R+L=J v 66

[Black Crow]

I did argue a few threads ago that their attitude seemed very fatalistic - the King's Guard dies but it does not surrender.

[Ygrain]

But that is not supported by the tone of the dialogue. They are determined, not fatalistic.

[Han Snow]

Just a thought here. There is an assumption that the King's Guard were guarding the Tower of Joy at Rhaegar's behest because there was a Targaryen prince within. Rhaegar died at the Trident before Aerys the King. What if this episode has been read wrongly and that the King's Guard were there to slay Lyanna and the boy on Aerys' orders?

No decent writer would opt for this route. If we were speculating about real world events then maybe, but even then this option would be unrealistic.

[Dany Girl]

Just a thought here. There is an assumption that the King's Guard were guarding the Tower of Joy at Rhaegar's behest because there was a Targaryen prince within. Rhaegar died at the Trident before Aerys the King. What if this episode has been read wrongly and that the King's Guard were there to slay Lyanna and the boy on Aerys' orders?

If that were the case, both Lyanna and Jon would be dead by the time Ned and company show up. What were they waiting for? They could just as easily kill a pregnant woman than a woman with a newborn.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

But that is not supported by the tone of the dialogue. They are determined, not fatalistic.

Exactly! Determined, resolute, purposeful, unwavering... Ready to face death as they uphold their duty and responsibility. Fatalism implies melancholy or despondence, and would lead to seeking death as an end in itself, which is emphatically not what the passage implies.

[Ygrain]

Exactly! Determined, resolute, purposeful, unwavering... Ready to face death as they uphold their duty and responsibility. Fatalism implies melancholy or despondence, and would lead to seeking death as an end in itself, which is emphatically not what the passage implies.

BTW, if you recall my test on an unsuspecting guinnea pig, this is exactly the answer I received: they are determined and they are there to carry out their duty.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But that is not supported by the tone of the dialogue. They are determined, not fatalistic.

Yeah, fatalistic implies that they thought they were all going to die. In fact, they came very, very close to getting away, at least Arthur did. It's only because of whatever Howland Reed did that Arthur didn't kill Ned (and probably Howland too) and make off with baby Jon himself.

Just a thought here. There is an assumption that the King's Guard were guarding the Tower of Joy at Rhaegar's behest because there was a Targaryen prince within. Rhaegar died at the Trident before Aerys the King. What if this episode has been read wrongly and that the King's Guard were there to slay Lyanna and the boy on Aerys' orders?

Doesn't make much sense. If that were the case, both Lyanna and Jon would have already been dead before Ned got there.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Them not thinking about whether the KG would have made a difference at the Trident makes sense since it was Robert vs. Rhaegar in single combat that ended up deciding the battle, so on second thought, I think you're right about that. And I think the explanation about Hightower and Rhaegar makes sense logistically and I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happened. But if Dayne and Whent did escort Rhaegar back and were seen back at KL, that only exacerbates the issue.

Again, I'm not saying the KG would have questioned Rhaegar or the king. I'm just curious about why either Jamie or Barristan (whoever was aware that Hightower went to look for Rhaegar but didn't come back with him and possibly saw Dayne/Whent at KL) hasn't wondered about what could prompt Rhaegar/the king to order 1-3 of the best knights in the kingdom to do "something else" instead of fight in an important battle during a point in the war where the loyalists were clearly in trouble. Just because they wouldn't question the king doesn't mean they can't ask themselves the question in their own heads. How has neither of them thought about this to themselves when we've been witness to them thinking about the events surrounding the Trident multiple times, and we know that Barristan, and to a certain extent Jamie as well, are both thoughtful people.

It's the knowledge that Hightower went but didn't come back, and possibly that Dayne/Whent were seen in KL right before the Trident but didn't go to the battle that's the real issue. If Jamie/Barristan/any other witnesses were in the dark about where Hightower, Dayne and Whent were for the entire war, it would be an easier pill to swallow.

For what purpose? The boy wasn't a threat to the throne as Aegon had already been born.

I don't think it is ever mentioned that Dayne and Whent came back to KL with Rhaegar. I don't know why you think that they did.

[Bloodraven's Lost Eye]

This has probably been posted before, but I just stumbled on this little gem in my reread, Tyrion commenting on Jon's appearance:

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

:)

[WhiteOwl18]

This has probably been posted before, but I just stumbled on this little gem in my reread, Tyrion commenting on Jon's appearance:

:)

Yes it has been mentioned before. I love the irony of that passage because, as we know, Jon looks exactly like his mother and nothing like his father (phisically, at least!).

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Yes it has been mentioned before. I love the irony of that passage because, as we know, Jon looks exactly like his mother and nothing like his father (phisically, at least!).

I think his slenderness is from his father, Dany is described as smallish.

[WhiteOwl18]

I think his slenderness is from his father, Dany is described as smallish.

Perhaps. But I think he takes after his father mostly in personality

[Alta1r]

I don't think it is ever mentioned that Dayne and Whent came back to KL with Rhaegar. I don't know why you think that they did.

Yeah, no mention of this happening in the books. Just responding to this hypothetical (and, IMO plausible scenario for when Rhaegar came back to KL):

Hightower is sent for Rhaegar, and eventually finds him with his routine bodyguard of Dayne and Whent. Rhaegar tasks Hightower with guarding Lyanna until he returns, since if Gerrold returns to King's Landing it is unlikely that the secret will remain secret. Rhaegar then takes Whent and Dayne as his bodyguards until he reaches King's Landing, then he sends them back to the tower. (This makes a lot of sense to me on how we end up with the arrangement at the tower.)

This has probably been posted before, but I just stumbled on this little gem in my reread, Tyrion commenting on Jon's appearance:

:)

NIce! I didn't catch that before.

[Old-Growth]

Perhaps. But I think he takes after his father mostly in personality

Yes, but he is also slender and graceful after the fashion of Rhaegar. If one could have put the one and the other side by side, I rather suspect that the resemblance in physical shape would be obvious.

[J. Stargaryen]

“No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

- AGoT, Bran I

[Alia of the knife]

I definitely think that those who were close to Rhaegar, (i.e, JonCon), would see it in Jon.

I think it wouldn't take JonCon any time at all to know who Jon was.

The only thing that bothers me though about such a meeting is the wolf skin cloak JonCon wears.

[Old-Growth]

Thanks, J. Stargaryen.

[Twinslayer]

If you have read TP&TQ, you should look at this thread. If you have not, warning, it has spoilers. It is relevant to the debate concerning why the KG were at the TOJ and the legitimacy of Jon Snow:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100817-spoilers-what-tp-tq-tells-us-about-jon-snows-bastardy/#entry5212059

Let me know if you think I have missed anything. Otherwise, I'll add this to my attempt to put together an authoritative summary of the KG vow:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87683-text-of-the-kingsguard-vow/

[Fire Eater]

Which king btw? ;)

To that I'll add,

Jon glanced back at Stannis. For an instant their eyes met. Then the king nodded, and went back inside his tower.

Also, anyone notice that the girl who likes Jon is a princess in a tower with a baby, like someone else we know.

[Alta1r]

If you have read TP&TQ, you should look at this thread. If you have not, warning, it has spoilers. It is relevant to the debate concerning why the KG were at the TOJ and the legitimacy of Jon Snow:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100817-spoilers-what-tp-tq-tells-us-about-jon-snows-bastardy/#entry5212059

Let me know if you think I have missed anything. Otherwise, I'll add this to the authoritative summary of the KG vow:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87683-text-of-the-kingsguard-vow/

That was a good read.