[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Barty]

Barty,

Same Cregan.

Thanks for clearing that up. :)

Looks like he ruled for a long time. Hope we get more details of the duel in the world book.

[Gurkhal]

only two northern houses wow i thought the north would march in full support of rhaenyra since they are also said to be friends with the queen who never was.

Without reading I would say that there could be more Houses but Dustin and Manderly might have been the ones who were most prominent. For example House Condon also marched south with Robb but we don't hear much about them despite the fact that they would seem to have been there.

[Barty]

Without reading I would say that there could be more Houses but Dustin and Manderly might have been the ones who were most prominent. For example House Condon also marched south with Robb but we don't hear much about them despite the fact that they would seem to have been there.

Maybe there were others who are not mentioned - but I dont think so. Roddy the Ruin(Roderik Dustin- the leader of the Northmen/Winter Wolves) only commanded an army of 2000. Too small to represent many houses apart from Dustin.

[Gurkhal]

Maybe there were others who are not mentioned - but I dont think so. Roddy the Ruin(Roderik Dustin- the leader of the Northmen/Winter Wolves) only commanded an army of 2000. Too small to represent many houses apart from Dustin.

Well, in that case it would seem that he didn't have more men than those form his own House. I'm both kind of suprised as well as kind of relieved. Seems like the theory that Martin wants to avoid a historic dragons-vs-Stark battle may hold more water than I thought.

[The Lady Lannister]

Any details on Joffrey's death and Aegon II vs Baela?

Yes, they are in the novel. If you have not read it yet, I do not want ti spoil it. Joff's death is the ultimate teenage disobedience. Baela v Aegon is let us just say she is Daemon's badass daughter.

[chrisdaw]

So is dragonriding ability a crude form of Targ genetic testing, with Targ descendant status being confirmed by the ability? Or is it that being a Targ descendant just ups the odds, and that individuals with not a drop of Targ blood can also theoretically ride dragons?

(I know GRRM has said that the third head of the dragon need not be a Targ, but the Targ-descended dragonseeds in TPatQ with dragonriding ability are not "Targaryens," either.)

It's left open still, no answers. It does seem that in Westeros it is an accepted truth that Targ blood is required.

So what was that "Blood and Cheese" thing? And what about Aegon II's personalilty? Ran called him a slimeball.

They're the names of two shady characters (with some shared symbolism with Varys and Illyrio) who brutally assassinate Aegon's eldest in front of his mother, grandmother and siblings in KL.

[Winter's Knight]

Such stupid people, my god. All that for a throne-and I cannot fathom what Aenod was thinking attacking his cousin unprovoked like that.

[Ran]

Unprovoked and unprovoked. As noted in the text, he lost his eye because of his cousins, so he had a particular hatred.

But yes, what he did was quite bad. He sounds a look like that generation's Aerion Brightflame, to be honest.

[Winter's Knight]

Unprovoked and unprovoked. As noted in the text, he lost his eye because of his cousins, so he had a particular hatred.

But yes, what he did was quite bad. He sounds a look like that generation's Aerion Brightflame, to be honest.

The text made it sound as though he lost his eye in an accident that involved his brothers?

Also: the two factions seem to have been at loggerheads for years, it surprises me that Viserys I didn't take steps to prevent some of the bad blood from forming. Why didn't he have Alicent and her children swear fealty to Rhaenyra for instance?

And, is there any truth to the claim that Rhaenyra would have had Aegon II and his sbilings killed if she took the throne?

And what do we know of Laenor V.? Bisexual, paedophile, homosexual?

ETA: also: Larys? Varys? Is that an in-joke or is there a family whose that's dedicated to just churning out Masters of Whispers?

[Sharpes]

Well, that was a fun, albeit dry, read. A few typos and tedious repetition but it was good to get back into something ASOIAF related. Still mulling over it as I originally started reading it with the wiki open and jotting down notes but decided to just go through it the first time. Some interesting parallels with the current storyline, though I wonder if they're just red herrings to keep us all guessing.

The Others are surely grinning with joy as the humans destroy their only leathery airforce. :)

I do wonder: why the change in the historical dating from AL to AC? (or vice versa?)

