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R+L=J v 66


Stubby

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The following TPatQ passage has struck me as the most cryptic and yet meaningful of the entire novel:

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

The connection to the Old Gods and the blood sacrifice element have all already been discussed in the dedicated threads. Not to mention Dark Sister, Bloodraven and the Isle of Faces. I tried to focus on the blood legacy aspect instead, and blood as herald of spring as in end of winter/rebirth/balance of opposites.

First observation is that after Prince Daemon's 'death', 12 Targaryen kings, all blood relatives of our uber-Targ, seat the Iron throne. One still missing to complete the parallel with the slashes. But this doesn't fully satisfy my bloody metaphors obsession lol

So I looked at Daemon's direct line, via his sons Aegon and Viserys. Here things get more challenging and at the same time more interesting. If we exclude Aegon II who's Daemon's nephew, we have exactly 11 Targaryen kings before RR, all descending directly from Daemon. Two still missing to implement our magic prime 13. Daenerys is a direct descendant via Aerys, Aegon likely (via Rhaegar if real, via Daemon Blackfyre and even Aerion if fAegon): two more links in Daemon's blood chain. So we have 13 slashes/blood offerings heralding (a dream of) spring brought about by TPtwP born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella (both direct descendants of Daemon). Jon as Rhaegar's son and Daemon's ultimate blood legacy, as the black shadow half-seen behind the fiery curtain and sweeping over the castle, fits such an imagery beautifully.

ETA There is power in king's blood ;)

Wonderful catch, as usual :D

I agree there is a lot of significance to be found in that short passage. I like the way this mirrors the rubies analysis (and we could indeed go on and on about the significance of the numbers 7 and 13 ;) ) In addition to the connection to the Night's King that J. Starg mentioned, I also see a "thirteen" connection in the tale of the last hero with the hero plus his twelve companions. After the companions all die he alone, the thirteenth of the party, remains.

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The following TPatQ passage has struck me as the most cryptic and yet meaningful of the entire novel:

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

The connection to the Old Gods and the blood sacrifice element have all already been discussed in the dedicated threads. Not to mention Dark Sister, Bloodraven and the Isle of Faces. I tried to focus on the blood legacy aspect instead, and blood as herald of spring as in end of winter/rebirth/balance of opposites.

First observation is that after Prince Daemon's 'death', 12 Targaryen kings, all blood relatives of our uber-Targ, seat the Iron throne. One still missing to complete the parallel with the slashes. But this doesn't fully satisfy my bloody metaphors obsession lol

So I looked at Daemon's direct line, via his sons Aegon and Viserys. Here things get more challenging and at the same time more interesting. If we exclude Aegon II who's Daemon's nephew, we have exactly 11 Targaryen kings before RR, all descending directly from Daemon. Two still missing to implement our magic prime 13. Daenerys is a direct descendant via Aerys, Aegon likely (via Rhaegar if real, via Daemon Blackfyre and even Aerion if fAegon): two more links in Daemon's blood chain. So we have 13 slashes/blood offerings heralding (a dream of) spring brought about by TPtwP born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella (both direct descendants of Daemon). Jon as Rhaegar's son and Daemon's ultimate blood legacy, as the black shadow half-seen behind the fiery curtain and sweeping over the castle, fits such an imagery beautifully.

ETA There is power in king's blood ;)

Love it. Especially the emphasis on the color black, given that Jon is in the Watch. It dovetails nicely with the "Rhaegar's rubies" idea, that the brothers are "waiting for the seventh ruby," and it's Jon.

ETA: If I understand it right, it's not the 13th person who's significant here, but the 14th-day black shadow. And again, still makes me think of the stone beast imagery.

