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[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion


chrisdaw

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Addam is named as Corlys' heir but as of the end of the novel. Addam is dead but Corlys and Alyn are still alive but the Velaryon's aren't as well thought of by Rhaenyra in the end. ;) So Alyn isn't confirmed as heir.

Yeah, I'd say it is confirmed that Alys' bastard as she rides with him on Vhagar when she is very far along. Nope, she isn't written about after Caraxes vs. Vhagar so we don't see or hear about the birth.

Well, seeing as Alyn will have two children with Elaena Targaryen in the future (sometime after 171 AL), it is safe to say he won't die during the Dance. So he might just end up becomming the Lord of the Driftmark, if Addam was named Corlys' heir and Alyn was Addam's younger brother who was legitimised at the same time.

Does make me wonder how the Velaryon wife of Aegon III is related, since Alyn is referred to as Elaena's cousin, and not, for example, uncle.

He goes to ask for the hand of one of Lord Borros Baratheon's four daughters but it is never confirmed who he picks or whether they marry.

Does Lord Borros also have a son?

Lord Borros had no choice but to choose the side of the Greens after Luce's death, so he might as well have said yes to any betrothal suggestion.

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Well, seeing as Alyn will have two children with Elaena Targaryen in the future (sometime after 171 AL), it is safe to say he won't die during the Dance. So he might just end up becomming the Lord of the Driftmark, if Addam was named Corlys' heir and Alyn was Addam's younger brother who was legitimised at the same time.

Does make me wonder how the Velaryon wife of Aegon III is related, since Alyn is referred to as Elaena's cousin, and not, for

Maybe the Velaryon wife is the daughter of Alyn. Always a possiblity. Alyn is probably older than Aegon III who was around 7 I think. We don't know what age Aegon III and Jaehaerya (Aegon II)'s daughter married. They could have married at like 15 or 16. Then they are probably married for a little while before she dies. It's possible the Velaryon wife would be old enough to marry by the time Jaehaerya is dead if she is like 14 or 15. They would lower the age for a chance at a King.

Alyn seems to be an older man especially compared to Elaena. He is older than her father who was probably in his 30s when she was born since she is the youngest child.

I wonder if there is any chance that Rhaena, Daemon's other daughter, is the wife of Viserys II and mother of Aegon the Unworthy, Naerys, and the Dragonknight.

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Well, seeing as Alyn will have two children with Elaena Targaryen in the future (sometime after 171 AL), it is safe to say he won't die during the Dance. So he might just end up becomming the Lord of the Driftmark, if Addam was named Corlys' heir and Alyn was Addam's younger brother who was legitimised at the same time.

Does make me wonder how the Velaryon wife of Aegon III is related, since Alyn is referred to as Elaena's cousin, and not, for example, uncle.

Does Lord Borros also have a son?

Lord Borros had no choice but to choose the side of the Greens after Luce's death, so he might as well have said yes to any betrothal suggestion.

Yeah, Alyn is either 13 or 14 during the story so he must be quite old when he has kids with Elaena. He probably is named heir but it isn't stated in the text. Corlys is detained as a traitor for warning Addam that Rhaenyra is going to arrest/kill him due to the other dragonseeds betrayal and the Velaryons aren't really mentioned after Addam's death/Corlys' arrest.

Aye, I thought the same about the Velaryon bride. Considering how many characters that seemed big are now dead, Alyn may become a more prominent member of the war in Aegon's last 6 months probably as a saviour for the Blacks. His bastardy is probably ignored henceforth and it is his daughter that eventually marries Aegon III.

It isn't mentioned that Borros has a son, only 4 daughters.

Contrary to what I've read on other threads, Aemond actually arrives at Storm's End first so I think him and Borros already agreed on an alliance before Luke arrives. Borros is very rude to Luke when he offers him Rhaenyra's letter so I'm inclined to believe he chose the Greens before hand. However, he doesn't allow Aemond to fight Luke under his roof and waits until Luke is flying off to tell Aemond, he doesn't care what he does with him now.