Think we're going to need a bigger map of the Riverlands though. So many places. :P

[Evrach]

Just finished.

It was very intersting but very frustrating too ^^;

Making the family tree is still a hard work. For Viserys I and Daemon's/Rhaenyra's offspring, it's quite good, except for the Velaryon's problem, but all the genealogy between Jaehaerys I and his grandsons is a big mess.

Edit : Made this speculative family tree. I figured that Aemon (Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was's father) was Jaehaerys's first born son and heir that died in 92. In 92 Jaehaerys had to choose between his granddaughter, Rhaenys (second generation and female, but the main branch), and his cadet, Baelon (closer and male, but cadet branch). He choose Baelon.

But Baelon died in 101, before Jaehaerys and a Great Council had been cast to rule succession and choose a new heir. Choice was between Rhaenys (again), Baelon's elder son (Viserys the Ist), and other claimants like Laena and Laenor (children of Rhaenys but maybe with claim by their father too). And Viserys was chosen.

Any correction to do ? (Ran ? ^___^ ) Of course it's speculative, we'll still have to wait for the worldbook to a canon complete tree...

[Gaston de Foix]

Unanswered questions

1. how do Sir Arryk and Sir Erryk die on each other's swords?

2. how does Rhaenyra have more Targ blood if her mother was an Arryn and Aegon's mother was a Hightower? Also, how does Rhaeynra have Baratheon blood from her mother?

3. Why does Larys Strong side with Aegon II if Rhaenrya's eldest three children are in fact Strong bastards?

4. If Aegon II accepted the Crown only because Sir Criston Cole persuaded him that Rhaenrya would be forced to execute him to ensure her children, succeed why is he outraged at her terms of peace?

5. Did Dalton Greyjoy accept the offer from the Black Council to become Master of Ships?

6. which of Borros Baratheon's girls (if any) did Aemond pledge to marry?

7. was Alicent, Rhaenyra or Rhaenys beloved of the small folk?

8. What happened to Visenya (the stillborn daughter) to give her a tail?

9. who is Daemon Targaryen's ally on the small council? And who is his "special friend", this "pale stranger" who he "trusts utterly"?

10. Does the description of a dragon as a "Queen" denote anything special? Syrax isn't called a queen and is both a she dragon and egg layer...

11. What promise does Jace make to the Maid of the Vale which requires Joffrey to fly Tyraxes to Gulltown?

12. What happened to Prince Viserys?

13. were there aurochs around in the Reach at the time of the Dance of the Dragons?

14. how did Longleaf the Lionslayer earn his soubriquet?

15. what response did the Lannisters and the Baratheons' give to Rhaenrya's offer of a pardon?

16. why did Sunfyre attack Grey Ghost?

17. what happened to Alys Rivers and Aemond's bastard (or trueborn) child?

18. who is Lady Mysaria and can she prophesise?

19. what happened to Prince Maelor and Princess Jaehaera?

[The Lady Lannister]

And what do we know of Laenor V.? Bisexual, paedophile, homosexual?

ETA: also: Larys? Varys? Is that an in-joke or is there a family whose that's dedicated to just churning out Masters of Whispers?

We only know that Ser Criston Cole hated Laenor's guts. He could have been straight for all we know, as Ser Criston equally detested Prince Daemon. He obviously expected Rhaenyra to marry him.

Gaston de Foix

Also, how does Rhaeynra have Baratheon blood from her mother?

I thought that she did not have Baratheon blood, her kids did. Their grandmother Rhaenys was the daughter of Lady Jocelyn Baratheon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Edit : Made this speculative family tree. I figured that Aemon (Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was's father) was Jaehaerys's first born son and heir that died in 92. In 92 Jaehaerys had to choose between his granddaughter, Rhaenys (second generation and female, but the main branch), and his cadet, Baelon (closer and male, but cadet branch). He choose Baelon.

But Baelon died in 101, before Jaehaerys and a Great Council had been cast to rule succession and choose a new heir. Choice was between Rhaenys (again), Baelon's elder son (Viserys the Ist), and other claimants like Laena and Laenor (children of Rhaenys but maybe with claim by their father too). And Viserys was chosen.

Any correction to do ? (Ran ? ^___^ ) Of course it's speculative, we'll still have to wait for the worldbook to a canon complete tree...

