[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Colonel Green]

While reading tpatq I had assumed his friend was the master of whispers. He remained silent while the traitors plotted and only spoke up after the lc murdered the 1 guy, to say that they should swear a blood oath. It always seemed to me he was just trying to seem like a traitor.

That makes no sense, though -- Larys singlehandedly kept the Greens in business.

[HexMachina]

"...where Targayens were RIGHTLY regarded as being closer to gods than the common run of me."

Interesting, particularly when they are a maester's words

[King of the Bastards]

ok, so forgive me if I haven't read all 101 pages and this has been brought up before ;) but what do you think does it mean that Rhaenyra had a miscarriage that looked like a dragon (tail and all) in reference to Dany's miscarriage in AGOT that also looked somewhat like a dragon? could it be a common kind of miscarriage amongst Targs? does that mean, she could get pregnant?

I, myself, think that MMD just wanted to make Dany feel miserable and lost, and hasn't really cursed or something like that

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

ok, so forgive me if I haven't read all 101 pages and this has been brought up before ;) but what do you think does it mean that Rhaenyra had a miscarriage that looked like a dragon (tail and all) in reference to Dany's miscarriage in AGOT that also looked somewhat like a dragon? could it be a common kind of miscarriage amongst Targs? does that mean, she could get pregnant?

I, myself, think that MMD just wanted to make Dany feel miserable and lost, and hasn't really cursed or something like that

Dany's child was still alive until a few minutes before the birth, yet it looked as if it had been dead for months. This was blood magic.

Rhaenyra's child had several deformities, but not all too strange. They happen in real life as well. Keep in mind that the child will most likely not have looked exactly as described. It's a story that people have been telling each other, and as is stated in asoiaf, people like nothing more than telling each other strange stories about their lieges.

[King of the Bastards]

Dany's child was still alive until a few minutes before the birth, yet it looked as if it had been dead for months. This was blood magic.

Rhaenyra's child had several deformities, but not all too strange. They happen in real life as well. Keep in mind that the child will most likely not have looked exactly as described. It's a story that people have been telling each other, and as is stated in asoiaf, people like nothing more than telling each other strange stories about their lieges.

Of course miscarriages happen in real life, too. But the similarities of the malformed children are so striking, that I find it hard to believe its appearance in the story doesn't mean anything.

"Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat." MMD in AGOT

"... a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby, scaled tail." TPATQ

[HexMachina]

As Rhaenys said though, Rhaego was unquestionably alive until Dany went into the tent, so his deformities can easily be put down to MMD and her blood magic. There may be similarities but its hardly possible that Dany's baby was like that throughout his time in the womb - not that someone says Danys baby was dead for YEARS. Obviously impossible, so in the absence of alternative explanations, i would put this down to magic. There is a thread somewhere but I think it was locked for length, and I believe it was mentioned in this thread too. Try the search bar using This Topic as a filter with scaled baby or something

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Of course miscarriages happen in real life, too. But the similarities of the malformed children are so striking, that I find it hard to believe its appearance in the story doesn't mean anything.

"Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat." MMD in AGOT

"... a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby, scaled tail." TPATQ

In real life, children can be born with tails, and with skin conditions that make it look as if they have scales like fish (which, because of the Targaryen sigil, would in this case be called dragon scales).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Of course miscarriages happen in real life, too. But the similarities of the malformed children are so striking, that I find it hard to believe its appearance in the story doesn't mean anything.

"Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat." MMD in AGOT

"... a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby, scaled tail." TPATQ

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100583-princess-and-the-queen-confirmsspoliers/

here's my theory on the subject :)

I think it is ignoring massive amounts of the text and a cop-out answer to say that both births were Icthysios or whatever real-world disease causes scales. And if that were the case, then why dont any other families have babies like that? why didnt Joffrey have a tail? his parents are twins.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100583-princess-and-the-queen-confirmsspoliers/

here's my theory on the subject :)

I think it is ignoring massive amounts of the text and a cop-out answer to say that both births were Icthysios or whatever real-world disease causes scales. And if that were the case, then why dont any other families have babies like that? why didnt Joffrey have a tail? his parents are twins.

Like I said, Rhaego's deformations were most likely caused by MMD.

The skin disease that causes scale-like skin has several types. There are a few dominant ones. The rares types of the disease occurs in fewer than one in a million people, and are recessive, which means that you need to have 2 alleles (both of your parents have to be a carrier of the gene).

With recessive genes, there's a 50% chance that a child inherits it from one parent. If both parents are carriers, there is a 25% chance that the child will get the disease, and a 50% chance that the child will become a carrier. There's also a 25% chance that the child will be completely healthy, and not have the disease nor being a carrier. The situation becomes more complicated when there are multiple genes involved in the disease occuring, and I'm not sure just how many genes there are involved.

