[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Did the princess and the queen leave anyone else with the feeling that there may be more dragons in Westeros, present day, than Dany Dragons?

Or that Dany's Dragons may not be the trump card she thinks they are? Compared to Balerion and Vhagar, Dany's dragons are barely more than hatchlings. What if they're not ready for war yet? It would be somewhat GRRM-esque for Dany to land with her dragons and the dragons be killed immediately. Man that would be.... depressing.

[Nictarion]

It would be somewhat GRRM-esque for Dany to land with her dragons and the dragons be killed immediately. Man that would be.... depressing.

That would be as disappointing to me as the Others being defeated in one chapter.

[MoIaF]

Did the princess and the queen leave anyone else with the feeling that there may be more dragons in Westeros, present day, than Dany Dragons?

Or that Dany's Dragons may not be the trump card she thinks they are? Compared to Balerion and Vhagar, Dany's dragons are barely more than hatchlings. What if they're not ready for war yet? It would be somewhat GRRM-esque for Dany to land with her dragons and the dragons be killed immediately. Man that would be.... depressing.

I dono, GRRM said the birth of Dany's dragons was a miracle. Why would he create said miracle to then just turn around and say "sike, the birth of Dany's dragons is not such a big deal because there are other dragons around".

That seems like such a waste of story, but what do I know.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Did the princess and the queen leave anyone else with the feeling that there may be more dragons in Westeros, present day, than Dany Dragons?

Or that Dany's Dragons may not be the trump card she thinks they are? Compared to Balerion and Vhagar, Dany's dragons are barely more than hatchlings. What if they're not ready for war yet? It would be somewhat GRRM-esque for Dany to land with her dragons and the dragons be killed immediately. Man that would be.... depressing.

Perhaps not all three the dragons will survive, but only one? And that last surviving dragon (let's say Drogon :p) will be allowed to live free in the wild because dragons are not pets, and "if you love something, you set it free" or something like that?

I have no idea how big Dany's dragons are, compared with the dragons from the Dance-age. Sure, Balerion was huge, having died sometime between 48 AL and 103 AL. And Vhagar was big as well, being 181 when she died. And Meraxes´ skull was described as being in between Balerion´s and Vhagar´s in size, so she must have been around 180 as well when she died.

The thing is that dragons in captivity don't grow as big as the dragons who live in the wild. Drogon is obviously bigger than Viserion or Rhaegal, for Drogon has been living freely for about six months? Whereas Viserion and Rhaegal have been living in captivity during that time. So in size, Drogon is ahead. He'll be the strongest one of the three.

Dany's dragons are only two years old. So no, compared to Balerion, Meraxes or Vhagar, they are incredibly small indeed.

But I don't believe there are any dragons around other than Dany's three. Wasn't it stated that the magic was only getting stronger again (glass candles burning in the Citadel, spells of the pyromancers) after the birth of Dany's dragons? The pyromancer Tyrion meets with even asks Tyrion if he knows if there are dragons in the world again, because his spells are much stronger than they were before. If there are any other dragons besides Dany's, that would not make sense.

It might be that Nettels and Sheepstealer escaped Westeros and went to Essos. We know it's possible at least one dragons made it into the Red Waste, though it is unknown whether that was a wild dragon, or a dragon from Westeros. But Rakharo tells he had ridden through the skull of a dragon, so all we know is that a dragon has died there. However, that dragon could have been dead for many, many years.

[Lykos]

If we're assuming that Valyrian is based entirely on real-world languages. Without using the constructed language made for the show, we don't know that much about Valyrian, but we have some good guesses as to what dragons with "dragon" in their name might look like.

Dracarys is "dragonfire" we're told, and -rys is an ending we see a lot in names of Valyrian origin, reinforcing the cultural attachment to fire. We also would expect dragons like Sunfyre and Dreamfyre (along with the sword Blackfyre) to also end in -rys.

The English renderings of most dragon names don't seem self-referential, at least from the small sample size we have.

Well, I was just trying to explain how Snowfyre chorus came to the conclusion that Vermithor might mean thunder dragon. I actually don´t see a connection to the Stormlands or Baratheons in the name, since there seem to be no other norse inspired names used in this region by Martin. (Though Robert used a Hammer just as Thor did. :dunno: )

Vermithor could also be inspired by Tolkien´s Denethor since there also is Morghul, but vermis (lat. worm) seems to be the inspiration for Martin thinking of Vermax.

Martin has said that he didn´t develop complex languages as Tolkien did, but makes up the words as needed. These words do not come from nowhere though, do they?

A lot of names in Essos seem to be inspired by greek ending in os or ion. For example the city of Norvos rings of Arktos as it´s located in the north and has a bear cult and the story of Callisto could figure into it as well.

The rys for fire thing is interesting thinking of the fiery mane of the red Ryswell Horse, but there is no dragon ending with rys just Meleys. Also names like Silverwing and Sunfyre seem very self-referential to me, Vermithor and Vermax could be a mix.

