[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[White Ravens]

sorry it's bullshit that USA residents can't read this. I can only imagine the outcry if only USA residents could read his work a week before the rest of the world.

I can't read it yet either. Boo hoo.

I guess I'll just have wait a few more days like the rest of my fellow Canadian fans.

[chrisdaw]

Lots of Bloodraven association in Aemond/Alys.

Alys Rivers, from the Riverlands (one would assume) like Bloodraven's mother, shares his bastard birth name and has the gift of prophesy, seeing visions in the fires. Pregnant with (presumably) Aemond's bastard. Aemond has one eye, and dies via Dark Sister, Bloodraven's eventual sword, being thrust into his blind eye.

[LordBloodraven]

Lots of Bloodraven association in Aemond/Alys.

Alys Rivers, from the Riverlands (one would assume) like Bloodraven's mother, shares his bastard birth name and has the gift of prophesy, seeing visions in the fires. Pregnant with (presumably) Aemond's bastard. Aemond has one eye, and dies via Dark Sister, Bloodraven's eventual sword, being thrust into his blind eye.

Wait, wasn't Alys associated with Rhaenyra's camp? Do we know how Aemond lost his first eye? And is Vhagar one-eyed too?

[chrisdaw]

Wait, wasn't Alys associated with Rhaenyra's camp? Do we know how Aemond lost his first eye? And is Vhagar one-eyed too?

No, she isn't Daemon's lover she's Aemond's lover, only Nettles is Daemon's. Can't remember but I don't think so to both the others.

[Grrrod]

So this swallowed my evening then. Loving the idea of dragons called Cannibal and Sheepstealer :)

[Newstar]

So this swallowed my evening then. Loving the idea of dragons called Cannibal and Sheepstealer :)

"Sheepstealer" just makes me think of the opening sequence of How To Train Your Dragon, where the dragons assault the village and carry off a bunch of sheep. :D

I think the character Nettles is probably not a Targ bastard. The way she bonds with a wild dragon, bringing it sheep to eat until it gets used to her presence, seems to me to be GRRM hinting at how the Valyrians originally bonded with wild dragons.

Come to think of it, this sounds an awful lot like How To Train Your Dragon as well, with the dragontamer bringing the wild dragon food to bond with the dragon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is it stated anywhere how Nettles and Alys are related to the Targaryens? So who their Targaeyen relative is?

[The Lady Lannister]

Isn't the 4th dragon Laenor's or whatever Daemon's eldest son is called? Laena had a dragon, so he must have had one.

Could Nettles has been pregnant and Aegon II's paramour? Lots of little dragonseeds.

The Targ women were just awesome. And Daemon.

Both sides were exceptionally cruel if half of what is said to be believed. They always go for the children.

Just like on the Redgrass field.

I was so distraught after the Heleana scene.

Aemond lost his eye when he fought one of Rhaenyra's older boys. Probably Jacaerys.

[The Lady Lannister]

Is it stated anywhere how Nettles and Alys are related to the Targaryens? So who their Targaeyen relative is?

No. And I found it a bit weird how Addam and Alyn were instantly made heirs to Driftmark when there were trueborn claimants. Corlys must have had a real soft spot for them or their mother.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

No. And I found it a bit weird how Addam and Alyn were instantly made heirs to Driftmark when there were trueborn claimants. Corlys must have had a real soft spot for them or their mother.

Who were the trueborn claimants? So Addam and Alyn were originally bastards? But they were children of Corlys? Please explain, my copy of the story won't arrive for another 5 days.

[The Lady Lannister]

Who were the trueborn claimants? So Addam and Alyn were originally bastards? But they were children of Corlys? Please explain, my copy of the story won't arrive for another 5 days.

They were bastards, but I did not really get whose. I would have thought any of Rhaenerys's or Daemon's son by their Velaryon spouse could have a claim. Am I wrong on this one? None of this was explained. Tha maester who has written the story was way more interested in badassery than tying up loose ends.

Does the ending mean we'll get another Dance novel?

[Hardstone]

Is it stated anywhere how Nettles and Alys are related to the Targaryens? So who their Targaeyen relative is?

Nope. The same with Hard Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White. Which makes you think about whether dragons need Targaryens.