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Yeah, Alyn is either 13 or 14 during the story so he must be quite old when he has kids with Elaena. He probably is named heir but it isn't stated in the text. Corlys is detained as a traitor for warning Addam that Rhaenyra is going to arrest/kill him due to the other dragonseeds betrayal and the Velaryons aren't really mentioned after Addam's death/Corlys' arrest.

Aye, I thought the same about the Velaryon bride. Considering how many characters that seemed big are now dead, Alyn may become a more prominent member of the war in Aegon's last 6 months probably as a saviour for the Blacks. His bastardy is probably ignored henceforth and it is his daughter that eventually marries Aegon III.

It isn't mentioned that Borros has a son, only 4 daughters.

Contrary to what I've read on other threads, Aemond actually arrives at Storm's End first so I think him and Borros already agreed on an alliance before Luke arrives. Borros is very rude to Luke when he offers him Rhaenyra's letter so I'm inclined to believe he chose the Greens before hand. However, he doesn't allow Aemond to fight Luke under his roof and waits until Luke is flying off to tell Aemond, he doesn't care what he does with him now.

If Alyn is 13 or 14 in the beginning of the Dance, he would have been 56 years old when Elaena was no longer confined in the maiden vault. She was 21 at that time. That does explain why the marriage for love (Elaena married 3 times, the third one was most likely the one for love, the other two at the behest of the king) was not to Alyn, since their children would become legit if that had been the case. Alyn was too old and had most likely died by then.

Alyn did become a hero during the Conquest of Dorne, so yeah, he most likely held a respected position amongst the Targaryens after the war.

So when the story ends, Addam is death and Corlys is arrersted?

Do any of Rhaenyra's children ever refer to Rhaenys (the Queen who never Was) as their grandmother?

Edit: if Alyn and Addam were Corlys' bastards, this is really going to be difficult to put in a family tree without making such a big mess of it :p

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If Alyn is 13 or 14 in the beginning of the Dance, he would have been 56 years old when Elaena was no longer confined in the maiden vault. She was 21 at that time. That does explain why the marriage for love (Elaena married 3 times, the third one was most likely the one for love, the other two at the behest of the king) was not to Alyn, since their children would become legit if that had been the case. Alyn was too old and had most likely died by then.

Alyn did become a hero during the Conquest of Dorne, so yeah, he most likely held a respected position amongst the Targaryens after the war.

So when the story ends, Addam is death and Corlys is arrersted?

Do any of Rhaenyra's children ever refer to Rhaenys (the Queen who never Was) as their grandmother?

Edit: if Alyn and Addam were Corlys' bastards, this is really going to be difficult to put in a family tree without making such a big mess of it :P

It is probably after Alyn dies that the Velaryon's power and influence might have faded seeing as they are a powerhouse during DotD but just a minor bannerman in the present.

Yes, Addam dies a heroic death and Corlys is imprisoned in KL when Rhaenyra abandons the city. Alyn isn't really mentioned after his botched attempt to tame Sheepstealer.

I saw that comment the other day about Rhaenys being Viserys I's mother but I didn't see anything like that during my first read and I've read all the material about Rhaenys in my re-read. I think someone was mistaken.

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It is probably after Alyn dies that the Velaryon's power and influence might have faded seeing as they are a powerhouse during DotD but just a minor bannerman in the present.

Yes, Addam dies a heroic death and Corlys is imprisoned in KL when Rhaenyra abandons the city. Alyn isn't really mentioned after his botched attempt to tame Sheepstealer.

I saw that comment the other day about Rhaenys being Viserys I's mother but I didn't see anything like that during my first read and I've read all the material about Rhaenys in my re-read. I think someone was mistaken.

Yeah, I also don't believe that Rhaenys was Viserys' mother, since she married a Velaryon and thus all of her children would become Velaryons by name. But I thought that perhaps she was the mother of Laenor and Laena, and that Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor were her grandchildren. I had hoped there was something in the text supporting this theory.

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Do any of Rhaenyra's children ever refer to Rhaenys (the Queen who never Was) as their grandmother?