Nice draft of the tree. It would explain why Viserys was not considered the first time, but was considered the second time. I only wonder why Laena was considered, seeing as her mother and brother were still alive at that point. Perhaps she was the elder of the two?

[Winter's Knight]

We only know that Ser Criston Cole hated Laenor's guts. He could have been straight for all we know, as Ser Criston equally detested Prince Daemon. He obviously expected Rhaenyra to marry him.

Gaston de Foix

Also, how does Rhaeynra have Baratheon blood from her mother?

I thought that she did not have Baratheon blood, her kids did. Their grandmother Rhaenys was the daughter of Lady Jocelyn Baratheon.

Rhaenyra did marry him I thought? The text seemed to indicate that her first three sons, Jace-Joff were from Laenor, though Cole called them bastards. Her second husband Daemon (who apparently has a child from Laena V. presumably Laenor's sister) fathered Aegon III and the other boy whose name escapes me.

7. was Alicent, Rhaenyra or Rhaenys beloved of the small folk?

Rhaenyra was called the "Light of the Realm" by the smallfolk and Rhaenys the "Queen that never was". However when Rhaenyra took KL and found the coffers empty, by necessity taxes were raised to the dismay of the smallfolk, who promptly named her "Maeker with teats".

3. Why does Larys Strong side with Aegon II if Rhaenrya's eldest three children are in fact Strong bastards?

They are not "in fact bastards". It is a belief held and spread by the greens, presumablybecause Laenor, the father of her first three sons had a preference for either boys or men.

8. What happened to Visenya (the stillborn daughter) to give her a tail?

Sometimes babies are born with tails. Just like some are born with hair or teeth. Acardia could account for her lack of heart.

15. what response did the Lannisters and the Baratheons' give to Rhaenrya's offer of a pardon?

She didn't offer one. She wished to hunt down her brothers before offerring pardons.

[The Lady Lannister]

Rhaenyra did marry him I thought? The text seemed to indicate that her first three sons, Jace-Joff were from Laenor, though Cole called them bastards. Her second husband Daemon (who apparently has a child from Laena V. presumably Laenor's sister) fathered Aegon III and the other boy whose name escapes me.

Sorry Winter's Knight. I should have clarified what I meant. Perhaps Ser Criston Cole is so full of hate towards Rhaenyra's husbands and Rhaenyra, because Ser Criston hoped to marry Rhaenyra and he was spurned.

[Winter's Knight]

Sorry Winter's Knight. I should have clarified what I meant. Perhaps Ser Criston Cole is so full of hate towards Rhaenyra's husbands and Rhaenyra, because Ser Criston hoped to marry Rhaenyra and he was spurned.

Call me WK, everyone else does . :)

Oh I see. Sort of Richelieu eh? That might explain it yes.

The story is told from a maestar's PoV isn't it? There seems to be a lot missing.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Who's Lady Mysaria? Who are named paramount lords and ladies, like Boros Baratheon, Jeyne Arryn "Maid of the Vale"? Ran mentioned Daemon as Über-Targ, why :0 ?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sorry Winter's Knight. I should have clarified what I meant. Perhaps Ser Criston Cole is so full of hate towards Rhaenyra's husbands and Rhaenyra, because Ser Criston hoped to marry Rhaenyra and he was spurned.

Was Ser Criston Cole already a member of the Kingsguard when he fought as Rhaenyra's champion in the Tourney in 111 AL? If so, it could indeed be so that he had hoped to marry Rhaenyra, and thus hated all of her husbands later on in life.

Who's Lady Mysaria? Who are named paramount lords and ladies, like Boros Baratheon, Jeyne Arryn "Maid of the Vale"? Ran mentioned Daemon as Über-Targ, why :0 ?

Don't know about Lady Mysaria or the lords paramount, but Daemon was named Über-Targ, since he was so incredibly bad ass. He has also been called the Oberyn Martell of those times, if that gives you any indication :p

[Anath]

For those who had read the novella: is it revealed who The Queen Who Never was is? I read that she was Viserys I's mother but earlier on, at the reading about a month ago, she was said to be 55 years old. Since that would be Viserys's age as well, it doesn't seem possible.