[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I'm sorry but this is completely wrong about Dany's arc.

Dany rather underestimates her dragons, she freaking locked them up the whole of ADWD and tried using other methods.

How does that show she overestimates, seriously?

I mean that Dany doesn't know very much about dragons. She's learning but what she does know of dragons is that her ancestors used them to conquer Westeros. We learned a lot about using dragons in battle during TPatQ information that, as of now, Dany doesn't have. She can't even make Drogo fly where she wants him too. I think she'll master a lot of that in the winds of winter, but the possibility of overestimating (underestimating?) a dragon's vulnerability in battle is possible. Mistakes were made by Targaryens before, Rhaenys and Meraxes in Dorne comes to mind. And if we assume that Meraxes at the time was "battle ready", Dany's dragons are possibly smaller than that making them more vulnerable. Which Dany understandably may not expect in battle based on the information she has now.

[l2 0 5 5]

The Hightower's have a lot to do with the events that unfold in this story. A lot of Hightower's die as well. I understand that the events in this story, and the events that take place in the current ice and fire series are about 170 years apart, but I'm wondering if the Hightower's in current Westeros stay out of the war and squabbles of the realm because of the heavy casualties they took during the Dance of the Dragons? Perhaps they, like the Northman, are not interested in what goes on in KL after seeing all of the treachery that can take place when you choose a side.

[alguien]

Roddy the Ruin....holy crap. good day to be a fan of the northmen.

I did start picturing the eminent "Rowdy" Roddy Piper screaming wolf howls and charging forward when I read this part. :)

[l2 0 5 5]

All the typos...Kinda weird right?! And while I loved this story, it was clearly a last minute substitute for the Dunk and Egg Tale. It all feels a tad rushed. Hopefully it's not something to be concerned about!

Yeah. I was surprised by the number of typos I noticed as well. You'd think an editor would catch those obvious ones, but I suppose new eyes on something (such as ours) are more adept to catching stuff like that as opposed to someone who has been looking at it nonstop before publication.

[Iona]

I've been thinking... we get to see the dragonriders using saddles, and that they are chained onto those saddles to prevent them from falling during aerial fights. I can't help but to think about Tyrion and his special saddle, and the one he designed for Bran. I searched the thread and saw someone already mentioned Tyrion's saddle-related knowledge, but I don't think it was discussed more thoroughly.

Tyrion might be hooking up with Dany and might share with her all the dragonlore he's absorbed, including some saddle designs, but...

What about Bran? We've already seen him ride in one special saddle and we might also say he's been riding Hodor in his basket. But what really nags me now is BR telling Bran that he will never walk, but he will fly... Nevermind the ravens, could Bran become a dragonrider?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I've been thinking... we get to see the dragonriders using saddles, and that they are chained onto those saddles to prevent them from falling during aerial fights. I can't help but to think about Tyrion and his special saddle, and the one he designed for Bran. I searched the thread and saw someone already mentioned Tyrion's saddle-related knowledge, but I don't think it was discussed more thoroughly.

Tyrion might be hooking up with Dany and might share with her all the dragonlore he's absorbed, including some saddle designs, but...

What about Bran? We've already seen him ride in one special saddle and we might also say he's been riding Hodor in his basket. But what really nags me now is BR telling Bran that he will never walk, but he will fly... Nevermind the ravens, could Bran become a dragonrider?

I can see two ways the saddles will be made, either through tyrion from his expertise, since riding a horse is like a dragon in his case.

Or the dothraki and their expertise in horses might help find a way for a saddle on a dragon to work.

[-Ghost-]

Has anyone finished an updated family tree? I thought I saw one but couldn't open it on my phone and can't find it again.

[History of Westeros]

http://www.lagardedenuit.com/wiki/index.php?title=Maison_Targaryen_%28g%C3%A9n%C3%A9alogie_test%29

is the best I've seen so far in terms of a visual tree. A few assumptions but very solid.

[jarl the climber]

I dono, GRRM said the birth of Dany's dragons was a miracle. Why would he create said miracle to then just turn around and say "sike, the birth of Dany's dragons is not such a big deal because there are other dragons around".

That seems like such a waste of story, but what do I know.

The hints that we have been given by the Alchemists in Kings Landing, Quarth and from Marwyn in the Citadel is that there have been no dragons for over a hundred years. Thats why the glass candles have started working again and it easier for the Alchemists to make wildfire. The evidence we have so far is against any dragons from this era surviving.

[Ghost's Shadow]

But Bran sees dragons in Asshai, or where was it again.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Maybe Nettles is mad at the Targaryens because Daemon let her escape and she run and she hates them and she's Quaithe. Because magic.

[jarl the climber]

But Bran sees dragons in Asshai, or where was it again.

I think these dragons, if they exist are different from the Valyrian dragons which had some sort of special bond with their Valyrian riders based on blood. The only conclusive evidence that we have is various sources reporting an increase in their arcane powers and that some of them believe that its due to Dany's dragons.

[-Ghost-]

I kinda really hope we hear more about Dalton Greyjoy, the Red Kraken. The Lord Reaper of Pyke was said to love blood and battle, and was described as daring and bloodthirsty. Quite a reputation at only 16 years old. Hopefully there's some info in the world book.

[Ran]

There's indeed a deal of information.

[Fire Eater]

It is said that all the treasures the Sea Snake brought back form the east were burned. Did the Sea Snake get into any piracy whilst he fought in the Stepstones like Warwick the Kingmaker on his anti-piracy campaign, or did he go on a trading voyage?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

GRRM has mentioned in interviews "Oh you hear stories of dragons in far off lands". Reminds me of an interview I read pre-ASOS(?) about there being 4 weddings. I refuse to be surprised :) though i know i will be

Yeah, there are stories... But there are also stories in our world :) That doesn't necessarily mean that it's true.

I mean that Dany doesn't know very much about dragons. She's learning but what she does know of dragons is that her ancestors used them to conquer Westeros. We learned a lot about using dragons in battle during TPatQ information that, as of now, Dany doesn't have. She can't even make Drogo fly where she wants him too. I think she'll master a lot of that in the winds of winter, but the possibility of overestimating (underestimating?) a dragon's vulnerability in battle is possible. Mistakes were made by Targaryens before, Rhaenys and Meraxes in Dorne comes to mind. And if we assume that Meraxes at the time was "battle ready", Dany's dragons are possibly smaller than that making them more vulnerable. Which Dany understandably may not expect in battle based on the information she has now.

Meraxes was most certainly battle ready. She fought in the Field of Fire, Rhaenys aided Orys Baratheon by bringing Meraxes to the Stormlands, and entered Dorne at least twice in an attempt to conquer it.

Tyrion tells us that Meraxes was smaller than Balerion, but bigger than Vhagar. Which has made me think. Meraxes died in Dorne along with Queen Rhaenys, right? Balerion died between 48 AL and 103 AL at the age of 200 years, and Vhagar died in 130 AL at the age of 181 AL. So Vhagar was born in 51 BC, and Balerion was born between 152 BC and 97 BC.

Would this make Meraxes the oldest dragon of the three? Because Tyrion is looking at the skulls when he notices this, so Meraxes was smaller than Balerion and bigger than Vhagar when she died. Yet she died long before either Balerion and Vhagar. Meraxes must have thus been older than 181 and younger than 200 years old. But wouldn't that place her birth even before Balerions? All we further know about Meraxes is that her egg hatched on Dragonstone, which makes it weird that she had been bigger (and thus older) than Vhagar, for the Targaryens only arrived on Dragonstone a bit more than 100 years before the Conquest.

[Gaston de Foix]

There's indeed a deal of information.

Ran is there any information about the "special friend" the "pale stranger" he trusted utterly to organise Blood & Cheese? And the Green Council traitor?

[kaspar]

Finally finished the book.

I rooted for the Blacks since the beginning. Best dragon would be Moondancer. However best characters are definitely Daemon, Nettles and Addam.

In the books we were shown how even targ bastards, members of other families from Valyria or maybe even people not connected to Valyria at all are able to tame dragons (even the wild ones). Wouldn't it be cool if (f)Aegon was able to tame a dragon for himself even though he'd not be who he claims he is?

[Ran]

Gaston,

Yes to the first.... maybe to the second.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Finally finished the book.

I rooted for the Blacks since the beginning. Best dragon would be Moondancer. However best characters are definitely Daemon, Nettles and Addam.

In the books we were shown how even targ bastards, members of other families from Valyria or maybe even people not connected to Valyria at all are able to tame dragons (even the wild ones). Wouldn't it be cool if (f)Aegon was able to tame a dragon for himself even though he'd not be who he claims he is?

In the book it says They practiced the right of First Night on Dragonstone for 200 years, meaning the Targ seed was spread around a lot, a whole lot, generations and generations of bastards and their children and grandchilren would mean dragonstone would be quite populated with relations to the royal family.. And when they were looking for the volunteer riders they only used bastards "born of dragonseed".

"Prince Jacaerys needed more dragonriders, and more dragons, and it was to those born of dragonseed that he turned." then it says that not all who came forward were seeds. then it is not specific about if Hugh and Ulf were dragon seeds or not but then when describing the wild dragon tamers it only refers to them as "drgaonseeds" implying that the non-seeds had all chickened out by that point. And it also does not say specifically about Nettles lineage, it seems like its not known.

Then towards the end of the book it says "Though Hammer's ambition was unseemly in one born so low, the bastard undeniably possessed some targaryen blood, and had proved himself fierce in battle and open-handed to those who followed him, displaying the sort of largesse that draws men to leaders as a corpse draws flies."

--so it is very unclear if the riders had Targ blood or not, but it is suggested. And it definitely cannot be said for sure that the riders did not have targ blood. It is inconclusive.