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[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion


chrisdaw

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So, in long run Rhaenyra was the one who won.

Not really. She lost her life to her half-brother and her own son pretty much disallowed any women to ever again sit on the Iron Throne under House Targaryen. Thus even while her son did gain the seat I can't see it as anything but a defeat for her.

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Not really. She lost her life to her half-brother and her own son pretty much disallowed any women to ever again sit on the Iron Throne under House Targaryen. Thus even while her son did gain the seat I can't see it as anything but a defeat for her.

Yes but it was her line that was continued not Aegon's.

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So, in long run Rhaenyra was the one who won.

No one won. The whole thing was one big screw up and considering the personalities involved it's not surprising.

Reading it makes me wonder why they didn't get rid of the Targs as soon as the dragons had gone. There are ten arsehole Targs for every good one. Like the ironborn with dragons.

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Yes but it was her line that was continued not Aegon's.

That is of course true but what she pretty much lost what she seems to have fought for. She didn't get the throne and women were barred for ever sitting on the throne. Can't really call that a win when she fought for her right as a women to inherit the throne on equal basis as her brothers (at least that's my personal interpretation).

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No one won. The whole thing was one big screw up and considering the personalities involved it's not surprising.

Reading it makes me wonder why they didn't get rid of the Targs as soon as the dragons had gone. There are ten arsehole Targs for every good one. Like the ironborn with dragons.

well this is true except for dissing the targs part (the best thing that happened to westeros this family is), but alas a family civil war no one can be a real winner. Especially since it crippled the targ family so much, they lost many of their dragons and weakened the family line. Not to mention the amount of years it will take to build back trust among the family .

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That is of course true but what she pretty much lost what she seems to have fought for. She didn't get the throne and women were barred for ever sitting on the throne. Can't really call that a win when she fought for her right as a women to inherit the throne on equal basis as her brothers (at least that's my personal interpretation).

Is it confirmed that Women are barred ?

So Dany has no claim?

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there are men from collateral relationships.. like Doran martell, and Stannis baratheon.. even (f)aegon

For Aegon to count, people will first need to know about him :P When he gets accepted as truly the son of Rhaegar, his claim will be stronger than Dany's claim.

And about Doran... I'm not sure if first the main branch will need to be completely gone. Dany's from the main branch whereas Doran is from a side-branch. I'm pretty sure that, even though she is a woman, Dany's claim will be stronger than the claim any Martell could make. And any Baratheon, for that matter.

Should Dany die, and Aegon turn out not to truly be Aegon, but fAegon, then I guess the throne would go to the eldest male of the first most recent side-branch... which would be the Baratheons, and in this case Stannis. Should Stannis also die, the throne would go to the Martells, in this case Doran.

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That is of course true but what she pretty much lost what she seems to have fought for. She didn't get the throne and women were barred for ever sitting on the throne. Can't really call that a win when she fought for her right as a women to inherit the throne on equal basis as her brothers (at least that's my personal interpretation).

She didn't fight for equal primogeniture, she fought for her rights against a coup which was acknowledged as such by many people. Rhaenyra was the acknowledged heiress of Viserys, and fealty was sworn to her by the lords of Westeros. She fought to uphold that right and that oath and she won. Aegon's side lost and all the progeny of Viserys by Alicent Hightower died

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It's worth noting that Aegon actually resisted taking the crown, insisting it belonged to his sister, and only committed to it when he was convinced that because of the uncertain legitimacy of her eldest sons she would have to get rid of him and his children to clear their way to the throne...

... at least according to one account, anyways. ;)

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If Dany has dragons and the other side don't that overrides any hereditary laws. Strictly speaking though she had no claim. In fact I don't think she considers putting herself on the throne, only her son, until after the dragons gave hatched so she may well know about the law and not care.

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Is it confirmed that Women are barred ?

So Dany has no claim?

We should not get confirmation from princess and queen, because it ends with Rhaenyra´s death and thus omits the end of the war and whatever the words of the succession law was that passed in the aftermath.

Can't really call that a win when she fought for her right as a women to inherit the throne on equal basis as her brothers (at least that's my personal interpretation).

Who was the true heir by that right? Rhaenyra? Or Rhaenys the Queen that Should Have Been, who was still alive for Rhaenyra to fight for?
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She didn't fight for equal primogeniture, she fought for her rights against a coup which was acknowledged as such by many people. Rhaenyra was the acknowledged heiress of Viserys, and fealty was sworn to her by the lords of Westeros. She fought to uphold that right and that oath and she won. Aegon's side lost and all the progeny of Viserys by Alicent Hightower died

Isn't it settled with marriage between the two sides in the end? If so it was a draw.

