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chrisdaw

[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

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I read this the last couple days. Browsed most of the thread, and was wondering whether anyone else noticed the family names reflected in the Wo5k golden company. It might point to alliances in the future books.

There are Strongs and Coles both in on the Green side and the GC. Willis Fell is on the king's guard, and House Fell (Stormlands) is one of Aegon's likeliest allies. Also on the Green side is House Hightower which many have speculated as being another Aegon/GC ally.

The Peakes could turn out to be allies of Aegon. Ulwin Peake was a member of the greens and Gormon Peake supported Daemon Blackfyre. Laswell,Torman, and Pykewood Peake are exiles serving in the Golden Company.

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I read this the last couple days. Browsed most of the thread, and was wondering whether anyone else noticed the family names reflected in the Wo5k golden company. It might point to alliances in the future books.

There are Strongs and Coles both in on the Green side and the GC. Willis Fell is on the king's guard, and House Fell (Stormlands) is one of Aegon's likeliest allies. Also on the Green side is House Hightower which many have speculated as being another Aegon/GC ally.

I think tPatQ all but confirms that House Rowan will side with Faegon. They were amongst Rhaenyra's staunchest supporters, they seem to be the Reach equivalent to the Darry's.

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Mrs. Grumpy,

Lyonel Tyrell. I don't believe we have his mother's name.

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Interesting tidbit the thing about the power struggle during the Regency of Aegon III. All of his known regents beside Manfryd Mooton do seem to be Blacks (and he may switch back to the Black side after Rhaenyra's death), so my guess is that this may turn out to be a power struggle among the Black party.



Lord Lyonel Tyrell would be the father of Leo 'Longthorn' Tyrell? He seems to be not the youngest chap in THK - if he is past fifty in there, then his father could have been the young boy in swaddling clothes during the Dance...



On the GRRMarillion:



We now know that there are 80,000 words on the Dance, about 80,000 words on the Regency of Aegon III, pretty much about the reign of Viserys I, a long piece on Aegon's Conquest, 'The Sons of the Dragons' (perhaps even another piece detailing the Faith Militant Uprising), and then certainly plenty of stuff on Jaehaerys/Alysanne and their children.



I really have to push the point again that - knowing GRRM - he already has enough stuff to make more than a decent first volume of the GRRMarillion (or lets just call this thing 'The History of Westeros' - it does seem to be much more like Christopher Tolkien's 'History of Middle-earth' than 'The Silmarillion'). We don't need all of this stuff at once, and I very much doubt that this thing will be one volume if and when it finally comes out (most certainly not if there are long accounts on the second half of the Targaryen era as well, especially not if some of the GRRMarillion stuff would also touch upon very recent history in detail)



If I'm not mistaken then GRRM has not given away main series spoilers in the background material he has written for 'The World of Ice and Fire'. If that's the case then I really don't see any reason to postpone the publication of most of this stuff. Sure, I don't know whether one would have to work on it to get it ready for publication. But that could be done. And it would not be a rival publication to the Worldbook if it came out, say, in late 2015 or so.



A new take on Blood and Cheese:



Rethinking this whole thing I came up with a new take on it. Let's say Archmaester Gyldayn (or one of his sources) really found Daemon's letter (or parts of it) in the archives of Dragonstone depicting the 'an eye for an eye, a son for a son' line. Let's also keep in mind that Queen Dowager Alicent most likely is the source for the whole Blood and Cheese episode, including the 'an eye for an eye, a son for a son' line in there. And keep in mind that Gyldayn also states that some people believe that Blood and Cheese original target may have been Aegon II.



This way it could be that Daemon was really trying to kill one of Alicent's sons (either Aegon or Aemond). Especially if we keep in mind that he and Rhaenyra obviously were very aware of the fact that the actual leaders of the Green party where Ser Otto Hightower and Alicent, not so much Aegon II. It was Aemond who killed Lucerys, so he should have been target number one. Taking out either Aegon or Aemond would have cost the Greens a dragonrider (and if Aemond had been the one I guess Vhagar would have been no threat whatsoever throughout the whole war) and, if Aegon had been killed, caused a succession crisis for the Greens as well (should Aemond inherit the Iron Throne or young Prince Jaehaerys?).



What do you think: Is it possible that Daemon's agents made a mistake and told Blood and Cheese to take out one of Aegon's sons when in fact they were supposed to take out one of Alicent's sons? Or is it possible that Blood and Cheese reinterpreted their orders that way after they realized that they could not get to Aegon, Aemond, or Daeron?



Daemon was in Harrenhal. He could either reach out to his agents in KL via raven or rider. If Grand Maester Orwyle was his man on the Green Council then he could have sent a raven to him, telling him to contact his go-between, the pale stranger. I'm not sure whoever the pale stranger was had access to his own rookery.


If we assume that Orwyle was involved in this whole thing, and if Daemon came to think that he botched it, then this may also explain why he went to the black cells when the Blacks took the capital.


