[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[The hairy bear]

Lord Varys,

I share your feeling that the missing parts are frustrating, but I'm not sure it could have been done much better without increasing the size of the novella (which I suppose, was not allowed) or summarizing events. And I think I prefer having entire theaters of the war omitted, than having text that does not come from GRRM.

Anyway, good breakdown of what we have probably missed. It would be interesting to do a list of everything we know for sure that has been cut (the Cargyll twin's deaths, Addam's death and Alyn's reaction,...)

Specifics:

Storm's End is way too close to KL and Dragonstone to be ignored by Rhaenyra, nor do I think it likely that Daemon and Rhaenyra did not intend to avenge Lucerys by dealing with Borros personally.

(...)

It may be that a whole campaign by Rhaenyra's forces has not been covered by the story. Either before she took KL, or afterwards. Storm's End and Borros were a really dangerous knife at her throat and it just doesn't make any sense not to deal with him before trying to take the capital

(...)

This is especially felt when Gyldayn jumps from starting to tell Prince Viserys's fate after he has been caught to Jace's attack on the Triarchy's fleet. No one tells us what Corlys and Rhaenyra did during all of that.

I think you might have found the answer, here. Rhaenyra wanted to avenge Luce before attacking KL (or perhaps it was a diversion). We know that Syrax fought lord Swann. That's why she's absent during the Gullets.

One 'Longleaf the Lionslayer' (no idea who or from which house he is)

We can bet on House Blanetree.

It's also quite likely that Dalton Greyjoy sided with the Blacks. Daemon thought that he hungered for blood and glory. Being a rather young Lord Reaper of Pyke my guess is he was not as firmly in control of the Ironborn to try to secede from the Iron Throne (this would have forced to face dragons, eventually). But if Daemon asked or offered him to attack Lannisport, Casterly Rock, and all the western coast lands held by the Lannisters (and carry away all the wealth he could carry) this should have looked much more promising to him then to sit on the Green council. The fact that Ser Otto had to convince the Kingdom of the Three Daughters to deal with the Velaryon fleet suggests that the Ironborn fleet did not fight for Aegon II.

While what you suggest is quite possible, I prefer another possible explanation: as you say, the host of northmen that assembled at Winterfell is not accounted for. And I'd add that it's weird that Lord Cregan Stark (a famous swordman in his prime) doesn't participate in the war. So perhaps the absences of Cregan and Dalton have the same explanation, and they were fighting each other across the Western coast of the North.

I think Balerion died in 92 AC - or shortly before that - along with his possible rider, Prince Aemon Targaryen (the father of Princess Rhaenys). That would make much sense, wouldn't it? Jaehaerys would most likely give Balerion to his eldest son and heir, wouldn't he? And he was free after Maegor died... Vhagar is old in TPatQ but far from being frail. And she died about 20 years before Balerion. I think there is a good chance that Balerion did not die of old age.

It could be. But isn't Jaehaerys reign supposed to be mostly peaceful? Sadly I'm afraid we don't have much information to really judge.

By the way: How old do you think is the Cannibal in 129 AC? Did he hatch before or after the Conquest?

When Hugh Hammer proclaims himself king, Gyldayn says that he had a point because Verminthor was the oldest dragon in Westeros. So it's after the Conquest.

In fact, just now I'm thinking... at this point Silverwing was still alive. If we take as a fact that Verminthor was hatched by Jahaerys and Silverwing by Alysanne, that would mean that he was the older sibling. Sadly, Dreamfyre had just died by this point, so we can't know if Rhaena was the eldest.

[Veltigar]

While what you suggest is quite possible, I prefer another possible explanation: as you say, the host of northmen that assembled at Winterfell is not accounted for. And I'd add that it's weird that Lord Cregan Stark (a famous swordman in his prime) doesn't participate in the war. So perhaps the absences of Cregan and Dalton have the same explanation, and they were fighting each other across the Western coast of the North.