I think the fight was over who would rule so they both lost. If it had been about whose kids would inherit the that could have been sorted out with marriages.

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For Aegon to count, people will first need to know about him :P When he gets accepted as truly the son of Rhaegar, his claim will be stronger than Dany's claim.

And about Doran... I'm not sure if first the main branch will need to be completely gone. Dany's from the main branch whereas Doran is from a side-branch. I'm pretty sure that, even though she is a woman, Dany's claim will be stronger than the claim any Martell could make. And any Baratheon, for that matter.

Should Dany die, and Aegon turn out not to truly be Aegon, but fAegon, then I guess the throne would go to the eldest male of the first most recent side-branch... which would be the Baratheons, and in this case Stannis. Should Stannis also die, the throne would go to the Martells, in this case Doran.

then women are not barred.. they are just kicked down the line..Dany before Rhaelle Targaryen.. therefore Dany before Stannis

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I think the character Nettles is probably not a Targ bastard. The way she bonds with a wild dragon, bringing it sheep to eat until it gets used to her presence, seems to me to be GRRM hinting at how the Valyrians originally bonded with wild dragons. So I think bonding can happen through "friendship" with the dragon as well as through dragonrider blood but for the people of Westeros dragonrider=targ blood.

Yes! They were shepherds! Shepherding is seems to be important :O

Mirri Maz Duur was from Lhazar...

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Few other things popped up over the course of the evening...

It isn't stated anywhere which dragon belonged to Viserys I which I find rather odd since most of the older dragons have a previous rider listed.

Daemon is said to have a friend on the Green Council, who could it be?

Interesting quote about Rhaenyra's first husband. "we know what Laenor was." in reference to the fact that Rhaenyra's sons are bastards and unlikely to be Laenor's. Was Laenor gay?

"You, my lord? I hardly think so." This is Rhaenyra's reply to Corlys Velaryon re: finding more dragon riders. Is it just because he is too old or he doesn't have enough dragonblood in him?

The Kingdom of the Three Daughters. Are Myr, Tyrosh and Lys allied states under one rulership?

There's one more that was omitted from TPatQ. So four dragons in total.

Maelor, Little Viserys' or Rhaena's eggs hatch maybe? ;)

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Tons of interesting things in this -- but I'm really intrigued by all the Targaryan women that keep having deformed miscarriages.

For instance, when Princess Rhaenyra goes into labor early, after finding out her father was dead and her throne stolen, her whole birthing scene seems oddly familiar:


"The princess shrieked curses all through her labor, calling down the wroth of the gods upon her half brothers and their mother the queen, and detailing the torments she would inflict upon them before she would let them die. She cursed the child inside her too. “Get out,” she screamed, clawing at her swollen belly as her maester and her midwife tried to restrain her. “Monster, monster, get out, get out, GET OUT!” When the babe at last came forth, she proved indeed a monster: a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby, scaled tail."

Anyone else getting flashbacks of Dany?

"He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. “They say the child was ...” She waited, but Ser Jorah could not say it. His face grew dark with shame. He looked half a corpse himself.

“Monstrous,” Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was
stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. “Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years.

More interestingly, both Princess Rhaenyra and Dany suddenly feel as if a dragon has awoken after their children die. For Rhaenyra, it was an internal dragon that awoke after her second son's death:

"Only the gods truly know the hearts of men, and women are full as strange. Broken by the loss of one son, Rhaenyra Targaryen seemed to find new strength after the loss of a second. Jace’s death hardened her, burning away her fears, leaving only her anger and her hatred. Still possessed of more dragons than her half brother, Her Grace now resolved to use them, no matter the cost.

And Dany, too, had a similar feeling when she woke after MMD's ceremony -- a feeling of internal heat:

"She should weep, she knew, yet her eyes were dry as ash. She had wept in her dream, and the tears had turned to steam on her cheeks. All the grief has been burned out of me, she told herself. She felt sad, and yet ... she could feel Rhaego receding from her, as if he had never been.

But, absent her child, Dany began to feel a new heat from her dragons' eggs, one of which she slept with as she recovered and the others she hovered over after she awoke:

“Bring me ... egg ... dragon’s egg ... please ...” ... When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon’s egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her. All her fear was gone, burned away.


Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon’s eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but it seems like Targaryan women + miscarriage = "dragons awaken"
Which I think is pretty interesting...
[but, it also begs the question of what Dany is going to receive following her miscarriage in ADwD]
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