R+L=J v 66

[Mladen]

I know this is a very potent theory. I am not asking you to abandon it. I merely am asking you not to treat it as a FACT. It is not a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be used to argue any point because until it is explicitly stated in the novels, it is a theory. It has no power, it is just a thought. As of now, to everyone but those who know the complete story, Ned is Jon's father, no matter how many hints we find. Because, believe it or not, those hints may be a distraction. A dead end. Until it is written, one way or another, do not lob it around like a fact to use in every thread that istied to Jon, Rhaegar, or Lyanna. I am not requesting that you stop arguing for it, but stop treating it a s a fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Easy there, boy... No need for this...

It is not just a theory, with amount of presented evidence, there is no doubt in it. We have left no stone unturned regarding Jon's parentage, and the only thing that makes sense is this theory.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

The man in the pink cloak is probably who we think he is(I don't remember, I try to forget the Red Wedding). But Jon has been EXPLICITLY called the son of Ned and Wylla. Until it is written by Martin that he is not, he remains the bastard of Ned and Wylla. (I think he is Speta Lenmores son, Speta Lenmore= Ashara Dayne) ;). Can I rgue that? Yes. Can I treat it as a fact in an argument when it itself is an argument? no,

[Sordelor]

the man in the Pink cloak has no other identity. Most likely he is whoever most of us think he is( I don't remember, I try not to think about the REd Wedding. But Jon has been EXPLICITYL called the son of Ned and WYlla. Maybe he isn't (I think he is the son of Ashara Dayne- Septa Lenmore ;) But I cannot use that as a fact. You can believett hat Jon is the son of Rhaegar. YOu can argue for it. But you cannot use it in an argeument because it is an argeument. There is just as much proof that Jon is Neds son, substantial proof.

Has he?

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Well I'm going to continue treating it as fact. Fuck the consequences.

[Jory Cassel]

the man in the Pink cloak has no other identity. Most likely he is whoever most of us think he is( I don't remember, I try not to think about the REd Wedding. But Jon has been EXPLICITYL called the son of Ned and WYlla. Maybe he isn't (I think he is the son of Ashara Dayne- Septa Lenmore ;) But I cannot use that as a fact. You can believett hat Jon is the son of Rhaegar. YOu can argue for it. But you cannot use it in an argeument because it is an argeument.

Maybe you should look up the meaning of "explicit(ly)".

"(I think he is the son of Ashara Dayne- Septa Lenmore"

how would that work? in vitro fertilisation?

There is just as much proof that Jon is Neds son, substantial proof.

such as?

Perhaps we should devote our time to figuring out the identity of the man in the pink cloak who kills Robb.

that would be a nice diversion..

[Mladen]

The man in the pink cloak is probably who we think he is(I don't remember, I try to forget the Red Wedding). But Jon has been EXPLICITLY called the son of Ned and Wylla. Until it is written by Martin that he is not, he remains the bastard of Ned and Wylla. (I think he is Speta Lenmores son, Speta Lenmore= Ashara Dayne) ;). Can I rgue that? Yes. Can I treat it as a fact in an argument when it itself is an argument? no,

Sansa is EXPLICITLY called Alayne. And Davos has been EXPLICITLY called dead. And, yet, Davos is alive, and Sansa is not Alayne.

[WhiteOwl18]

Well I'm going to continue treating it as fact. Fuck the consequences.

Yeah, me too. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But, at this point it kind of is fact.

And even though Ned has said the name Wylla (because he had to tell something to Robert) he never, not once, thinks about her as Jon's mother. He never thinks about Ashara or the fisherman's daughter either. You'd think he would have some thoughts to spare about his bastard's mother, especially if he feels so guilty about breaking his marital vows. But the truth is he never thinks about Jon's mother... oh, wait...

[Alia of the knife]

A little thought:

we know that Tywin had his beef with Aerys and we suspect that Elia had to pay for the "slight" to his family, as well. What might his thoughts about Lyanna have been, and what about Rhaegar himself? Somehow, I don't recall this ever discussed, but wasn't his brutality towards Rhaegar's family facilitated by perceiving Rhaegar as the one who added insult to the injury, eloping with Lyanna Stark after all those years when Cersei was all but being served to him on a golden platter?

I definitely think had things turned out different and Rhaegar brought Lyanna back to KL, Tywin would make sure she wasn't long for this world or baby Jon either

[Ygrain]

Sansa is EXPLICITLY called Alayne. And Davos has been EXPLICITLY called dead. And, yet, Davos is alive, and Sansa is not Alayne.

Dany explicitely beds stallions - poor Quentyn sure took it for a fact, as well. Little wonder he thought that taming a dragon was an easier feat...

[Arya kiddin']

Take it as fact. Doesn't bother me. It's attitudes like this.

Condescending attitudes + Unnecessary profanity = R+L=J (some) fans.