Hugh and Ulf are brutish and strong whilst Nettles used a different method to tame her dragon. I actually can't recall if Alys is stated to be a Targaryen bastard just that she eventually pregnant and riding with Aemond.

In fact, the only reason I thought she was a dragonseed is because of that Tor excerpt review. I'm 1/3 of the way through my slow re-read and she is only mentioned once at Harrenhal so far.

She could have been a lover of Daemon's when he had the castle before Aemond/Criston got there. He could have left/spurned her so she went over to the Greens?

Isn't the 4th dragon Laenor's or whatever Daemon's eldest son is called? Laena had a dragon, so he must have had one.

Could Nettles has been pregnant and Aegon II's paramour? Lots of little dragonseeds.

The Targ women were just awesome. And Daemon.

Both sides were exceptionally cruel if half of what is said to be believed. They always go for the children.

Just like on the Redgrass field.

I was so distraught after the Heleana scene.

Aemond lost his eye when he fought one of Rhaenyra's older boys. Probably Jacaerys.

Daemon had no trueborn sons and no bastards are stated. Laenor's dragon was Seasmoke before his death. (which is tamed by Addam Velaryon). Laena Velaryon isn't stated to have had a dragon though. I think the 4th dragon is a hatched egg because the story goes to length to confirm all the dragons that currently exist and detailing/confirming each dragon's death.

It is interesting that it isn't stated when Aegon fed the Grand Maesters (Geraldys and other) to Sunfyre but I suppose it could happen in those last months of the dragon's life. Maybe he feeds them to Silverwing or the Cannibal?

It isn't stated which boy but I think it was implied it was more than one of them in the training duel. But Jace is the obvious candidate because he would have mentioned it when intimidating Luke if he did it.

They were bastards, but I did not really get whose. I would have thought any of Rhaenerys's or Daemon's son by their Velaryon spouse could have a claim. Am I wrong on this one? None of this was explained. Tha maester who has written the story was way more interested in badassery than tying up loose ends.

Does the ending mean we'll get another Dance novel?

I doubt it. They'll probably cover it in WOIAF. But those last six months must have been harsh before the end.

I just remembered that we don't see Syrax-Byron Swann. Did this happen during Rhaenyra taking King's Landing (and was omitted) or was that just a tall tale?

[CosimaistheHottest]

They were bastards, but I did not really get whose. I would have thought any of Rhaenerys's or Daemon's son by their Velaryon spouse could have a claim. Am I wrong on this one? None of this was explained. Tha maester who has written the story was way more interested in badassery than tying up loose ends.

This is interesting. It's also like are they Velaryon bastards or Targaryen bastards? And a Lord would just let a bastard use his name once legitimized to the point where he is in the line of succession. Strange.

[Balaurderaa]

Has anyone managed to create a family tree for all of them yet?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

They were bastards, but I did not really get whose. I would have thought any of Rhaenerys's or Daemon's son by their Velaryon spouse could have a claim. Am I wrong on this one? None of this was explained. Tha maester who has written the story was way more interested in badassery than tying up loose ends.

Does the ending mean we'll get another Dance novel?

All of Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor Velaryon died in the war (though I cannot be sure of when they died in the war). Daemon only had daughters by his Velaryon wife.

Whether Laenor (Rhaenyra's husband) and Laena (Daemons wife) were brother and sister, and whether they were children of Corlys (which seems to be logical, since the marriage of Rhaenyra and Laenor would have joined the Targaryen bloodlines once more) and Rhaenys.

But yes, essentially, through the female line, any son could have a claim, as long as no bastard is made legit and given the lordship.

That said, are Addam (and later Alyn) ever referred to as Lord of the Driftmark? Or immediate heir. And are any other Velaryons mentioned?

Nope. The same with Hard Hugh Hammer and Ulf the White. Which makes you think about whether dragons need Targaryens.

Hugh and Ulf are brutish and strong whilst Nettles used a different method to tame her dragon. I actually can't recall if Alys is stated to be a Targaryen bastard just that she eventually pregnant and riding with Aemond.

In fact, the only reason I thought she was a dragonseed is because of that Tor excerpt review. I'm 1/3 of the way through my slow re-read and she is only mentioned once at Harrenhal so far.

She could have been a lover of Daemon's when he had the castle before Aemond/Criston got there. He could have left/spurned her so she went over to the Greens?