Some other observations: The shadow that arrives in the story is actually Vhagar. More broadly, it's the arrival of a dragon, which could be real or metaphorical. Aemond being Vhagar's rider and having the sapphire eye is yet another thing that ties the ice dragon constellation to Jon, the ice dragon. The difference in opinion as to whether the sapphire is the rider's eye or the dragon's could be taken to mean that Jon might be both the rider and the dragon, either riding a dragon that he's warging, or being a metaphorical dragon. Finally, if we're talking about things coming full circle, then Vhagar being described as "hoary" suggests that she may have been grey/white, whereas we know Balerion was black and the Toland sigil hints that maybe Meraxes was green. So Vhagar's contemporary parallel would be Viserion, the dragon it seems most people think Jon is likeliest to ride, if he rides any. It's a bunch of loose ideas that's still in need of an "aha!" moment, but I definitely see the reasoning going on.

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^ Sometimes I wonder if GRRM really, actually paints this much detail into his story... People are prone to apophenia on these boards (corn code thread comes to mind) but stuff like this almost makes me believe...that the truth is out there. :P

I think it's a mix of the two. Some stuff that people find is deliberate, and some stuff just exists in their own minds. Like, I don't believe in the Corn Code, at all, and have said so. However, I definitely think there are intentional patterns, symbols and motifs (the boar, the wine and such come to mind). Whenever there's a random, seemingly throwaway detail, like the tree-hacking and the number, that I tend to look at closely, because it's one of those things where there's no purpose of including it unless it's meant to allude to something else. For as long as the books are, GRRM is still pretty deliberate about what he does and doesn't include; everything has a purpose. Especially a detail like this, included in an otherwise spare novella.

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I like this idea, I guess the 13th descendant to sit the IT could be fAegon with the fourteenth being Jon. I have another idea that may be crackpot but here goes. Daemon was Rhaenyra's uncle, and waited for Aemond One-Eye or Aemond Kinslayer to come. I think it could be reversed with the nephew of Rhaenyra' s parallel, Dany, waiting for the one-eyed kinslayer, BR, to come after the Ides of Marsh. The thirteen slashes on the weirwood could also point to that Jon will be "asleep" for thirteen days with BR visiting him on the fourteenth day. Aemond came to kill Daemon while BR comes to save Jon, or kill Jon Snow so Jon Targaryen, the 13th or 14th king, can be born.

Interesting; but would Jon take the revelation of his birth well? No. Even as Bloodraven tries to break the shell that is Jon Snow to reach Jon Targaryen, our poor hero isn't gonna take it well and fight him every step of the way, as Jon's identity as Ned's bastard has virtually become his armor, and he will fight tooth and nail to keep that aspect intact.

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Great post. I wonder if there is any connection to the Night's King. Supposedly the thirteenth LC of the NW, who ruled for thirteen years with his icy queen.

It also got me thinking about the part where Prince Aemond flies out to Storm's End, with a sapphire in place of his missing eye:

Aside from the sapphire symbolism, this image almost seems like the constellation Ice Dragon come to life. At least in Osha's version which designates the blue (sapphire) star as the rider's eye. In TSS it's said to be the dragon's eye. I wonder if there isn't some intended symbolic connection to Jon Snow, himself a metaphorical ice dragon.

Also, and I'm sure this has been noted, but I just realized that both the original and upcoming DotD will have begun with Aegon winning Storm's End, as per the bold.

Excellent catch with the sapphire and the Ice Dragon.

Love it. Especially the emphasis on the color black, given that Jon is in the Watch. It dovetails nicely wit the "Rhaegar's rubies" idea, that the brothers are "waiting for the seventh ruby," and it's Jon.

ETA: If I understand it right, it's not the 13th person who's significant here, but the 14th-day black shadow. And again, still makes me think of the stone beast imagery.

Some other observations: The shadow that arrives in the story is actually Vhagar. More broadly, it's the arrival of a dragon, which could be real or metaphorical. Aemond being Vhagar's rider and having the sapphire eye is yet another thing that ties the ice dragon constellation to Jon, the ice dragon. The difference in opinion as to whether the sapphire is the rider's eye or the dragon's could be taken to mean that Jon might be both the rider and the dragon, either riding a dragon that he's warging, or being a metaphorical dragon. Finally, if we're talking about things coming full circle, then Vhagar being described as "hoary" suggests that she may have been grey/white, whereas we know Balerion was black and the Toland sigil hints that maybe Meraxes was green. So Vhagar's contemporary parallel would be Viserion, the dragon it seems most people think Jon is likeliest to ride, if he rides any. It's a bunch of loose ideas that's still in need of an "aha!" moment, but I definitely see the reasoning going on.