No, but that is exactly how she behaves when she goes off on her own to fight and dies. Later on Corlys is very cut up and says to Rhaenyra "it should have been you!", and that she should have let at least the boys join her. But they never say anything about familial relationships. Also in her "obit" in the book they say she was a grandmother.

Yeah, I also don't believe that Rhaenys was Viserys' mother, since she married a Velaryon and thus all of her children would become Velaryons by name. But I thought that perhaps she was the mother of Laenor and Laena, and that Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor were her grandchildren. I had hoped there was something in the text supporting this theory.

No, Rhaenys is not Viserys I's mother. Viserys and Daemon were said to have been full-brothers. Daemon was 49 when he died (?). Rhaenys died only a few months before him and she was 55.

For your family tree :drunk:

Spoiler
Beloved daughter of Lady Jocelyn Baratheon and Prince Aemon Targaryen, faithful wife to Lord Corlys Velaryon, mother and grandmother, the Queen Who Never Was lived fearlessly, and died amidst blood and fire. She was fifty-five years old.

It makes me cry,

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Lots of Bloodraven association in Aemond/Alys.

Alys Rivers, from the Riverlands (one would assume) like Bloodraven's mother, shares his bastard birth name and has the gift of prophesy, seeing visions in the fires. Pregnant with (presumably) Aemond's bastard. Aemond has one eye, and dies via Dark Sister, Bloodraven's eventual sword, being thrust into his blind eye.

Absolutely.

And what about Daemon cutting the weirwood tree in Harrenhal while waiting for Aemond? Did that have any significance? I'll have to watch out for

it in my re-reading the Arya chapters there.

What about Aemond's Baratheon Lady? Didn't he marry one of them?

We do not know, but all the Targs seemed to do their duty and then have paramours. For all we know half of Westeros is dargonseed.

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No, but that is exactly how she behaves when she goes off on her own to fight and dies. Later on Corlys is very cut up and says to Rhaenyra "it should have been you!", and that she should have let at least the boys join her. But they never say anything about familial relationships. Also in her "obit" in the book they say she was a grandmother.

No, Rhaenys is not Viserys I's mother. Viserys and Daemon were said to have been full-brothers. Daemon was 49 when he died (?). Rhaenys died only a few months before him and she was 55.

For your family tree :drunk:

Spoiler
Beloved daughter of Lady Jocelyn Baratheon and Prince Aemon Targaryen, faithful wife to Lord Corlys Velaryon, mother and grandmother, the Queen Who Never Was lived fearlessly, and died amidst blood and fire. She was fifty-five years old.

It makes me cry,

Thank you! That clears a few things up :)

Is it also mentioned where Baelon stood in the family tree? (brother of Rhaenys, or son of Jaehaerys, or something like that?)

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Thank you! That clears a few things up :)

Is it also mentioned where Baelon stood in the family tree? (brother of Rhaenys, or son of Jaehaerys, or something like that?)

No. Sorry. They only refer to him as he was the preferred choice over Rhaenys at the Great Council.

Now I am going to think who could have been Daemon's friend on the green council. He did have some rather unsavoury friends, mind.

The members were

Queen Alicent - no

Ser Otto Hightower - no

Ser Criston Cole - died for Aegon II

Grand Measter Orwyle - he always seemed to favour negotiations, so my money is on him

Ser Tyland Lannister - never trust a Lannister, so likely

Larys Strong - smuggled out Aegon II and Princess Jaehera

Lord Jasper Wylde ?

There may have also been a foreshadowing on the fate of House Lannister when

Rhaenys wanted them attainted and she was advised not to do it, as the other major houses would see it as a precedent, and would not like it.

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All in all, I found TPatQ to be a bit disappointing - it shows quite clearly what a remarkable story is contained within the dance of the dragons but it had the feel as if it had been cut down to one big info dump. (Which you'd pretty much expect from a maester writing a history but not from GRRM writing a story.)