Daemon had no trueborn sons and no bastards are stated. Laenor's dragon was Seasmoke before his death. (which is tamed by Addam Velaryon). Laena Velaryon isn't stated to have had a dragon though. I think the 4th dragon is a hatched egg because the story goes to length to confirm all the dragons that currently exist and detailing/confirming each dragon's death.

It is interesting that it isn't stated when Aegon fed the Grand Maesters (Geraldys and other) to Sunfyre but I suppose it could happen in those last months of the dragon's life. Maybe he feeds them to Silverwing or the Cannibal?

It isn't stated which boy but I think it was implied it was more than one of them in the training duel. But Jace is the obvious candidate because he would have mentioned it when intimidating Luke if he did it.

I doubt it. They'll probably cover it in WOIAF. But those last six months must have been harsh before the end.

I just remembered that we don't see Syrax-Byron Swann. Did this happen during Rhaenyra taking King's Landing (and was omitted) or was that just a tall tale?

The WOIAF will cover the entire war, but only in 10.000 words. The more detailed account of the war might eventually be in the GRRMarillion, should this book ever be published.

So Alys was pregnant with Aemonds bastard child? Did she give birth before the story ended?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Has anyone managed to create a family tree for all of them yet?

Working at it, but I won't see it as final until I can work out how all those Velaryons are related. There must be some trueborns left, since a king (Aegon III) would never marry the daughter of a bastard who was once made legit, right?

I'm trying to keep up with all the new information though. Should it ever be final, I'll post it :)

[Hardstone]

This is interesting. It's also like are they Velaryon bastards or Targaryen bastards? And a Lord would just let a bastard use his name once legitimized to the point where he is in the line of succession. Strange.

Addam & Alyn are from Hull which I believe is on Driftmark or within Velaryon territory. But Corlys likes them enough to ask Rhaenyra to legitimise them so I wouldn't be surprised if they were both his bastards from the same woman. Addam is named as Corlys' heir so there was a distinct lack of Velaryon's in the main branch for Corlys to want 'his bastards' to take up after him.

[The Lady Lannister]

My bad. Daemon only had the two daughters from the first marriage.

Rhaenyra still had Jace and Joff when Addam of Hull became a dragonrider, was legitimised and made heir of Driftmark. Corlys was happy to get imprisoned to save his life when the dragonseeds were accused of treachery.

Alys Rivers has not given birth yet. But she was visibly pregnant and Aemond referred to her as my lady.

I hope Daemon did not die. But he most probably did. What a legend!

[Hardstone]

All of Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor Velaryon died in the war (though I cannot be sure of when they died in the war). Daemon only had daughters by his Velaryon wife.

Whether Laenor (Rhaenyra's husband) and Laena (Daemons wife) were brother and sister, and whether they were children of Corlys (which seems to be logical, since the marriage of Rhaenyra and Laenor would have joined the Targaryen bloodlines once more) and Rhaenys.

But yes, essentially, through the female line, any son could have a claim, as long as no bastard is made legit and given the lordship.

That said, are Addam (and later Alyn) ever referred to as Lord of the Driftmark? Or immediate heir. And are any other Velaryons mentioned?

The WOIAF will cover the entire war, but only in 10.000 words. The more detailed account of the war might eventually be in the GRRMarillion, should this book ever be published.

So Alys was pregnant with Aemonds bastard child? Did she give birth before the story ended?

Addam is named as Corlys' heir but as of the end of the novel. Addam is dead but Corlys and Alyn are still alive but the Velaryon's aren't as well thought of by Rhaenyra in the end. ;) So Alyn isn't confirmed as heir.

Yeah, I'd say it is confirmed that Alys' bastard as she rides with him on Vhagar when she is very far along. Nope, she isn't written about after Caraxes vs. Vhagar so we don't see or hear about the birth.

[CosimaistheHottest]

My bad. Daemon only had the two daughters from the first marriage.

Rhaenyra still had Jace and Joff when Addam of Hull became a dragonrider, was legitimised and made heir of Driftmark. Corlys was happy to get imprisoned to save his life when the dragonseeds were accused of treachery.

Alys Rivers has not given birth yet. But she was visibly pregnant and Aemond referred to her as my lady.

I hope Daemon did not die. But he most probably did. What a legend!

What about Aemond's Baratheon Lady? Didn't he marry one of them?