BR's sigil was a white dragon like possibly Vhagar, since hey if Aegon had a green dragon and black dragon like Dany, than what is stopping GRRM from giving him a white dragon like Dany's. Daemon's dragon, Caraxes, was called the Blood Wyrm, indicating he was red like the dragon of the Targaryen sigil. The red dragon awaiting the older, white dragon could refer to Jon (Targaryen) awaiting, albeit unwittingly, the arrival of the much older BR.

I would like to add that there was one other person at Harrenhal, Alys Rivers. Alys is a seer of sorts, and I am tempted to point to Melisandre as the parallel, but I think it is more likely that it points to Val. Alys knew where to find Daemon akin to Val knowing where to find Tormund. Val also is looking after Gilly's infant as Alys was carrying a child. Alys saw Rhaenyra's king consort and his dragon (Daemon himself is also a dragon), and Val also sees things, even better than Mel, where Mel sees only Snow, Val sees "Kings and dragons."

Lyse Stark, I never said Jon would take the news well. I don't think he will reveal it until towards the middle and end of ADoS to bring Dany's dragons and army to the Wall. The hero, after he gets the boon, is usually hesitant to bestow it upon his fellow man.

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then Vhagar being described as "hoary" suggests that she may have been grey/white

No, it doesn't. This debate (does "hoary" refer to Vhagar's color, or does "hoary" refer to her age?) came up in the TPatQ thread, and Ran confirmed that "hoary" is a reference to Vhagar's age:

Hoary does indeed refer to age in the context of the story, FWIW.

We still don't know what color Vhagar is.

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Aside from the sapphire symbolism, this image almost seems like the constellation Ice Dragon come to life. At least in Osha's version which designates the blue (sapphire) star as the rider's eye. In TSS it's said to be the dragon's eye. I wonder if there isn't some intended symbolic connection to Jon Snow, himself a metaphorical ice dragon.

Fantastic catch. The ice dragon imagery keeps on stalking Jon's arc, from the Ice Dragon constellation to his walk down the gullet/belly of an ice dragon below the Wall. It is also neatly tied to the following passage:

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as dragonglass blade.

Dragonglass = frozen fire. Ergo frozen fire is inside him. His core is a sharp synthesis of ice and fire: no better description for an ice dragon.

I agree there is a lot of significance to be found in that short passage. I like the way this mirrors the rubies analysis (and we could indeed go on and on about the significance of the numbers 7 and 13 ;) ) In addition to the connection to the Night's King that J. Starg mentioned, I also see a "thirteen" connection in the tale of the last hero with the hero plus his twelve companions. After the companions all die he alone, the thirteenth of the party, remains.

Another awesome catch. The use of prime magic numbers (3, 7, 13) works for the reader like an alert warning for recurrent patterns.

Love it. Especially the emphasis on the color black, given that Jon is in the Watch. It dovetails nicely with the "Rhaegar's rubies" idea, that the brothers are "waiting for the seventh ruby," and it's Jon.

Absolutely. The parallel is also valid when it comes to this sort of sacred waiting. A vigil in Daemon's case, quite comparable to the vigil of a would-be knight before being anointed and taking his vows.

I would like to add that there was one other person at Harrenhal, Alys Rivers. Alys is a seer of sorts, and I am tempted to point to Melisandre as the parallel, but I think it is more likely that it points to Val. Alys knew where to find Daemon akin to Val knowing where to find Tormund. Val also is looking after Gilly's infant as Alys was carrying a child. Alys saw Rhaenyra's king consort and his dragon (Daemon himself is also a dragon), and Val also sees things, even better than Mel, where Mel sees only Snow, Val sees "Kings and dragons."

We could stretch a bit your parallel: both women witness the unraveling of events from a tower. The King's Tower in Val's case, the Kingspyre Tower in Alys' case. Quite foreboding, isn't it?