I hope it isn't. I would like to see Stark and Greyjoy ally for once or otherwise just stay out of each other's way.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

I just pointed out the phrase "small child" means something other than what you seemed to think it meant. It wouldn't normally be used to describe a 16 year old girl. That is all. We don't disagree about Nettle's age or size.

I think it means Nettles is most likely between the size of Meera (who's slightly taller than an 8 year old boy) and Arya an 11. That makes her a small child, not a toddler, at least, in my book.

Daemon knows Larys isn't dead, but he also knows Larys is on the lamb with the king and unlikely to return to claim his family seat and establish himself as Lord Strong of Harrenhal.

How does he know he's with King? We know he's not with King, but we don't know where he is. We know he's well connected, it's his job, and that he's the type to work form behind the scenes, also part of his job. We and Daemon have every reason to think that Larys is cunning and dangerous and able to influence events from a far given his connections and influence, specifically in the region in question. Larys wouldn't have to establish himself as lord of Harrenhal to try and coordinate an assassination attempt.

I agree it's a theme in the books, but I don't think it's exclusively an old gods thing. That speech Ellaria Sand gives about the cycle of vengeance comes to mind.

Ellaria's passage doesn't use any of the same motifs (old wounds, bleed afresh) nor does she say anything of any historical significance. She tries to convince the Sand Snake to not seek vengeance for Oberyn. She only talks about Elia/kids, Robert/kids, Tywin/Mnt, Obyren/kids. She's talking about a beef that is less than 20 years old. Hoster's talking about a beef that goes back thousands of years and w/ specific reference to the Dance/Daemon. There is an obvious connection between Hoster's comments in ADwD and Daemon's story in tPatQ. There is however no connection between either of these passages and the passage in which Ellaria Sand tries to convince the sand snakes to forego vengeance, and she doesn't even mention this in any large context about about some long historical cycle of vengeance.

So Daemon's special friend is...a tree? :) I'm sure if I looked I could find other phrases that only appear twice in the books, without there being some hidden connection.

okay... :uhoh:

Still not seeing the connection to the old gods, we're just gonna hafta agree to disagree.

I don't think that Daemon "faked his death" on purpose, I think he figured he was almost certainly going to die. (you've lived too long uncle / on that we can agree.) The he survived and washed up on the Isle and Faces THEN he became linked to the old gods and may have later influenced Bloodraven though visions or whatever.

If Daemon ends up as green man, which you clearly accept as a possibility, than all of these hints are the textual clues pointing toward that possible outcome.

I was wrong about the Riverrun heart tree being described as tall, my bad. Still slender and small do not mean the same thing. There are a few possibilities regarding it's size. The original one may have been cut down by the andals, only to be replanted later. People have also theorized that weirwoods don't grow with time like other trees, but from blood sacrifice or something. Either way I would expect it to be an "adult" tree by now.

Slender...Small...Semantics....Semantics...Semantics. Slender is being used in this passage to indicate the heart tree in Riverrun is small. The heart tree is described in manner that emphasizes it's smallness relative to the other trees around which are described in a way that emphasizes their largeness. Given what we know about most heart trees this makes the one in riverun small. It's the only active godswodd that we see where the heart tree is described in such a manner. I'm not theorizing why it's small, nor am i arguing it's not an adult tree, I'm saying it's described in the text in way that makes it appear as though it is small.

Yes. but as I said before we aren't given any context or shown anyone's reaction to him doing so. I'm not saying I'm 100% sure that cutting pieces off a heart tree is blasphemous. Still the fact that one person (who you're just assuming was Brandon Snow) did it when nobody else was around does not make it kosher. Even is making arrows and bows from the heart tree is considered socially acceptable, there's a difference between that and carving marks into a tree because you're bored or to mark the time. None of the heart trees we've seen are described as bearing marks where people have carved into them. (now I'm just picturing Brandon <3 Catlyen carved into the Winterfell heart tree.)

All of the heart trees we've seen are described as bearing marks where people have carved into them.

