraven and the Isle of Faces. I tried to focus on the blood legacy aspect instead, and blood as herald of spring as in end of winter/rebirth/balance of opposites.

First observation is that after Prince Daemon's 'death', 12 Targaryen kings, all blood relatives of our uber-Targ, seat the Iron throne. One still missing to complete the parallel with the slashes. But this doesn't fully satisfy my bloody metaphors obsession lol

So I looked at Daemon's direct line, via his sons Aegon and Viserys. Here things get more challenging and at the same time more interesting. If we exclude Aegon II who's Daemon's nephew, we have exactly 11 Targaryen kings before RR, all descending directly from Daemon. Two still missing to implement our magic prime 13. Daenerys is a direct descendant via Aerys, Aegon likely (via Rhaegar if real, via Daemon Blackfyre and even Aerion if fAegon): two more links in Daemon's blood chain. So we have 13 slashes/blood offerings heralding (a dream of) spring brought about by TPtwP born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella (both direct descendants of Daemon). Jon as Rhaegar's son and Daemon's ultimate blood legacy, as the black shadow half-seen behind the fiery curtain and sweeping over the castle, fits such an imagery beautifully.

:bowdown: mindblown

Now, could someone please spoil me about that Daemon thing? Pretty please?

On a side note: I've finally braced myself to watch season two, and I noticed that right in the beginning of episode 1, they are trying to maintain at least some ground for R+L, emphasizing that Ned's bones are to be returned, to rest aside his brother and sister.

Other than that, I'm scratching my head, as LF got stupid, Cersei whitewashed, Rakharo stunted for Eroeh and the sex is plain creepy.

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^ Sometimes I wonder if GRRM really, actually paints this much detail into his story... People are prone to apophenia on these boards (corn code thread comes to mind) but stuff like this almost makes me believe...that the truth is out there. :P

That could be possible, because I've wondered the same thing too, and think what would happen if at the end the characters are just what they are with the exception of Jon.

But, if you've read other things with the same patterns you tend to see them in other works.

And given that it has taken GRRM so long to write these books, of course people are going to step in fill the vacuum which is risky because if it doesn't turn out as people have in some cases, for years have been theorizing, it could be disappointing for some.

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The whole twin thing I could go either way with, as it doesn't really bother me if it's too "Stars War-ish," or too Lucas, because the Targaryens are not exactly the first Albino dragon lords either.



Michael Moorcocks, "Elric."


http://p5.storage.canalblog.com/59/57/761447/81349190_p.jpg



Being influenced by others works is fine by me so long as it is well written with the Authors own flavor.



But, what can be the death knell is redundancy, and if there are hidden Targs, all over Westeros and beyond, then it loses it's significance.

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The following TPatQ passage has struck me as the most cryptic and yet meaningful of the entire novel:

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

The connection to the Old Gods and the blood sacrifice element have all already been discussed in the dedicated threads. Not to mention Dark Sister, Bloodraven and the Isle of Faces. I tried to focus on the blood legacy aspect instead, and blood as herald of spring as in end of winter/rebirth/balance of opposites.

First observation is that after Prince Daemon's 'death', 12 Targaryen kings, all blood relatives of our uber-Targ, seat the Iron throne. One still missing to complete the parallel with the slashes. But this doesn't fully satisfy my bloody metaphors obsession lol

So I looked at Daemon's direct line, via his sons Aegon and Viserys. Here things get more challenging and at the same time more interesting. If we exclude Aegon II who's Daemon's nephew, we have exactly 11 Targaryen kings before RR, all descending directly from Daemon. Two still missing to implement our magic prime 13. Daenerys is a direct descendant via Aerys, Aegon likely (via Rhaegar if real, via Daemon Blackfyre and even Aerion if fAegon): two more links in Daemon's blood chain. So we have 13 slashes/blood offerings heralding (a dream of) spring brought about by TPtwP born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella (both direct descendants of Daemon). Jon as Rhaegar's son and Daemon's ultimate blood legacy, as the black shadow half-seen behind the fiery curtain and sweeping over the castle, fits such an imagery beautifully.

I like this idea, I guess the 13th descendant to sit the IT could be fAegon with the fourteenth being Jon. I have another idea that may be crackpot but here goes. Daemon was Rhaenyra's uncle, and waited for Aemond One-Eye or Aemond Kinslayer to come. I think it could be reversed with the nephew of Rhaenyra' s parallel, Dany, waiting for the one-eyed kinslayer, BR, to come after the Ides of Marsh. The thirteen slashes on the weirwood could also point to that Jon will be "asleep" for thirteen days with BR visiting him on the fourteenth day. Aemond came to kill Daemon while BR comes to save Jon, or kill Jon Snow so Jon Targaryen, the 13th or 14th king, can be born.

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The following TPatQ passage has struck me as the most cryptic and yet meaningful of the entire novel:

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

The connection to the Old Gods and the blood sacrifice element have all already been discussed in the dedicated threads. Not to mention Dark Sister, Bloodraven and the Isle of Faces. I tried to focus on the blood legacy aspect instead, and blood as herald of spring as in end of winter/rebirth/balance of opposites.

First observation is that after Prince Daemon's 'death', 12 Targaryen kings, all blood relatives of our uber-Targ, seat the Iron throne. One still missing to complete the parallel with the slashes. But this doesn't fully satisfy my bloody metaphors obsession lol

So I looked at Daemon's direct line, via his sons Aegon and Viserys. Here things get more challenging and at the same time more interesting. If we exclude Aegon II who's Daemon's nephew, we have exactly 11 Targaryen kings before RR, all descending directly from Daemon. Two still missing to implement our magic prime 13. Daenerys is a direct descendant via Aerys, Aegon likely (via Rhaegar if real, via Daemon Blackfyre and even Aerion if fAegon): two more links in Daemon's blood chain. So we have 13 slashes/blood offerings heralding (a dream of) spring brought about by TPtwP born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella (both direct descendants of Daemon). Jon as Rhaegar's son and Daemon's ultimate blood legacy, as the black shadow half-seen behind the fiery curtain and sweeping over the castle, fits such an imagery beautifully.

ETA There is power in king's blood ;)

Great post. I wonder if there is any connection to the Night's King. Supposedly the thirteenth LC of the NW, who ruled for thirteen years with his icy queen.

It also got me thinking about the part where Prince Aemond flies out to Storm's End, with a sapphire in place of his missing eye:

Thus it was not a raven who took flight for Storm’s End that day, but Vhagar, oldest and largest of the dragons of Westeros. On her back rode Prince Aemond Targaryen, with a sapphire in the place of his missing eye. “Your purpose is to win the hand of one of Lord Baratheon’s daughters,” his grandsire Ser Otto told him, before he flew. “Any of the four will do. Woo her and wed her, and Lord Borros will deliver the stormlands for your brother. Fail—”

“I will not fail,” Prince Aemond blustered. “Aegon will have Storm’s End, and I will have this girl.”

Aside from the sapphire symbolism, this image almost seems like the constellation Ice Dragon come to life. At least in Osha's version which designates the blue (sapphire) star as the rider's eye. In TSS it's said to be the dragon's eye. I wonder if there isn't some intended symbolic connection to Jon Snow, himself a metaphorical ice dragon.

Also, and I'm sure this has been noted, but I just realized that both the original and upcoming DotD will have begun with Aegon winning Storm's End, as per the bold.

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I have always had a problem with the "twins" idea. In the HotU we see only the one blue rose, growing from a chink in a wall of ice. If there were a twin somewhere that vision suddenly loses a lot of value. So, I would say that the chance of there being a twin is pretty low, not insignificant, but very low.


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