Exactly.

I myself now treat R+L =J as a fact for any discussion on the forum. But if someone doesn't have complete faith in the theory until it comes in print, I don't know, I can't fault that person. At such time a whole bunch of people calling the other person as short-sighted, unintelligent or stubborn looks pretty ugly. Isn't it better or even simpler to just tell the person that he is allowed to have his own opinion rather than shaming/forcing/insulting or ganging up on him to accept it as fact? That is not very intelligent behaviour either.

[Alia of the knife]

Exactly.

I myself now treat R+L =J as a fact for any discussion on the forum. But if someone doesn't have complete faith in the theory until it comes in print, I don't know, I can't fault that person. At such time a whole bunch of people calling the other person as short-sighted, unintelligent or stubborn looks pretty ugly. Isn't it better or even simpler to just tell the person that he is allowed to have his own opinion rather than shaming/forcing/insulting or ganging up on him to accept it as fact? That is not very intelligent behaviour either.

Good point.

I too accept R+L=J as a fact, though it hasn't been made "official, " and I am also at fault for allowing myself to get drawn into confrontations, though go forward, I won't because its not that serious and its just lost on me how some become so incensed over someones different opinion?

Having a different opinion does not negate another's heartfelt belief.

[Han Snow]

I know this is a very potent theory. I am not asking you to abandon it. I merely am asking you not to treat it as a FACT. It is not a fact. It is a theory. It cannot be used to argue any point because until it is explicitly stated in the novels, it is a theory. It has no power, it is just a thought. As of now, to everyone but those who know the complete story, Ned is Jon's father, no matter how many hints we find. Because, believe it or not, those hints may be a distraction. A dead end. Until it is written, one way or another, do not lob it around like a fact to use in every thread that istied to Jon, Rhaegar, or Lyanna. I am not requesting that you stop arguing for it, but stop treating it a s a fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

¿¿¿What provokes you to make such a grand demand from you peasants, m'lord??? I've never been to Jupiter, Saturn, Mars yet I still believe they are there in space, rotating around the Sun. ¿Should I stop believing in them also m'lord? ¡Because the evidence that they are there is quite overwhelming!

Take it as fact. Doesn't bother me. It's attitudes like this.

Condescending attitudes + Unnecessary profanity = R+L=J (some) fans.

I've not been on this board very long, but in the time I've been here I did notice certain patterns. First is a pattern of people asking silly and 1000 times before answered questions or bullheadedly stating their ignorance of the actual text as certain truths (Wylla, fisherwoman's daughter, fireproof targs, Jon is Aegon, Jon is Aegon, Jon is AEGON!!! etc.) The second pattern is when people hate the idea of Jon being Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son so much that they come here and spew out any kind of nonsense hoping with a passion of a madman that people will sigh and go yeah that must be it the evidence in the text is silly, GRRM will surely throw us a curve ball and go HAHA in the next book! So when some people loose patience a bit and act a bit condescending it's understandable. Though I yet have to see such a case for myself. People here respond to what I wrote above with, I dare say, utmost diligence and an amazing level of patience considering the level of not-smartness they are dealing with. ;)

[Han Snow]

Having a different opinion does not negate another's heartfelt belief.

This actually is one of the worst lies that infected the internet and is plaguing it's very existence. That all opinions and beliefs are valid and on the same level. THEY MOST CERTAINLY ARE NOT! A heartfelt belief can be wrong as hell itself!

[Arya kiddin']

Good point.

I too accept R+L=J as a fact, though it hasn't been made "official, " and I am also at fault for allowing myself to get drawn into confrontations, though go forward, I won't because its not that serious and its just lost on me how some become so incensed over someones different opinion?

Having a different opinion does not negate another's heartfelt belief.

Yes. And the posters who are now veterans of I don't know 20 R+L+J threads with 4k+ posts, shouldn't they be a little less condescending to comparatively new posters who have not been on the discussion for this long? The other person is more likely to accept your opinions if you keep condescension out of your posts, surely.

This actually is one of the worst lies that infected the internet and is plaguing it's very existence. That all opinions and beliefs are valid and on the same level. THEY MOST CERTAINLY ARE NOT! A heartfelt belief can be wrong as hell itself!

Everyone is allowed to have different opinions. You don;t have to educate the internet either.

[RoamingRonin]

I've not been on this board very long, but in the time I've been here I did notice certain patterns. First is a pattern of people asking silly and 1000 times before answered questions or bullheadedly stating their ignorance of the actual text as certain truths (Wylla, fisherwoman's daughter, fireproof targs, Jon is Aegon, Jon is Aegon, Jon is AEGON!!! etc.) The second pattern is when people hate the idea of Jon being Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son so much that they come here and spew out any kind of nonsense hoping with a passion of a madman that people will sigh and go yeah that must be it the evidence in the text is silly, GRRM will surely throw us a curve ball and go HAHA in the next book! So when some people loose patience a bit and act a bit condescending it's understandable. Though I yet have to see such a case for myself. People here respond to what I wrote above with, I dare say, utmost diligence and an amazing level of patience considering the level of not-smartness they are dealing with. ;)

With any message board, there are patterns. New people come and rehash old discussions. New people come with new ideas. It just happens. If you've been here so long that you just can't deal anymore... it's time for a break.