Interesting. These kind of things should be asked in an SSM sometime, I think...

I´m afraid he´ll just say something noncommittal at this point. :)

I wonder if Syrax, Vermithor etc. named after the Valyrian gods/goddesses?

Yes, Tyrion mentions that they were named after Valyrian gods so most of the names wouldn´t be self-referential, but still fitting. For example all the ax names could be inspired by Abraxas and I like to think that Balerion was named after Bellerophon, the hero who rode Pegasus and slew the Chimera. This tradition might have changed at some point as Silverwing doesn´t seem to fit in. It would be interesting to know who named Vermithor. He was already over ten years old when Jaehaerys was born.

(No one else seemed to like the idea, but I haven't abandoned it.)

So I´m no one now? :P

Lord Varys, regarding Otto Hightower I think that Maester Pylos was judging him in hindsight and his legacy was to be a major cause of this mess for his ambition to have his grandchildren being the demigod like ruling dynasty of Westeros, though that´s probably bias on my part I can´t help seing him as anything but the forerunner of Tywin Lannister since I heard about the Dance of the Dragons.

ETA: anything but. And what Anath says after me seems very likely.

[Anath]

Regarding Otto Hightower: is it possible that Maester Pylos' description of him has something to do with the fact that he betrayed his king? As the King's Hand Otto must have sworn the vow to uphold Rhaenyra's claim.

Maester Pylos comes across as an honourable man striving to do the right thing and such a blatant betrayal of the king's will, completed with personal breaking of a vow and plunging the realm in a bloody war might not be to his liking.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I dono, GRRM said the birth of Dany's dragons was a miracle. Why would he create said miracle to then just turn around and say "sike, the birth of Dany's dragons is not such a big deal because there are other dragons around".

That seems like such a waste of story, but what do I know.

I read something about this recently. It seems that the major miracle of Dany's dragon's was her not being burned. We still don't know everything about hatching dragon eggs. Dany knows as much as we do. Nonetheless Dany's dragons are incredible but what is she overestimates how she can use them in battle (due to her ignorance) and gets them killed. I believe this would get resolved with Tyrion showing up but I think the opportunity is there for her to lose them.

As far as GRRM making a big deal out of something then snatching it away... I wouldn't be surprised. He's killed my dreams enough that i trust nothing! lol

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Perhaps not all three the dragons will survive, but only one? And that last surviving dragon (let's say Drogon :P) will be allowed to live free in the wild because dragons are not pets, and "if you love something, you set it free" or something like that?

I have no idea how big Dany's dragons are, compared with the dragons from the Dance-age. Sure, Balerion was huge, having died sometime between 48 AL and 103 AL. And Vhagar was big as well, being 181 when she died. And Meraxes´ skull was described as being in between Balerion´s and Vhagar´s in size, so she must have been around 180 as well when she died.

The thing is that dragons in captivity don't grow as big as the dragons who live in the wild. Drogon is obviously bigger than Viserion or Rhaegal, for Drogon has been living freely for about six months? Whereas Viserion and Rhaegal have been living in captivity during that time. So in size, Drogon is ahead. He'll be the strongest one of the three.

Dany's dragons are only two years old. So no, compared to Balerion, Meraxes or Vhagar, they are incredibly small indeed.

But I don't believe there are any dragons around other than Dany's three. Wasn't it stated that the magic was only getting stronger again (glass candles burning in the Citadel, spells of the pyromancers) after the birth of Dany's dragons? The pyromancer Tyrion meets with even asks Tyrion if he knows if there are dragons in the world again, because his spells are much stronger than they were before. If there are any other dragons besides Dany's, that would not make sense.

It might be that Nettels and Sheepstealer escaped Westeros and went to Essos. We know it's possible at least one dragons made it into the Red Waste, though it is unknown whether that was a wild dragon, or a dragon from Westeros. But Rakharo tells he had ridden through the skull of a dragon, so all we know is that a dragon has died there. However, that dragon could have been dead for many, many years.

GRRM has mentioned in interviews "Oh you hear stories of dragons in far off lands". Reminds me of an interview I read pre-ASOS(?) about there being 4 weddings. I refuse to be surprised :) though i know i will be

[Lykos]

Anath, Pylos betrays Stannis though by helping Davos to smuggle Edric away from Mel. So it´s probably not just about upholding vows, but the result. Otto didn´t give peace to the realm but a horrible civil war. I really like Pylos.

[Iona]

I read something about this recently. It seems that the major miracle of Dany's dragon's was her not being burned. We still don't know everything about hatching dragon eggs. Dany knows as much as we do. Nonetheless Dany's dragons are incredible but what is she overestimates how she can use them in battle (due to her ignorance) and gets them killed. I believe this would get resolved with Tyrion showing up but I think the opportunity is there for her to lose them.

As far as GRRM making a big deal out of something then snatching it away... I wouldn't be surprised. He's killed my dreams enough that i trust nothing! lol

I was also under the impression that when this miracle thing was addressed, it had more to do with the "Targs-are-fireproof" thing. GRRM is sly enough to leave a backdoor open for another dragon.