We see Bran reactions throughout the passage and there's nothing to indicate he thought the act was particularly blasphemous. FWIW, he does find the act of blood sacrifice objectionable and cried out to try and stop it. It's not as if the dark-eyed youth was acting as though he was engaged in shameful act, he was doing it in the full sight of the gods.

If it's not Brandon Snow than there was another individual in the WF godswood who kept the old gods and made weapons out of wood harvested from the heart tree. Given that we know bloodraven used a weirwood bow, and that Brandon Snow planned on using 3 weirwood arrows during the conquest, and that there's the spearwife w/ the weirwood mask and staff, we have at least 3 maybe 4 northerners engaged in the same behavior. And all three are in positions of esteem, Bloodraven becomes the 3-eyed crow and is called the last green man (Bran III ADwD), Brandon Snow was clearly close to the Torhhen and was sent to Aegon to negotiate peace terms w/ 3 maesters instead of arrows, and the spearwife who's name is escaping me was one of the leaders of the Free Folk Jon sought to win over to his cause. There are other instances in which keepers of the faith use wierwood objects. For instance, Bran ate the weirwood/jojen paste out of a weirwood bowl that he dropped and let clatter on the floor after he finished.

So youre saying that Daemon Targaryen turned into a green man?

yes. yes i do. here are some of the relevant posts up thread #1173, #1108, #1105, #665, #740, #676 . Lord Varys, Hazoo, and some other folks have also made some posts pointing toward the possibility.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Yeah, I always thought they were some other type of race, if real. I didnt think you could become one, just learn from them, like the Howland story.

Bloodraven tells Bran that he's a greenseer because of his blood. This would seem to imply that Bloodraven is also a greenseer because of his blood. And Daemon is Bloodraven's great-grandfather. Bloodraven's also referred to as the last greenseer by leaf/the CotF, according to Bran III ADwD.

[Lord Varys]

The hairy bear,

I've heard the Dalton vs. Cregan option mentioned a few times now, but I don't think that's very likely. First, Dalton Greyjoy is apparently a young man hungry for the glory of battles. I don't think he would be particularly interested in conquering stony shores and stuff like that. The Ironborn have enough of that on the Iron Islands. Second I think that such a move would only come to his mind - or to the mind of of any Ironborn leader - when the circumstances allow it. That is, when the cream of the North is either dead or fighting a war down in the South. But for that to happen Dalton would have to know that 1. one of the claimants would ask the Northern Lords for help, and 2. that they would answer that call with all or a considerable might.

Reaving the Northern shores would be a possibility, of course. But if Dalton is eager for plunder Fair Isle, the shores of the West, the Riverlands, and the Reach are much closer than the North. I cannot imagine Cregan staying back in Winterfell just to deal with some Ironborn invaders. That would not be necessary. If the Ironborn did pull a Balon kind of thing back in the Dance people would have known about that later on. Balon's move during the War of the Five Kings would not have come as such a surprise. What Dagon Greyjoy did during the reign of Aerys I does appear to be good old reaving. I'm not sure he ever was a real threat to the Northern lands on the mainland, but merely a annoyance to the people at the coastlands. That's why Beron Stark teamed up with the Lannisters to put him down.

On the quality of the novel:

Well, it would have been good to rewrite the whole thing. GRRM could have made it a story about Rhaenyra and Alicent by, say, telling biographies and clashes up to the Dances and then their interactions (and actions) during the war itself. The data on the battles and the deeds of some of the other major players could have been added in a few appendix pages chronicling the major battles of the war.

Then the story would not have been this disjointed. Another option would have been to not mention certain characters at all - or to properly introduce them when they first appear in the shortened version (Roddy the Ruin, the Lannister host under the command of Lord Lefford - it's treated as if the reader is supposed to know about it when it's first mentioned).

You really can try to edit and shorter a story so that it works. Or you can do what was done to 'The Princess and the Queen'.