The thing is, it is possible that the trait disappears from the family, even when it's a disease caused by a dominant gene... explaining why it's possible that no other child in the family had such a condition.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Like I said, Rhaego's deformations were most likely caused by MMD.

The skin disease that causes scale-like skin has several types. There are a few dominant ones. The rares types of the disease occurs in fewer than one in a million people, and are recessive, which means that you need to have 2 alleles (both of your parents have to be a carrier of the gene).

With recessive genes, there's a 50% chance that a child inherits it from one parent. If both parents are carriers, there is a 25% chance that the child will get the disease, and a 50% chance that the child will become a carrier. There's also a 25% chance that the child will be completely healthy, and not have the disease nor being a carrier. The situation becomes more complicated when there are multiple genes involved in the disease occuring, and I'm not sure just how many genes there are involved.

The thing is, it is possible that the trait disappears from the family, even when it's a disease caused by a dominant gene... explaining why it's possible that no other child in the family had such a condition.

ok so your 'theory' on the 2 targ dragon-babies has nothing to do with magic, but is solely based on real world crazy disorders. I'm sure that's what GRRM had in mind when writing these fantasy novels.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

ok so your 'theory' on the 2 targ dragon-babies has nothing to do with magic, but is solely based on real world crazy disorders. I'm sure that's what GRRM had in mind when writing these fantasy novels.

I stated above twice that I believe Rhaego's deformations were the result of MMD's bloodmagic. I even did so in the post you quoted, when I said Rhaego was the result of MMD.

Visenya I have my doubts about. Everything can easily be explained, and with the story having been told by people to one another for 100 years before someone wrote it down will have changed details and turned it into the account we've read in the princess and the queen.

[Lord Varys]

I'd say that Visenya is clearly a nod to Rhaego by the author. The fact that there are real-world diseases causing (some of) the symptoms from which Visenya and Rhaego suffered doesn't mean that Visenya suffered from such a disease. Rhaego most certainly was killed by Mirri maz Duur's magic, he was the sacrifice to save Drogo's life, but this doesn't mean that he was healthy child before that.

I very much doubt that Visenya suffered from a normal real world disease because it has already been confirmed by GRRM that genetics work differently in his world. An example would be that it's downright impossible in our world that the members of a family that inbred for about 300 years - not counting the inbreeding on Dragonstone and in Valyria - would be as relatively healthy as the present Targaryens are (both mentally and physically).

It's not impossible that the disfigurement of both Rhaego and Visenya was caused by the stress of their mothers during the birth, rather than, in Rhaego's case, by Mirri's magic.

[The hairy bear]

An example would be that it's downright impossible in our world that the members of a family that inbred for about 300 years - not counting the inbreeding on Dragonstone and in Valyria - would be as relatively healthy as the present Targaryens are (both mentally and physically).

The Ptolomeans in Egypt were far worse than the Targaryens. In fact, the amount of in-breedness of the Targs tends to be exagerated:

Taking as an example Dany petrilineal unions: Aerys II (incest), Jaehaerys II (not incest), Aegon (N), Maekar (?), Daeron II (N), Aegon IV (I). So it's two or three out of six.

Now compare with queen Cleopatra: Ptolemy XII (I), Ptolomy IX (I), Ptolomy VIII (I), Ptolomy V (NI), and Ptolomy IV (I). Five out of six. A she was a clever politician and reportedly a beauty of her time.

[Ran]

Just got some exciting news that I think many of you fans of "The Princess of the Queen" will be equally excited about. Keep your ears to the ground.

[FrozenFire3]

Just got some exciting news that I think many of you fans of "The Princess of the Queen" will be equally excited about. Keep your ears to the ground.

You'll tease us to hell(s) and back ;)

[Lord Varys]

Come on, Ran, say it: Full and unabridged version of TPatQ (and other GRRMarillion stuff). Anything else doesn't really interest us, or does it? Well, a HBO series on the Dance could also be interesting, but I'd much rather like to read the full text...

[Ran]

You know that plenty of people will be happy for anything they can get, and won't pretend to be uninterested in anything but an unabridged GRRMarillion. That said, you're free to not read anything that isn't the GRRMarillion. :)

[HexMachina]

Just got some exciting news that I think many of you fans of "The Princess of the Queen" will be equally excited about. Keep your ears to the ground.

My ears to the ground, how long do I need to stay here? :( Also, care to give us a hint? Anything at all? Go on, you know you want to. Even just tell us where on when this news will come from?!

[Ran]

Won't say more. :) I expect the news will be "soon", but I can't say how soon that will be.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I'll read everything else as well, of course. Thought I could get another clue using that ploy, but you are way too clever... Anyway, I'm looking forward to whatever it is...