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Presumably after ADoS because George may want to reveal some important history that would be a spoiler for the series. :)

GRRM-arillion is the very best hope people can have for anything like a novella about Robert's Rebellion, or Rhaegar and Lyanna, or the Tower of Joy.

Eh, it seems to me that:

"And there's more than you can imagine. Not only the 80,000 word version of the Dance of the Dragons, but another chunk almost as long about the power struggles during the regency that followed... and a long piece preceding P&Q, about all that went before.."

suggests enough material for a whole book. So, why not publish that, already written, part between TWoW and ADoS? And then publish either an extended edition or a second book with fresh content (if there is enough of it) once the series is complete?

Re: people in the Golden Company, didn't Tyrion think that some/majority of the sellswords bearing names of extinguished Houses were not actual descendants, but fakes, who claimed names that nobody would bother to gainsay to give themselves more stature? After all, if you are a Westerosi living in Essos, where all free people seem to have last names, it makes sense to either invent or appropriate one.

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Maia,



I can see the Peakes in the Golden Company may be genuine (or at least one or two of them). They may have left Westeros only after Gormy Peake was executed at the end of the second Blackfyre Rebellion, which is not exactly as far back in the past of the main series as are the events that led to the exile/end of the Houses Strong and Cole. Myles Toyne may also have been a genuine Toyne, despite the fact that he did not have the beautiful looks of the Toyne that caused the downfall of the house during the reign of Aegon the Unworthy.


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Lord Varys,

Oh, Myles Toyne was genuine, I am sure. After all, Simon Toyne "The Smiling Knight" was around just 18 or so years previously. Maybe Peakes too, since House Peake still exists. But people who claim to be Strongs and Coles? I doubt that very much.

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A new take on Blood and Cheese:

Rethinking this whole thing I came up with a new take on it. Let's say Archmaester Gyldayn (or one of his sources) really found Daemon's letter (or parts of it) in the archives of Dragonstone depicting the 'an eye for an eye, a son for a son' line. Let's also keep in mind that Queen Dowager Alicent most likely is the source for the whole Blood and Cheese episode, including the 'an eye for an eye, a son for a son' line in there. And keep in mind that Gyldayn also states that some people believe that Blood and Cheese original target may have been Aegon II.

This way it could be that Daemon was really trying to kill one of Alicent's sons (either Aegon or Aemond). Especially if we keep in mind that he and Rhaenyra obviously were very aware of the fact that the actual leaders of the Green party where Ser Otto Hightower and Alicent, not so much Aegon II. It was Aemond who killed Lucerys, so he should have been target number one. Taking out either Aegon or Aemond would have cost the Greens a dragonrider (and if Aemond had been the one I guess Vhagar would have been no threat whatsoever throughout the whole war) and, if Aegon had been killed, caused a succession crisis for the Greens as well (should Aemond inherit the Iron Throne or young Prince Jaehaerys?).

What do you think: Is it possible that Daemon's agents made a mistake and told Blood and Cheese to take out one of Aegon's sons when in fact they were supposed to take out one of Alicent's sons? Or is it possible that Blood and Cheese reinterpreted their orders that way after they realized that they could not get to Aegon, Aemond, or Daeron?

Daemon was in Harrenhal. He could either reach out to his agents in KL via raven or rider. If Grand Maester Orwyle was his man on the Green Council then he could have sent a raven to him, telling him to contact his go-between, the pale stranger. I'm not sure whoever the pale stranger was had access to his own rookery.

If we assume that Orwyle was involved in this whole thing, and if Daemon came to think that he botched it, then this may also explain why he went to the black cells when the Blacks took the capital.

Maybe Blood & Cheese were told to assassinate the highest ranking Green male they could?

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I read this the last couple days. Browsed most of the thread, and was wondering whether anyone else noticed the family names reflected in the Wo5k golden company. It might point to alliances in the future books.

There are Strongs and Coles both in on the Green side and the GC. Willis Fell is on the king's guard, and House Fell (Stormlands) is one of Aegon's likeliest allies. Also on the Green side is House Hightower which many have speculated as being another Aegon/GC ally.

Absolutely. And notice that Dany's riding the black dragon. Think Aegon might be riding Rhaegal at some point?

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The whole Blood and Cheese thing seems rather logical, the longer I think about it.



Killing Aegon would have been too difficult. He was the King, and thus had Kingsguards all around him the entire time. There was no way Blood and Cheese could have gotten to him



In addition to that, killing Aegon would have brought the Greens in a position where the decision they would have had to make could have had a dangerous outcome for the Blacks. The Greens would have had to choose between 19 year old Aemond and 6 year old Jaehaerys. Either Aemond would have gained a lot of power as Jaehaerys' most likely regent, or he would have gained even more power by becomming King.



Killing Aemond would have been difficult, for he was almost constantly on the move with Vhagar by his side.



Killing little Jaehaerys was the perfect set, although incredibly cruel. It would keep Aemond away from gaining too much power, while letting Aegon, Alicent and Helaena suffer. And possibly Otto too, since it was his great-grandchild. Let's face it, