[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Lord Varys]

Ran, does Munkun not cover Blood and Cheese, then? If he did, people would have had known about the tunnels, wouldn't they?

[Hardstone]

Didn't Baelor the Blessed burn loads of books during his reign? Was Gyladyn's among them? I seem to recall Septon Barth's tome was particularly rare after the Septon King's rule.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Gyldayn's history of the Targaryens is a lost work, parts of it rediscovered only recently. There's a story behind that which the world book will explain.

Thanks much. That bit of info changes some of my conclusions.

[Nictarion]

Just got done with TPatQ, so good! The Targs are so damn entertaining. Loved all the dragons, especially Silverwing (her trying to revive her dead cousin was heartbreaking) and Coraxes. Daemon jumping on Vhagar and killing Aemond was definitely my favorite part. Felt bad for Aegon's and Rhaenyra's kids. I definitely sided with the Blacks. Rhaenyra was a pretty tragic character.

[WinterWarrior]

Yes, my Kindle edition had all kinds of typos.

My Nook version does not, unless I missed them. I have only read it once. Didn't notice any typos at all. Amazon released the pre-ordered Dangerous Women ebooks before the release date, maybe they had an earlier version. Barnes and Noble released the Nook version on the release date.

[Ran]

People have always known about the tunnels under the Red Keep. The specifics of how Blood and Cheese got into the chambers in the Tower of the Hand are less known, and I couldn't speak as to what Munkun or others recorded or what conclusions they made.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...Vermithor is offhandedly referred to as "the Bronze Fury". I'm wondering if that's a hint that King Jaehaerys (Vermithor was born "when the Old King was young" and supposedly nobody had ridden him since Jaehaerys's death) had a Baratheon mother?

I'm guessing you're right about this. I hadn't considered the Baratheon words, but the construction of the name "Vermithor" did catch my eye as possibly meaning "storm dragon" or "thunder dragon." Together with the "Fury" moniker, it looks like a strong connection between the dragon and the House.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

People have always known about the tunnels under the Red Keep. The specifics of how Blood and Cheese got into the chambers in the Tower of the Hand are less known, and I couldn't speak as to what Munkun or others recorded or what conclusions they made.

Isn't Cheese a rat catcher? It makes sense that while he's tracking the little vermin he'd find hidden passages, and once you've found one it's just a matter of following it to find the others.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Cregan might not have gone to battle because he was the only Stark and had to remain in Winterfell.

Most of the Overlords didn't go into battle as I think they were hedging their bets. If Cregan went South maybe another House or even another Stark member would make a deal with the Greens to get control of the North if they won.

Also I think the reason for the relative small size of the armies is that no one wanted another 'field of fire'. With multiple dragons on the loose a Lords entire army could be wiped out and they could be left vulnerable to their enemies.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, the tunnels in itself are no secrets. But it's somewhat weird that the powerful Hands who served under uninterested or boy kings (Tywin, Bloodraven) did not dig up and close the passageways that led into the very own bedrooms. That's a hidden dagger at your throat. Even if you think you control the whole Realm someone could send an assassin into your apartment and kill you.

On Blood and Cheese:

I'm starting to wondering if we got the whole picture on that. Gyldayn does not name the culprits nor the Black man on the Green Council or this 'go-between' guy. Even the real names of Blood and Cheese are lost to history (which may indicate that they were never caught). The original source for the episode in Alicent's apartments has to be Alicent herself. She is the only one who got out of the whole thing as a sane person (if Jaehaera is really a lackwit she is a most unlikely source). The one explicit line in the text linking Daemon to the Blood and Cheese incident is the line 'an eye for an eye, a son for a son' which he supposedly mentioned in his letter from Harrenhal to Dragonstone.

I'm starting to wonder whether the whole thing got out of control. The smart thing would have been to take out Alicent as well, or even better, to take her and Helaena as hostages. It's easily imaginable that Daemon hired two freelancers through way to many middlemen and thus did not have direct control on what actually happened.

The fact that Cheese supposedly was a rat-catcher suggests that he stumbled upon the secret passages during his work. Varys says that Maegor had built a secret escape route into Maegor's Holdfast - and thus somebody could have used that to get in there - but I guess this is really top secret. On the other hand, the Targaryens themselves (i.e. Daemon) should know about it.

[RumHam]

Yeah, the tunnels in itself are no secrets. But it's somewhat weird that the powerful Hands who served under uninterested or boy kings (Tywin, Bloodraven) did not dig up and close the passageways that led into the very own bedrooms. That's a hidden dagger at your throat. Even if you think you control the whole Realm someone could send an assassin into your apartment and kill you.

They're a danger but also an asset if you ever need to escape. Tywin does seem to have known about the tunnels, and immediately realizes Varys must have shown Tyrion. Maybe he figured he had Varys under his heel.

I'm starting to wonder whether the whole thing got out of control. The smart thing would have been to take out Alicent as well, or even better, to take her and Helaena as hostages.

I've seen other people suggest a taking of hostages, but how are you gonna lead various members of the royal family through those tiny tunnels that you have to crawl through? Not to mention sneaking them out of the city afterwards...

[Lord Varys]

To continue my take on the Targaryens and their dragons:

As I've said, it does seem that all of Aegon's children had the opportunity to bond with young dragons (Aenys got Quicksilver and the fact that Maegor dismissed the other dragons as beneath him suggests that his sisters bonded with them - the Cannibal may be one of the dragons who did not get a rider because there were no Targaryens left). Furthermore, we do know that all the children of Aenys we do know by name - Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Rhaena - did bond with young dragons, too. It's possible that Aenys had more children, but I'd be very surprised to learn that they failed to become dragonriders or were killed/maimed/disfigured while trying to bond with Balerion or Vhagar.

I think Quicksilver was not passed to another rider; it may turn out that he was killed along with Aenys.

But there has to be some major dragonslaying event before the Dance. Besides Vermithor, Silverwing, and Dreamfyre no dragons of the generation of Aegon's grandchildren seems to be around. Even if we assume that two Jaehaerys's children claimed Vhagar and Balerion after the deaths of Maegor and Visenya there would have to be some additional new dragons for any of Jaehaerys's other siblings and their descendants. From the generation of the grandchildren of Jaehaerys only Meleys and Caraxes seem to be around at the time of the Dance. Surely Viserys I had also a dragon. And since Rhaenys's children also got dragons of their own it would make sense that the children and grandchildren of Princess Rhaena also did get some (if we assume that she had children).

I guess there was some sort of war/crisis during the reign of Jaehaerys which did kill quite a few of the Targaryen dragons, including Balerion.

On the chance of Targaryens being rejected/killed by their dragons during the Dragonstone era:

This does not seem very likely, either. Aenar brought five dragons from Valyria to Dragonstone (one of them being Balerion). Vhagar and Meraxes later hatched on Dragonstone (Vhagar apparently in the 61 BC). If the other dragons lived to see that happening then the Targaryens had at one point seven dragons pre-Conquest. Only three lived to the time of Aegon I. What we know of Aegon's ancestors on Dragonstone is that a lot of (elder) male Targaryens failed to continue the line. I've speculated that there may have been some sort of struggle for supremacy among them, some sort of Dance 0.0. We do know that male Targaryen branches were not continued and that at least four Targaryen dragons died during the Dragonstone era. This does not seem to indicate to me that these Targaryens were killed by their dragons. Rather that both the Targaryens and their dragons died at the same time. I guess it is technically possible that the Targaryens put some of their dragons to death because they did kill some of their children, but if that would be the case one would wonder while they still ride dragons in later eras. My best guess is that there was some sort of struggle among the parent generation of Aerion Targaryen, which let to the death of his father and uncles - and possibly his grandfather and granduncle as well - and left Aerion dragonless. The only surviving dragons would be Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, who then would be claimed by Aerion's children.

[Anath]

I've seen other people suggest a taking of hostages, but how are you gonna lead various members of the royal family through those tiny tunnels that you have to crawl through? Not to mention sneaking them out of the city afterwards...

It would be easier with the children, though: take them, gag them, drag them, leave their mother frantic and their father possibly heirless if he keeps insisting on keeping the crown.

Maybe Daemon really didn't have this much control over the details. Or he might have been as bloodthirsty as Oberyn describes himself.

[Jaak]

They're a danger but also an asset if you ever need to escape. Tywin does seem to have known about the tunnels, and immediately realizes Varys must have shown Tyrion. Maybe he figured he had Varys under his heel.

Even then, the obvious move would have been find all the entrances and block them with doors that close on the side of the occupant. Varys would need to bring tools, spend time and make noise breaking in.

[-Ghost-]

Im starting my re read and noticing the typos in the book version too. I just saw that when Daeron is told about Viserys death, it says that he wept for his grandsire.

[Ser Lepus]

Im starting my re read and noticing the typos in the book version too. I just saw that when Daeron is told about Viserys death, it says that he wept for his grandsire.

That's an errata, I think.

EDIT: I have re-read my post and realized that I'm just repeating what you just said... :blushing:

[alguien]

I'm starting to wondering if we got the whole picture on that. Gyldayn does not name the culprits nor the Black man on the Green Council or this 'go-between' guy. Even the real names of Blood and Cheese are lost to history (which may indicate that they were never caught). The original source for the episode in Alicent's apartments has to be Alicent herself. She is the only one who got out of the whole thing as a sane person (if Jaehaera is really a lackwit she is a most unlikely source). The one explicit line in the text linking Daemon to the Blood and Cheese incident is the line 'an eye for an eye, a son for a son' which he supposedly mentioned in his letter from Harrenhal to Dragonstone.

I really wondered just who Daemon's mysterious go-between was as well.

Also, him using assassins like that seems sort of... I don't know, slightly out of character, for him. Not that he's too pure, he kinda reminds me a bit of the Red Viper. But it seems like he'd want to do the killing himself, not send hired hands.

But I guess for all that he's an amazing warrior, and performed one of the few movie action hero moves we see in ASOIAF, we don't know a lot else about his exploits.

[PrimeRhaegar]

To continue my take on the Targaryens and their dragons:

As I've said, it does seem that all of Aegon's children had the opportunity to bond with young dragons (Aenys got Quicksilver and the fact that Maegor dismissed the other dragons as beneath him suggests that his sisters bonded with them - the Cannibal may be one of the dragons who did not get a rider because there were no Targaryens left). Furthermore, we do know that all the children of Aenys we do know by name - Jaehaerys, Alysanne, and Rhaena - did bond with young dragons, too. It's possible that Aenys had more children, but I'd be very surprised to learn that they failed to become dragonriders or were killed/maimed/disfigured while trying to bond with Balerion or Vhagar.

I think Quicksilver was not passed to another rider; it may turn out that he was killed along with Aenys.

But there has to be some major dragonslaying event before the Dance. Besides Vermithor, Silverwing, and Dreamfyre no dragons of the generation of Aegon's grandchildren seems to be around. Even if we assume that two Jaehaerys's children claimed Vhagar and Balerion after the deaths of Maegor and Visenya there would have to be some additional new dragons for any of Jaehaerys's other siblings and their descendants. From the generation of the grandchildren of Jaehaerys only Meleys and Caraxes seem to be around at the time of the Dance. Surely Viserys I had also a dragon. And since Rhaenys's children also got dragons of their own it would make sense that the children and grandchildren of Princess Rhaena also did get some (if we assume that she had children).

I guess there was some sort of war/crisis during the reign of Jaehaerys which did kill quite a few of the Targaryen dragons, including Balerion.

On the chance of Targaryens being rejected/killed by their dragons during the Dragonstone era:

This does not seem very likely, either. Aenar brought five dragons from Valyria to Dragonstone (one of them being Balerion). Vhagar and Meraxes later hatched on Dragonstone (Vhagar apparently in the 61 BC). If the other dragons lived to see that happening then the Targaryens had at one point seven dragons pre-Conquest. Only three lived to the time of Aegon I. What we know of Aegon's ancestors on Dragonstone is that a lot of (elder) male Targaryens failed to continue the line. I've speculated that there may have been some sort of struggle for supremacy among them, some sort of Dance 0.0. We do know that male Targaryen branches were not continued and that at least four Targaryen dragons died during the Dragonstone era. This does not seem to indicate to me that these Targaryens were killed by their dragons. Rather that both the Targaryens and their dragons died at the same time. I guess it is technically possible that the Targaryens put some of their dragons to death because they did kill some of their children, but if that would be the case one would wonder while they still ride dragons in later eras. My best guess is that there was some sort of struggle among the parent generation of Aerion Targaryen, which let to the death of his father and uncles - and possibly his grandfather and granduncle as well - and left Aerion dragonless. The only surviving dragons would be Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, who then would be claimed by Aerion's children.

i like this theory, sadly i feel we will never be able to prove it otherwise.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The first time he was introduced, he was called Daeron the Darling. Then they called him Daeron the Daring the next two times and it made more sense. But yeah, plenty of typos on the ereader. Aemond's name changed to Aemon too many times... tsk tsk.

Daeron being called Daeron the Darling is not in the book version. The first time his nickname is used, it is also Daring. Perhaps the typo's differ between versions?

Gyldayn's history of the Targaryens is a lost work, parts of it rediscovered only recently. There's a story behind that which the world book will explain.

Aaaah, awesome! Can't wait! :D

Ran, does Munkun not cover Blood and Cheese, then? If he did, people would have had known about the tunnels, wouldn't they?

The existence of the tunnels are well known, aren't they? People just don't know how to get in them, or where they end.

I'm guessing you're right about this. I hadn't considered the Baratheon words, but the construction of the name "Vermithor" did catch my eye as possibly meaning "storm dragon" or "thunder dragon." Together with the "Fury" moniker, it looks like a strong connection between the dragon and the House.

How did you conclude Vermithor might mean "storm dragon" or "thunder dragon"? Did that come solely from the nickname "The Bronze Fury"?

I doubt that only Baratheons and their relatives have the right to have nicknames with the word Fury in it.

I've seen other people suggest a taking of hostages, but how are you gonna lead various members of the royal family through those tiny tunnels that you have to crawl through? Not to mention sneaking them out of the city afterwards...

Larys did sneak out Aegon, Jaehaera and Maelor, now didn't he? That couldn't have been an easy task, with Aegon still wounded and under the influence of poppy of the milk, and who would thus need help walking and climbing stairs, Jaehaera a small child who would have been needed to hold hands, and Maelor, a child of two, who would be need to carried.

Helaena could have easily been brought through the passages because when faced with the threath of the death of (another) one of her children. Alicent could have been dragged, or they could have tried the same tactic as I suggested with Helaena.

It is not at all impossible, and there has never been any indication given that all the tunnels require crawling. Illyrio was walking through the tunnels, and he's huge. Can you see him crawling? I guess there are plenty of tunnels you can walk though.

So, I just finished the story myself, and wow.... simply wow... I didn't even notice all the cutting of the information, except at the ending. That might be because I had to read it in 5 or 6 portions due to the little time I had.

A few things.

First of all, Luke's death was so very tragic, and Aemond could do nothing well in my eyes thereafter. He took the title of Protector of the Realm when Aegon was too injured, and refused the crown - but did state he would look better with it, which I also took to mean that he'd do better at the job, according to himself.

The death of little Jaehaerys, and Helaena's madness that followed it, was the most horrific thing that happened, imho. They were children, the most innocents of the entire Targaryen family. To kill a child because someone else killed the nearly adult son of another, is just not done. I understand why Daemon ordered it, but it was the only thing about him I didn't like. It was awesome, though, that Daemon still had so many friends in the city.

It was amazing to see Rhaenyra's mental state go down the way it did. She lost son after son, and family members dropped death around her. There was treason everywhere. It's amazing to see how well she kept up, until Jace and Helaena had died, and Daemon and Corlys had abandonned her cause. That's when she stopped thinking straight.

The feast of corpses - what to say about that? It was one of the most brilliant strategies I ever saw, though I found it difficult to read corpses were used for this as well (as the diversion feasts the army encounters the first few days). Though I found it absolutely amazing that an entire army managed to disguise themselves as corpses, and attack together all so suddenly.

And then, the dragons. Most of them died, and I found it so sad. I couldn't help but smile when the young Blackwood lord ordered the Blue Queen Tessarion slain to end her suffering. This showed at least a few people did not consider the dragons as simple monsters, but as living beings with feelings as well. That could be easily forgotten when you see the firebreathing beasts.

The dying of the dragons was a sad thing. Especially the death of Grey Ghost, who was so shy that I already loved him immediately.

Having read this, I can't wait for the World book, to read how the war ends. And, my hopes for reading the 80.000 version will remain, for the entire text will be even more incredible as this one, should it ever be released. :)

[Daenerys Flint]

Just finished reading the PatQ... OMG! This is clearly the Maesters devilish work. History is written by the victors and it sounds very much like the Maesters were motivated, actively involved and documenting the civil war. I dont believe any of it...

Every time magic crops up in GRRM's world. People fear it or try to control it to gain power. So in some ways the Maesters could be doing the world a favour but i feel sorry for the Starks and Targs. Everyone wants a bit of Kings blood for themselves! Or to kill them so there is no more Kings blood! Bad times! The Maesters are clearly playing both sides to eliminate the dragons. What a coincidence... All those dragons tied up in the Dragon pit... And in marches an army of dragonslayers to kill the lot at any cost... Bullsh!t.. I dont believe the account of how Aemon died... Nor that Aegon went to Dragonstone without the queen knowing... Theres something about the queens letter to the Baratheons and how badly it was received that makes me think it was the maesters playing chinese whispers... The slandering of the bastards as treacherous and trying to throw their lot in for the kingship with no more right than the fact they have a dragon!? ... Women going mad left right and centre, cuts from the iron throne!? C'mon!? its laugh out loud funny how transparent it is! This has to be propaganda against all magic... dragons, magic bloodlines and even women (strikes me as strange the maesters are a male order - c'mon alleras!) The only winners in all this is the people who want dragons dead... And DwD Marwyn tells us it was the maesters...this must be what he was talking about surely? All too suspicious for me... All i really took from that novella is the same as from asoiaf... Too many manipulators behind the scenes trying to make a grab for power...