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It all comes to a theory I don't fully subscribe to but still... of Jamie&Cersei being Aerys' bastard children.

Metatextually: a king sires bastard twins at (or in connection with) Casterly Rock on a serving wench. Keeping in mind Aerys defined Tywin a servant, his wife Joanna could be metaphorically referred to as a serving wench. Add to that the Targaryen precedents with twins and you get a very disturbing foreshadowing indeed LOL

Ah thanks. I knew about the theory of Jaime and Cersei being bastards of Tywin, but the servant connection between the two situations was new :) Perhaps that's why I didn't get it at first.

But the fact that Jaime and Cersei are twins is not really an argument for Targaryen ancestory. In tPatQ, we meet a new set of Lannister twins

Jason and Tyland Lannister

. And ofcourse there's Willen and Martyn Lannister, Kevan's twins. So twins also happen more often in the Lannister family.

:bowdown: mindblown

Now, could someone please spoil me about that Daemon thing? Pretty please?

On a side note: I've finally braced myself to watch season two, and I noticed that right in the beginning of episode 1, they are trying to maintain at least some ground for R+L, emphasizing that Ned's bones are to be returned, to rest aside his brother and sister.

Other than that, I'm scratching my head, as LF got stupid, Cersei whitewashed, Rakharo stunted for Eroeh and the sex is plain creepy.

How is Ned's bones resting beside the bones of his brother and sister an argument for R+L=J? Only because Lyanna is mentioned?

The following TPatQ passage has struck me as the most cryptic and yet meaningful of the entire novel:

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

The connection to the Old Gods and the blood sacrifice element have all already been discussed in the dedicated threads. Not to mention Dark Sister, Bloodraven and the Isle of Faces. I tried to focus on the blood legacy aspect instead, and blood as herald of spring as in end of winter/rebirth/balance of opposites.

First observation is that after Prince Daemon's 'death', 12 Targaryen kings, all blood relatives of our uber-Targ, seat the Iron throne. One still missing to complete the parallel with the slashes. But this doesn't fully satisfy my bloody metaphors obsession lol

So I looked at Daemon's direct line, via his sons Aegon and Viserys. Here things get more challenging and at the same time more interesting. If we exclude Aegon II who's Daemon's nephew, we have exactly 11 Targaryen kings before RR, all descending directly from Daemon. Two still missing to implement our magic prime 13. Daenerys is a direct descendant via Aerys, Aegon likely (via Rhaegar if real, via Daemon Blackfyre and even Aerion if fAegon): two more links in Daemon's blood chain. So we have 13 slashes/blood offerings heralding (a dream of) spring brought about by TPtwP born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella (both direct descendants of Daemon). Jon as Rhaegar's son and Daemon's ultimate blood legacy, as the black shadow half-seen behind the fiery curtain and sweeping over the castle, fits such an imagery beautifully.

ETA There is power in king's blood ;)

Nice ^^

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How is Ned's bones resting beside the bones of his brother and sister an argument for R+L=J? Only because Lyanna is mentioned?

I didn't say it was an argument. My point is that they need to maintain her presence in the series not to pull the reveal out of thin air; there need to be reminders.

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Ah thanks. I knew about the theory of Jaime and Cersei being bastards of Tywin, but the servant connection between the two situations was new :) Perhaps that's why I didn't get it at first.

But the fact that Jaime and Cersei are twins is not really an argument for Targaryen ancestory. In tPatQ, we meet a new set of Lannister twins

Jason and Tyland Lannister

. And ofcourse there's Willen and Martyn Lannister, Kevan's twins. So twins also happen more often in the Lannister family.

Male twins are mentioned outside Targaryen dynasty (Horas - Hobber, The Kingsguard twins from tpatq) but I can't remember male-female pairs beside Jaime and Cersei. I'd find it kind of poetic if it turns out that Tywin hated Tyrion so much yet he was his only legitimate child and the one who killed him.

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Male twins are mentioned outside Targaryen dynasty (Horas - Hobber, The Kingsguard twins from tpatq) but I can't remember male-female pairs beside Jaime and Cersei. I'd find it kind of poetic if it turns out that Tywin hated Tyrion so much yet he was his only legitimate child and the one who killed him.

Yes, it would be very ironic.

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The following TPatQ passage has struck me as the most cryptic and yet meaningful of the entire novel:

Each night at dusk he slashed the heart tree in the godswood to mark the passing of another day. Thirteen marks can be seen upon that weirwood still; old wounds, deep and dark, yet the lords who have ruled Harrenhal since Daemon's day say they bleed every spring. On the fourteenth day of the prince's vigil, a shadow swept over the castle, blacker than any passing cloud.

The connection to the Old Gods and the blood sacrifice element have all already been discussed in the dedicated threads. Not to mention Dark Sister, Bloodraven and the Isle of Faces. I tried to focus on the blood legacy aspect instead, and blood as herald of spring as in end of winter/rebirth/balance of opposites.

First observation is that after Prince Daemon's 'death', 12 Targaryen kings, all blood relatives of our uber-Targ, seat the Iron throne. One still missing to complete the parallel with the slashes. But this doesn't fully satisfy my bloody metaphors obsession lol

So I looked at Daemon's direct line, via his sons Aegon and Viserys. Here things get more challenging and at the same time more interesting. If we exclude Aegon II who's Daemon's nephew, we have exactly 11 Targaryen kings before RR, all descending directly from Daemon. Two still missing to implement our magic prime 13. Daenerys is a direct descendant via Aerys, Aegon likely (via Rhaegar if real, via Daemon Blackfyre and even Aerion if fAegon): two more links in Daemon's blood chain. So we have 13 slashes/blood offerings heralding (a dream of) spring brought about by TPtwP born of the line of Aerys and Rhaella (both direct descendants of Daemon). Jon as Rhaegar's son and Daemon's ultimate blood legacy, as the black shadow half-seen behind the fiery curtain and sweeping over the castle, fits such an imagery beautifully.

ETA There is power in king's blood ;)

And the 13 blood offerings also fit in perfectly with Jon because he is the first and only Targaryen to worship the Old Gods. I think that fAegon and Daenerys might be the next blood offering that completes the TPtwP prophecy, and then Jon comes after the latter has died at the Wall.

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A little thought:



we know that Tywin had his beef with Aerys and we suspect that Elia had to pay for the "slight" to his family, as well. What might his thoughts about Lyanna have been, and what about Rhaegar himself? Somehow, I don't recall this ever discussed, but wasn't his brutality towards Rhaegar's family facilitated by perceiving Rhaegar as the one who added insult to the injury, eloping with Lyanna Stark after all those years when Cersei was all but being served to him on a golden platter?


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I know this is a very potent theory. I am not asking you to abandon it. I merely am asking you not to treat it as a FACT. It is not a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be used to argue any point because until it is explicitly stated in the novels, it is a theory. It has no power, it is just a thought. As of now, to everyone but those who know the complete story, Ned is Jon's father, no matter how many hints we find. Because, believe it or not, those hints may be a distraction. A dead end. Until it is written, one way or another, do not lob it around like a fact to use in every thread that istied to Jon, Rhaegar, or Lyanna. I am not requesting that you stop arguing for it, but stop treating it a s a fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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A theory supported by such an amount of textual evidence as this one is as close to being a fact as it gets without being spelt out explicitly.

Perhaps we should devote our time to figuring out the identity of the man in the pink cloak who kills Robb.

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the man in the Pink cloak has no other identity. Most likely he is whoever most of us think he is( I don't remember, I try not to think about the REd Wedding. But Jon has been EXPLICITYL called the son of Ned and WYlla. Maybe he isn't (I think he is the son of Ashara Dayne- Septa Lenmore ;) But I cannot use that as a fact. You can believett hat Jon is the son of Rhaegar. YOu can argue for it. But you cannot use it in an argeument because it is an argeument. There is just as much proof that Jon is Neds son, substantial proof.


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