There are some things I found extremely interesting after first reading:


  • Troop numbers seem to be a lot lower than in the other major Westeros wars that we've seen so far.
  • Some of the great houses do seem to hold back quite a lot: House Baratheon surprises everyone by choosing Aegon II but then I don't remember any important Baratheons mentioned anywhere. House Tully is never mentioned if I remember correctly.
  • You don't need a human/Targ to hatch dragons. Not really a surprise as dragons seem to have existed without human interference for a long time but it recalls the fact that all remaining dragon eggs can hatch during TWoW and ADoS and create turning points.
  • There's apparently no shortage of Targ bastards and they can become dragon riders as well. That makes me wonder how many of those born from bastard Targ lines will volunteer to be part of the 3-headed dragon.
  • People back then seem to be less afraid of dragons than in ASOIAF. Probably because they had learned in Dorne that dragons can die whereas in ASOIAF dragons are primarily the beasts come back from old fables.
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No. Sorry. They only refer to him as he was the preferred choice over Rhaenys at the Great Council.

Now I am going to think who could have been Daemon's friend on the green council. He did have some rather unsavoury friends, mind.

The members were

Queen Alicent - no

Ser Otto Hightower - no

Ser Criston Cole - died for Aegon II

Grand Measter Orwyle - he always seemed to favour negotiations, so my money is on him

Ser Tyland Lannister - never trust a Lannister, so likely

Larys Strong - smuggled out Aegon II and Princess Jaehera

Lord Jasper Wylde ?

There may have also been a foreshadowing on the fate of House Lannister when

Rhaenys wanted them attainted and she was advised not to do it, as the other major houses would see it as a precedent, and would not like it.

We don't know anything about Jasper Wylde, or at least, I don't know anything about him :p so he would be a big question mark.

But Tyland Lannister had lost his brother in the war if I'm correct, and that would be the brother who had chosen to support Aegon II. Perhaps he wanted to take revenge on his brothers death., I have no idea how the other Lannister died, so this might be an option?

The Grand Maester is, at one point, replaced by another Grand Maester, Gerardys, who will be fed to Aegon II's dragon. So perhaps Grand Maester Orwyle was a friend of Daemons, and he might even have had something to do with the death of Jaehaerys? I only know the young boy's death was heart breaking, and that Daemond had made sure it happened, but it most certainly must have been an act by someone inside KL.

Larys Strong seems to be a loyalist, which is strange to me, since Rhaenyra's eldest three children are said to have been Strongs, which would make them his relatives. Something must have happened there in the past as well, for a man to neglect his blood ties so...

So Rhaenyra wanted to forgive the Lannisters and get them on her side, but her people counciled her against doing so?

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There may have also been a foreshadowing on the fate of House Lannister when

Rhaenys wanted them attainted and she was advised not to do it, as the other major houses would see it as a precedent, and would not like it.

That doesn't have to mean much. Rhaenyra was still engaged in an ongoing war and had bigger problems to consider. But after a decisive victory things have been different and (from TPatQ perspective) will be different: House Casterly (the singers don't call it a vitory but a trick - linguistic difference), House Gardener, House Durrendon and, one league lower, the Houses Darklyn, Reyne and Tarbeck. They were not only attainted, they were completely eradicated. Doesn't happen often enough but happens.

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Now I am going to think who could have been Daemon's friend on the green council. He did have some rather unsavoury friends, mind.

The members were

Queen Alicent - no

Ser Otto Hightower - no

Ser Criston Cole - died for Aegon II

Grand Measter Orwyle - he always seemed to favour negotiations, so my money is on him

Ser Tyland Lannister - never trust a Lannister, so likely

Larys Strong - smuggled out Aegon II and Princess Jaehera

Lord Jasper Wylde ?

Daemon had the Goldcloaks abduct Orwyle when he was asked to send ravens by Alicent. But he did admit to Rhaenyra that she was the heir when he was sent to negotiate with her. So can't say.

Jasper Wylde is the anomally as not enough is known about him.

Larys Strong may have been playing both sides. Informing Daemon yet saving Aegon II and his children.

All in all, I found TPatQ to be a bit disappointing - it shows quite clearly what a remarkable story is contained within the dance of the dragons but it had the feel as if it had been cut down to one big info dump. (Which you'd pretty much expect from a maester writing a history but not from GRRM writing a story.)

There are some things I found extremely interesting after first reading:

  • Troop numbers seem to be a lot lower than in the other major Westeros wars that we've seen so far.
  • Some of the great houses do seem to hold back quite a lot: House Baratheon surprises everyone by choosing Aegon II but then I don't remember any important Baratheons mentioned anywhere. House Tully is never mentioned if I remember correctly.
  • You don't need a human/Targ to hatch dragons. Not really a surprise as dragons seem to have existed without human interference for a long time but it recalls the fact that all remaining dragon eggs can hatch during TWoW and ADoS and create turning points.
  • There's apparently no shortage of Targ bastards and they can become dragon riders as well. That makes me wonder how many of those born from bastard Targ lines will volunteer to be part of the 3-headed dragon.
  • People back then seem to be less afraid of dragons than in ASOIAF. Probably because they had learned in Dorne that dragons can die whereas in ASOIAF dragons are primarily the beasts come back from old fables.

I agree with you. It felt lacklustre to me but I'm very grateful for all the new information even if it wasn't a story but just a history book.

House Tully is mentioned once as being in charge of the Riverlands which is the wildcard in the pack of the regions. But you only hear about the bannermen fighting with Daemon and Roddy the Ruin. From what Ran said, I think the Tully's and Lannisters were fighting their own battles in the west. Lord Jason Lannister was killed during the conflict but we never see the battle.

Anyone else think that Forrest Frey extracted his toll from the Winter Wolves on their march south? :)

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But Tyland Lannister had lost his brother in the war if I'm correct, and that would be the brother who had chosen to support Aegon II. Perhaps he wanted to take revenge on his brothers death., I have no idea how the other Lannister died, so this might be an option?

The Grand Maester is, at one point, replaced by another Grand Maester, Gerardys, who will be fed to Aegon II's dragon. So perhaps Grand Maester Orwyle was a friend of Daemons, and he might even have had something to do with the death of Jaehaerys? I only know the young boy's death was heart breaking, and that Daemond had made sure it happened, but it most certainly must have been an act by someone inside KL.

Larys Strong seems to be a loyalist, which is strange to me, since Rhaenyra's eldest three children are said to have been Strongs, which would make them his relatives. Something must have happened there in the past as well, for a man to neglect his blood ties so...

So Rhaenyra wanted to forgive the Lannisters and get them on her side, but her people counciled her against doing so?

No, Corlys Velaryon counsels forgiving Lords Lannister, Hightower and Baratheon for taking up arms but Rhaenyra doesn't listen to him.

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Well, after reading the thing in full yesterday night - to the annoyance of my girlfriend and brother who wanted to sleep - I have to say that 'The Princess and the Queen' is indeed a poor contribution to the anthology as a story. Make no mistake, the Dance is interesting and makes for a good story, but not in this heavily edited fashion. There is no real focus on the two titular characters - especially not on Dowager Queen Alicent Hightower - nor are many of the characters or events mentioned and depicted in the story properly depicted.



Then there are quite a lot of mistakes (Prince Daeron is once called 'the youngest of King Aegon') and spelling errors ('Harrenhall', 'Aemon' - when Aemond is meant).



It's obvious that Archmaester Gyldayn has somewhat of a Targ fetish. He treats them as if the universe revolves around them and makes every Targaryen death a huge event. But then the story fails depict the non-death of Rhaenyra's son Viserys. One can guess how they came to believe he died, but since that would be a major event for Gyldayn one would really think that he would have mention it. He spent a lot of time depicting Jace's death.


We only can deduce that Viserys is dead from the fact that Aegon the Younger is repeatedly called Rhaenyra's last surviving son. For all we know he may also have 'died' after the sea battle



We also don't get any hint on the whereabouts of Lady Rhaena Targaryen. She went to the Vale of Arryn with Joffrey Velaryon, but we don't really know if she came back with him or not (my guess is not, and there are good reasons for that theory, but if that's the case then it should have been mentioned in the story).