[Veltigar]

The hairy bear,

I've heard the Dalton vs. Cregan option mentioned a few times now, but I don't think that's very likely. First, Dalton Greyjoy is apparently a young man hungry for the glory of battles. I don't think he would be particularly interested in conquering stony shores and stuff like that. The Ironborn have enough of that on the Iron Islands. Second I think that such a move would only come to his mind - or to the mind of of any Ironborn leader - when the circumstances allow it. That is, when the cream of the North is either dead or fighting a war down in the South. But for that to happen Dalton would have to know that 1. one of the claimants would ask the Northern Lords for help, and 2. that they would answer that call with all or a considerable might.

Reaving the Northern shores would be a possibility, of course. But if Dalton is eager for plunder Fair Isle, the shores of the West, the Riverlands, and the Reach are much closer than the North. I cannot imagine Cregan staying back in Winterfell just to deal with some Ironborn invaders. That would not be necessary. If the Ironborn did pull a Balon kind of thing back in the Dance people would have known about that later on. Balon's move during the War of the Five Kings would not have come as such a surprise. What Dagon Greyjoy did during the reign of Aerys I does appear to be good old reaving. I'm not sure he ever was a real threat to the Northern lands on the mainland, but merely a annoyance to the people at the coastlands. That's why Beron Stark teamed up with the Lannisters to put him down.

On the quality of the novel:

Well, it would have been good to rewrite the whole thing. GRRM could have made it a story about Rhaenyra and Alicent by, say, telling biographies and clashes up to the Dances and then their interactions (and actions) during the war itself. The data on the battles and the deeds of some of the other major players could have been added in a few appendix pages chronicling the major battles of the war.

Then the story would not have been this disjointed. Another option would have been to not mention certain characters at all - or to properly introduce them when they first appear in the shortened version (Roddy the Ruin, the Lannister host under the command of Lord Lefford - it's treated as if the reader is supposed to know about it when it's first mentioned).

You really can try to edit and shorter a story so that it works. Or you can do what was done to 'The Princess and the Queen'.

A fun option although an unlikely one that would explain the absence of both Dalton and the Starks is that they actually allied themselves. Aegon II thinks he's safe and then all of a sudden a Greyjoy fleet filled with Northerners appear out of no where.

[alguien]

Yes, we did read the same text. Rhaenyra only had a shot because of her dragons (and Velaryon backing). The Blacks weren't exactly overjoyed at the prospect of fighting of Aegon's horde's. IIRC they even acknowledged that Aegon held all the advantages (legitimacy, money and troops).

When people usually say WMD they mean Nuclear weapons (or those very nasty biological and chemical weapons that kill even more people). It's is ridiculous to compare a dragon to an A-bomb or a specially engineered disease. It's more appropriate to compare dragons with fighter jets.

However, I get that you use WMD in the wider term which includes more conventional weapons (e.g. the bomb in Boston under that definition was also a WMD), in that case you are correct in calling dragons WMD (although I would still avoid it. Filing dragons, conventional explosives and A-bomb's under the same term just lessens the importance of the term WMD).

The text was pretty clear it was due to the Dragons. It was their only advantage in the face of Aegon's others.

Perhaps not a nuclear weapon--though I've never heard of WMD's only being limited to that. I do think dragons are a little more than having an F18, else three dragons wouldn't have been able to instantly kill 4000 men (and severely burn another 10000) in one fell swoop on the Fields of Fire. Contrast to that, Aegon's men during that battle lost like less than 100 men, despite being outnumbered 5 to 1.

The thing is, full grown, Dragons are almost indestructible if you use them right. That's why Aemond was so devastating with Vhagar.

Also, I've never heard of WMD being limited to just a nuclear weapon, but any force that can kill and maim about 15000 men in a matter of minutes is a WMD if I've ever heard of one.

[The hairy bear]

Lord Varys,

If Dalton is a teenager interested in glory, he'd be looking for battles, not booties. It will be memorable a fight against the fearsome Northern wolves than against the watchmen of Fair Island. And if he cares for plunder, the green council can pay his services with gold.

Depending on Dalton's personality, the offer of a seat in the council may have inflated his ego. If he consider the greens his allies, the best place to attack is the North, that's fully in Rhaenyra's camp.

Moreover, perhaps attacking the North just before winter can be lucrative too. You can steal all the privisions stored for winter. And the ironmen must obtain the timber for their ships somewhere.

I could see it happening.

A fun option although an unlikely one that would explain the absence of both Dalton and the Starks is that they actually allied themselves. Aegon II thinks he's safe and then all of a sudden a Greyjoy fleet filled with Northerners appear out of no where.

The Iron Fleet disembarking hordes of Northmen at Oldtown would be real fun! (in fact, Redwyne is hardly mentioned either).

[Lion of the West]

Having finished the tPatQ there are some points that jump up at me.

1. Its obviously a story about the dragon-riders and House Targaryens yet the I still feel it rather odd that more Great Houses do not take part than does.

2. The Lannisters are established, at least to me, to be the intercontinental leap of logic within the backstoy of Westeros so far. How can a House of losers, incompetents and idiots possibly survive as kings for thousands of years and then as Great Lords for centuries in a world like Westeros?

3. Aemond is obviously not deranged or unstable in a mental way. He's young and cocky and that's about it.

4. Blood and Cheese was probably the worst act in the entire story

There are more but these are the ones that springs to my right now.

Oh, and this is the old Gurkhal since my usual account went to hell during the latest problem. :(

[Veltigar]

Also, I've never heard of WMD being limited to just a nuclear weapon, but any force that can kill and maim about 15000 men in a matter of minutes is a WMD if I've ever heard of one.

In a military context it's limited to

Military[edit]

For the general purposes of national defense,^[25] the U.S. Code^[26] defines a weapon of mass destruction as:

• any weapon or device that is intended, or has the capability, to cause death or serious bodily injury to a significant number of people through the release, dissemination, or impact of:
  • toxic or poisonous chemicals or their precursors
  • a disease organism
  • radiation or radioactivity^[27]

For the purposes of the prevention of weapons proliferation,^[28] the U.S. Code defines weapons of mass destruction as "chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, and chemical, biological, and nuclear materials used in the manufacture of such weapons."^[29]

In a civilian context the term is more widely applicable in the USA. But since I'm not from the US, we don't use that term to talk about regular bombs. In my countries the term WMD is only used in the news when talking about nuclear bombs or about the reported chemical weapons of Saddam or the weapons of Assad.

The text was pretty clear it was due to the Dragons. It was their only advantage in the face of Aegon's others. .

That and the Velaryon fleet. It might not have been as big of an asset as the dragons but their naval superiority was pretty helpful, otherwise the Greens wouldn't be so eager to win Dalton Greyjoy to their cause.

Perhaps not a nuclear weapon--though I've never heard of WMD's only being limited to that. I do think dragons are a little more than having an F18, else three dragons wouldn't have been able to instantly kill 4000 men (and severely burn another 10000) in one fell swoop on the Fields of Fire. Contrast to that, Aegon's men during that battle lost like less than 100 men, despite being outnumbered 5 to 1.

I think that victory isn't representative for the usefullness of dragons in general. It was the first time any Westerosi army was confronted with dragons in general and when outdated tactics bump against modern weapons lot's of people end up death.

Think about it. If I drop three fully functional F-18's in Westeros and I assemble an army of 50000 to march against them I'm pretty sure that the F-18's would kill a lot more than 4000 soldiers.

TWOIAF will probably shed some light from it (the Battle of Bitterbridge for instance didn't see a very succesfull use of Balerion so it seems, because of the rains). But there is a hint from the books that provides evidence for my claim namely the war of Old Valyria against the Ghiscari Empire.

The Valyrians had a lot more dragons then the Targs and they had to defeat the Ghiscari empire 5 times before they accepted defeat. If dragons were such an automatic win than the smaller state of Valyria should have walked over the Ghiscari in one swoop because of the dragons.

[Veltigar]

Lord Varys,

If Dalton is a teenager interested in glory, he'd be looking for battles, not booties. It will be memorable a fight against the fearsome Northern wolves than against the watchmen of Fair Island. And if he cares for plunder, the green council can pay his services with gold.

Depending on Dalton's personality, the offer of a seat in the council may have inflated his ego. If he consider the greens his allies, the best place to attack is the North, that's fully in Rhaenyra's camp.

Moreover, perhaps attacking the North just before winter can be lucrative too. You can steal all the privisions stored for winter. And the ironmen must obtain the timber for their ships somewhere.

I could see it happening.

It would be a tad repetitive to have the North fight the Ironborn again. I would like to see a bit more complex relations. I mean the Ironborn and the Northerners can't have been at odds all the time, otherwise how else could Rodrik Stark have won Bear Island in a wresting match?

The Iron Fleet disembarking hordes of Northmen at Oldtown would be real fun! (in fact, Redwyne is hardly mentioned either).

It would be awesome XD although I was thinking about something even more ambitious like sailing past Dorne and attacking the Stormlands. But taking Oldtown would be fun as well!

I also noticed the absence of Redwyne. A possible explanation could be that the Redwyne's weren't a big deal at that time. Perhaps they only rose to prominence after the decline of the House Velaryon (as a way to counter the Ironborn fleet). I hope that is the case, because it would prove that Westeros is less stagnant than we previously assumed.

[alguien]

Ah, I see. I guess I'm using the layman's usage (from Wikipedia):

The term "weapon of mass destruction" usually refers to nuclear, radiological, biological, or chemical weapons. A weapon of mass destruction (WMD or WoMD) is a weapon that can kill and bring significant harm to a large number of humans and/or cause great damage to man-made structures (e.g. buildings), natural structures (e.g. mountains), or the biosphere in general.

Again, I don't think F-18's are a proper analogy. An F-18 in our world is not the threat of a dragon in Westeros. An F-18 in Westeros... well, I mean, why not just say a spaceship or the starship enterprise? Of course the technological superiority will make it pretty much indestructible. More so than dragons. If we're using real world metaphors, the dragon's are very much WMD's of Westeros as opposed to F-18's. Rare, not many countries have them, and the only way to deter another army from using them is if you have one yourself. Valyria's power was built on dragons, not men.

To say nothing of the whole magic/nuclear power analog...

In any event, your example of the battles of Ghiscari vs. Valyria proves my point. They may have tried to rebel five times, but they got completely defeated each time. They all freaked the hell out when they heard baby dragons had returned, because the memories of the utter domination were still so vivid.

In almost every battle in the story, its a dragon that kills another dragon except for one--and that dragon isn't full grown.

[Hazoo]

If Daemon ends up as green man, which you clearly accept as a possibility, than all of these hints are the textual clues pointing toward that possible outcome.

Well said.

If we accept the possibility that Daemon somehow survived and probably made it to the Isle of Faces, then the parallels between Daemon and the Old Gods don't have to be purely coincidental.

Maybe their purpose in the story is to suggest that Daemon's destiny after the duel with Aemond was connected to the Old Gods.

I don't think it's too crazy to speculate that Daemon had interest in the Old Gods or maybe dabbled in some kind of magic. I think we shouldn't trust Gyldayn, he's either ignorant of this matter or deliberately downplaying the role of magic in general. There are some hints, like Aemond's lover Alys Rivers and her prophetic visions or Rhaenyra consulting with mysterious Lady Mysaria, who's probably some kind of seer too. Daemon strikes me personally as Bloodraven's ancestor, both of blood and of spirit, and we know Bloodraven possesses the gifts of the Old Gods and was associated with sorcery years after the dragons and the magic were supposedly gone from the world.

[Madi]

This is the summary of the named dragons we know of, if I'm not missing anything:

• Balerion (Aegon I, Maegor): Black. Died during the Old King's reign.
• Meraxes (Rhaenys): Killed in Dorne.
• Vhagar (Visenya, Aemond): Killed in 130 by Caraxes/Daemon
• Quicksilver (Aenys)
• Dreamfyre (Rhaena, Helaena): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Verminthor (Jaehaerys, Hugh the Hammer): Bronze with tan wings. Killed by Seasmoke and Tessarion.
• Silverwing (Alysanne, Ulf the White)
• Cannibal: Black as coal.
• Sheepstealer (Netty): Mud brown.
• Grey Ghost: Pale grey-white. Killed by Sunfyre.
• Meleys, the Red Queen (Rhaenys): Red, with pink membranes. Killed by Vhagar and Sunfyre.
• Caraxes, the Blood Wyrm (Daemon): Killed by Vhagar.
• Seasmoke (Addam of Hull): Pale grey. Killed by Verminthor.
• Syrax (Rhaenyra): Yellow. Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Sunfyre (Aegon II): Gold with pale pink membranes. Killed from wounds taken from Moondancer.
• Moondancer (Baela): Pale green, with hornd, crest and wingbones of pearl. Killed by Sunfyre.
• Tessarion, the Blue Quen (Daeron): Blue, with dark cobalt wings and with claws, crest and belly bright as beaten cooper. Killed by Verminthor.
• Vermax (Jace): Killed in the Battle of the Gullet.
• Arrax (Luke): Killed by Vhagar.
• Tyraxes (Joffrey): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Stormcloud (Aegon III): Died after rescuing Aegon.
• Morghyl (Jaehaerys): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.
• Shrykos (Jaehaera): Killed in the Storming of the Dragonpit.

We should add to that the green female that Arstan saw at King's Landing, the two hatchlings that were born at Dragonstone and died shortly afterwards, and the one Ran says that we have not heard about.

This is very interesting that she-dragons have their first riders being female.

Meraxes - Rhaenys

Vhagar - Visenya

Silverwing - Alysanne

Dreamfyre - Rhaena

Syrax - Rhaenyra

Meleys - Rhaenys

Moondancer - Baela

Shrykos - Jaehaera

even Tessarion (Blue Queen) first should have been for example Laena's Velaryon (according how Tessarion reacts to Seasmoke while Tumbleton).

And so still living Sheepstealer should be also she-dragon and maybe produce some eggs.

So Drogon is female as well - because Daenerys is his/her first rider. :laugh:

[Veltigar]

Again, I don't think F-18's are a proper analogy. An F-18 in our world is not the threat of a dragon in Westeros. An F-18 in Westeros... well, I mean, why not just say a spaceship or the starship enterprise? Of course the technological superiority will make it pretty much indestructible. More so than dragons. If we're using real world metaphors, the dragon's are very much WMD's of Westeros as opposed to F-18's. Rare, not many countries have them, and the only way to deter another army from using them is if you have one yourself. Valyria's power was built on dragons, not men.

An F-18 is as close as it gets to a dragon. If you don't have plains yourself you are basically screwed when fighting against an F-18 in an open field, the same goes for a dragon.

Sure, they can be taken down with anti-aircraft weapons (just like a dragon can be shot down with Longbows and Scorpions), but even if you have acces to a large ammount of such weapons it's still pretty risky to face such plains.

Another thing F-18's have in common with dragons is that they aren't enough to win a war. If air superiority alone was enough to win a war against a determined foe than the USA would have ended the Taliban years ago and the Targaryens would have easily added Dorne to their realm. And the Valyrians wouldn't have to defeat the Ghiscari 5 times before they submitted.

I don't want to say that dragons aren't usefull (and plains are essential to a conventional modern weapon), because they are. They force the enemy to leave their usual strongholds, they have a big shock and awe effect, they can be used for recon and their is of course their basic fighting ability.

But without soldiers on the ground you can't fully defeat your enemy. If Torrhen hadn't been so dumb to march his whole army to the Trident he could have done the same as the Dornish did. Namely Guerilla warfare. Those that kept on fighting conventionally would have suffered the same faith as King Lorn and King Mern, but if they all went under and fought guerilla style than the Targs would have no choice but to retreat with their puny army.

Because they could conquer land with their dragons, but without boots on the ground they could not hold on to it.

In any event, your example of the battles of Ghiscari vs. Valyria proves my point. They may have tried to rebel five times, but they got completely defeated each time. They all freaked the hell out when they heard baby dragons had returned, because the memories of the utter domination were still so vivid.

In almost every battle in the story, its a dragon that kills another dragon except for one--and that dragon isn't full grown.

They didn't rebel. It were actual wars every time IIRC. It was only after 5 full wars and the destruction of Old Ghis that they broke. If dragons were all powerfull they shouldn't have fought more than one war. The Valyrians just didn't conquer Ghis because they knew they couldn't hold on to it. Be assured that in every new war against the Old Ghiscari empire the Valyrians used more and more soldiers (Valyrian Roads for instance are obviously based on Roman Roads which were initially built to transport the legions).

In the end they defeated the Ghiscari one last time. They used their dragons to burn their city and then they sent their troops to lay claim to their lands and keep them occupied. If they hadn't used soldiers than Ghis would have risen once more and perhaps they would have defeated the Valyrians then.

[-Ghost-]

Bloodraven tells Bran that he's a greenseer because of his blood. This would seem to imply that Bloodraven is also a greenseer because of his blood. And Daemon is Bloodraven's great-grandfather. Bloodraven's also referred to as the last greenseer by leaf/the CotF, according to Bran III ADwD.

Bloodraven and Bran both share something that Daemon doesnt though, First Men blood. But what do greenseers have to do with green men? No one really knows much about the green men, only that the order came about after the truce between the Children and the First Men. In stories theyre described to have antlers and leaves for hair and like said earlier, they may be some kind of hybrid race. Also, Ive never seen it stated that green men are greenseers. Acording to the Children youre born a greenseer. How could Daemon just become either of these? Greenseers are also wargs, if Daemon had such an ability, why fight with Aemond at all? Why not just warg his dragon? I agree that its likely that Daemon ended up on the Isle of Faces and may have learned what he could from the green men.

[Veltigar]

Was I the only one who thought that the Targaryen way of fighting their dragons was ridiculous? Instead of using dragonfire to kill the other rider and then see what happens (normal fight, easy fight or flight) they waste their dragons in those stupid aerial pub brawls.

I made a thread about it where I go into a bit more detail (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101028-tpatq-spoilers-why-targaryens-should-be-fireproof/). Sadly, I made the mistake of calling it "why Targaryens should be fireproof" as a way of mocking their fighting style. Didn't get much response because of that; So I'll just post a link here with an explanation for the retarded title and hope to get more response.

[Fire Eater]

Was I the only one who thought that the Targaryen way of fighting their dragons was ridiculous? Instead of using dragonfire to kill the other rider and then see what happens (normal fight, easy fight or flight) they waste their dragons in those stupid aerial pub brawls.

No you were not, I thought they should have tried to have their dragons roast the riders on the opposing dragons instead of the just the dragons themselves. At the Battle of Rook's Rest, Criston Cole was the only one showing this sentiment in telling his archers to "Aim for the rider" and not the dragon.

[Jaak]

I don't want to say that dragons aren't usefull (and plains are essential to a conventional modern weapon), because they are. They force the enemy to leave their usual strongholds, they have a big shock and awe effect, they can be used for recon and their is of course their basic fighting ability.

Just my point. Any comments on this:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100608-hawking-dragonmail-etc/

?

[Ser Lepus]

No you were not, I thought they should have tried to have their dragons roast the riders on the opposing dragons instead of the just the dragons themselves. At the Battle of Rook's Rest, Criston Cole was the only one showing this sentiment in telling his archers to aim for the rider and not the dragon.

They could also try to throw javelins at the other rider, instead of jumping on him like Daemon did. A sturdy, heavy, hard soliferrum would pierce any kind of armor if thrown from above.