It's not OK to act like a jerk because you're tired of dealing with a particular issue.

Posting here is not like working in customer service. You don't have to entertain everything that comes your way.

[Jory Cassel]

I've not been on this board very long, but in the time I've been here I did notice certain patterns. First is a pattern of people asking silly and 1000 times before answered questions or bullheadedly stating their ignorance of the actual text as certain truths (Wylla, fisherwoman's daughter, fireproof targs, Jon is Aegon, Jon is Aegon, Jon is AEGON!!! etc.) The second pattern is when people hate the idea of Jon being Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son so much that they come here and spew out any kind of nonsense hoping with a passion of a madman that people will sigh and go yeah that must be it the evidence in the text is silly, GRRM will surely throw us a curve ball and go HAHA in the next book! So when some people loose patience a bit and act a bit condescending it's understandable. Though I yet have to see such a case for myself. People here respond to what I wrote above with, I dare say, utmost diligence and an amazing level of patience considering the level of not-smartness they are dealing with. ;)

This.

[Mladen]

OK, guys, I think we all know that this thread is about R+L=J theory, not its fan. So, if we may conclude this, and go back to discussion we should be having here.

The thing is that everybody is allowed to doubt something. But, then, you are also supposed to give us something why you doubt. The entire thing "it's just a theory, it hasn't been proved" would work, if there is not like a thousand small pieces that actually are proving this theory. Also, Jon's parentage is something that is heavily discuss, and if you have something that would overthrow this theory, by all means, let us hear it. Let we hear those great pieces of evidence you have. That is what having productive discussion means. Not coming and saying "I hate how people feel about this theory".

As for my personal standpoint, I do believe in this. I also believe in it even if it is not written in the books by now, just the same as I know that hot stove will burn my hand if I touch it, even though I don't do it. I am open-minded and ready to hear other options, but apparently other than "I don't like it" people have no other proofs. Well, it is not enough for me...

Now, if we have all politely agreed to disagree in certain aspects, may we go back to discussion about theory, not its fans?

[Han Snow]

Everyone is allowed to have different opinions. You don;t have to educate the internet either.

Different opinions are good if based on something, if when put under scrutiny they are backed by data, by actual evidence. Plurality is not some sacred cow. And EVERYONE should be educated! Good education for every man, woman and child on this planet would stop wars, famine, diseases! This includes people on the internet, they actually crave for proper education. Having an opinion means jack squat if you are primitive, stupid or uninformed! Stubbornness and unwillingness to change also doesn't help. If someone came here and presented good, hard evidence in the text that for instance, Jon is actually son of Tywin and Rhaella Targaryen I'd applaud if it were backed up by the text.

[Han Snow]

With any message board, there are patterns. New people come and rehash old discussions. New people come with new ideas. It just happens. If you've been here so long that you just can't deal anymore... it's time for a break.

It's not OK to act like a jerk because you're tired of dealing with a particular issue.

Posting here is not like working in customer service. You don't have to entertain everything that comes your way.

Wow, that is actually accusing people here for a lot of crimes.

[Alia of the knife]

This actually is one of the worst lies that infected the internet and is plaguing it's very existence. That all opinions and beliefs are valid and on the same level. THEY MOST CERTAINLY ARE NOT! A heartfelt belief can be wrong as hell itself!

Different opinions are good if based on something, if when put under scrutiny they are backed by data, by evidence. Everyone should be educated! Good education for every man, woman and child on this planet would stop wars, famine, diseases! This includes people on the internet, they actually crave for proper education. Having an opinion means jack squat if you are primitive, stupid or uninformed! Stubbornness and unwillingness to change also doesn't help. If someone came here and presented good, hard evidence in the text that for instance, Jon is actually son of Tywin and Rhaella Targaryen I'd applaud if it were backed up by the text.

Really, and who gets to decide those points, whether they be education, beliefs or opinions? There have been many "intellectuals" who have come to the "rescue" of the "unwashed masses" only to lead them to slaughter.

"Intellect" that is arrogant and absent wisdom is as dangerous as religious fanaticism and zealotry.

My point was that just because I believe something absent the facts, it doesn't make me right or wrong, or the person I'm debating right or wrong until it's resolved by the person that actually does have the answer.

(It's not like Martin is like to show up on my doorstep with a million dollar check from "Fantasy Clearing House Sweepstakes" because I got some theory right).

So, I will always have an open mind and root for open forums.