The becomes an even greater problem with the various battles and battle commanders that are mentioned. The story would have profited greatly from a more thorough editing on these parts. Say, for instance, by just mentioning that people fought there and which side won. Instead of not properly introducing characters and expecting people to know that Ruddy the Ruin is (or may be) Lord Roderick Dustin.



I really think GRRM should consider to publish the full story of the Dance as soon as possible (i.e. after 'The World of Ice and Fire' is out).



A tidbit on genealogy:



It is is implicitly confirmed that Lord Corlys Velaryon and Princess Rhaenys Targaryen are the parents of Laenor and Laena Velaryon. When Aegon II offers Rhaenyra peace he intends to leave her Dragonstone and confirm her eldest son Jacaerys as heir to Dragonstone. He also offers to confirm Lucerys as heir to Driftmark, which essentially means that he has to be a descendant of Corlys. The fact that Laenor had a dragon also adds to that theory. I'm quite sure the Targaryens would not have given a dragon (egg) to a random Velaryon, nor would Viserys have married his daughter and heir to him if he had not been Rhaenys's son.


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Well, after reading the thing in full yesterday night - to the annoyance of my girlfriend and brother who wanted to sleep - I have to say that 'The Princess and the Queen' is indeed a poor contribution to the anthology as a story. Make no mistake, the Dance is interesting and makes for a good story, but not in this heavily edited fashion. There is no real focus on the two titular characters - especially not on Dowager Queen Alicent Hightower - nor are many of the characters or events mentioned and depicted in the story properly depicted.

Then there are quite a lot of mistakes (Prince Daeron is once called 'the youngest of King Aegon') and spelling errors ('Harrenhall', 'Aemon' - when Aemond is meant).

It's obvious that Archmaester Gyldayn has somewhat of a Targ fetish. He treats them as if the universe revolves around them and makes every Targaryen death a huge event. But then the story fails depict the non-death of Rhaenyra's son Viserys. One can guess how they came to believe he died, but since that would be a major event for Gyldayn one would really think that he would have mention it. He spent a lot of time depicting Jace's death.

We only can deduce that Viserys is dead from the fact that Aegon the Younger is repeatedly called Rhaenyra's last surviving son. For all we know he may also have 'died' after the sea battle

We also don't get any hint on the whereabouts of Lady Rhaena Targaryen. She went to the Vale of Arryn with Joffrey Velaryon, but we don't really know if she came back with him or not (my guess is not, and there are good reasons for that theory, but if that's the case then it should have been mentioned in the story).

The becomes an even greater problem with the various battles and battle commanders that are mentioned. The story would have profited greatly from a more thorough editing on these parts. Say, for instance, by just mentioning that people fought there and which side won. Instead of not properly introducing characters and expecting people to know that Ruddy the Ruin is (or may be) Lord Roderick Dustin.

I really think GRRM should consider to publish the full story of the Dance as soon as possible (i.e. after 'The World of Ice and Fire' is out).

A tidbit on genealogy:

It is is implicitly confirmed that Lord Corlys Velaryon and Princess Rhaenys Targaryen are the parents of Laenor and Laena Velaryon. When Aegon II offers Rhaenyra peace he intends to leave her Dragonstone and confirm her eldest son Jacaerys as heir to Dragonstone. He also offers to confirm Lucerys as heir to Driftmark, which essentially means that he has to be a descendant of Corlys. The fact that Laenor had a dragon also adds to that theory. I'm quite sure the Targaryens would not have given a dragon (egg) to a random Velaryon, nor would Viserys have married his daughter and heir to him if he had not been Rhaenys's son.

Well, the story is meant to contain a few mistakes, since it is written by a Maester, who wasn't present at most (or all) of these events). Though I agree that when nicknames are used, at one point it should be made clear who is actually meant, and that mistakes in writing names is not done.

About the Velaryons... This does leave us with the problem of where Aegon III's Velaryon wife came from. She could not have been a child of Alyn. How old was Addam when he died? Could he have fathered a child? That child would most likely be of an age to marry by the time Jaehaera had died, and the Driftmark could still have gone to Alyn

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