With regards to saying that there can't have been dragons since magic was dead before Dany's three hatchlings... I wonder, the R'hllorists seemed to have some magicky things going on even before the birth of new dragons - maybe not the kiss of fire stuff, but they did see things in their fires even before Dany's pyre.

[Anath]

Anath, Pylos betrays Stannis though by helping Davos to smuggle Edric away from Mel. So it´s probably not just about upholding vows, but the result. Otto didn´t give peace to the realm but a horrible civil war. I really like Pylos.

Oh yes, the peace to the realm was no doubt the most important consideration for Pylos.

Pylos was a maester, not a Grand Maester. Was his vow to Stannis or the castle? I seem to remember that maesters were bound to the castle, not the lord. Example: the maester of Winterfell kept serving Theon.

Still, I have no doubt that even if Pylos had given his vow to Stannis' person, he would have smuggled Edric anyway. But betraying one's vow and causing a war... I can't see someone like him taking it well.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I was also under the impression that when this miracle thing was addressed, it had more to do with the "Targs-are-fireproof" thing. GRRM is sly enough to leave a backdoor open for another dragon.

With regards to saying that there can't have been dragons since magic was dead before Dany's three hatchlings... I wonder, the R'hllorists seemed to have some magicky things going on even before the birth of new dragons - maybe not the kiss of fire stuff, but they did see things in their fires even before Dany's pyre.

I agree. That's why i think there's a possibility for GRRM turning what is known about dragons and magic on it's head.

[Maia]

When Bran had his near-death three-eyed-crow visions, he saw a lot of things that were really happening at the time and had some visions of near-future. Among them were dragons in Ashai. So, there are either were dragons there already at the time of Bran's accident or there going to be some soon.

Personally, I began to suspect that ebbing and waxing of magic fluctuate naturally and that it was magic becoming stronger is what allowed Dany's dragons to hatch, not the other way round.

And their hatching was a miracle because:

The eggs were too old to hatch naturally

Dany herself didn't burn in the pyre.

[MoIaF]

I read something about this recently. It seems that the major miracle of Dany's dragon's was her not being burned. We still don't know everything about hatching dragon eggs. Dany knows as much as we do. Nonetheless Dany's dragons are incredible but what is she overestimates how she can use them in battle (due to her ignorance) and gets them killed. I believe this would get resolved with Tyrion showing up but I think the opportunity is there for her to lose them.

As far as GRRM making a big deal out of something then snatching it away... I wouldn't be surprised. He's killed my dreams enough that i trust nothing! lol

Here is what he said:

George_RR_Martin: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

It seems to me like he is saying both the birth of the dragons and Dany surviving the pet are miracles. I'm not saying that the dragons will be a deus ex machina against the Others but they'll be important especially Drogon.

Of course as you said he can do as he wishes is his story and it wouldn't be the first time he kills someone (thing) we care about. :D

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

How did you conclude Vermithor might mean "storm dragon" or "thunder dragon"? Did that come solely from the nickname "The Bronze Fury"?

"Verm-" being a variation of the Old English "wyrm" or the Latin "vermis"... and "thor" (English via Old Norse, proto-Germanic) meaning "thunder" or "storm".

[History of Westeros]

The storm wyrm translation is cool, but I'm doubtful that it's more than a coincidence.

In another thread it was pointed out that GRRM is a big fan of the movie "Dragonslayer". The dragon in that movie is called Vermithrax.

This is probably the source for the names Vermithor and Vermax.

[Ran]

Yep, Verimthrax is definitely the influence for those dragon names.

[Lykos]

Yes nice, but I think Martin doesn´t take these names unreflected and is aware of their meanings and origins. And by the way in the german translation the dragon is named Seraphon. :P

[Miley Targaryen]

I read something about this recently. It seems that the major miracle of Dany's dragon's was her not being burned. We still don't know everything about hatching dragon eggs. Dany knows as much as we do. Nonetheless Dany's dragons are incredible but what is she overestimates how she can use them in battle (due to her ignorance) and gets them killed. I believe this would get resolved with Tyrion showing up but I think the opportunity is there for her to lose them.

As far as GRRM making a big deal out of something then snatching it away... I wouldn't be surprised. He's killed my dreams enough that i trust nothing! lol

I'm sorry but this is completely wrong about Dany's arc.

Dany rather underestimates her dragons, she freaking locked them up the whole of ADWD and tried using other methods.

How does that show she overestimates, seriously?

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Here is what he said:

George_RR_Martin: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

It seems to me like he is saying both the birth of the dragons and Dany surviving the pet are miracles. I'm not saying that the dragons will be a deus ex machina against the Others but they'll be important especially Drogon.

Of course as you said he can do as he wishes is his story and it wouldn't be the first time he kills someone (thing) we care about. :D

I'm going into the Winds of Winter wary as a fox. :eek: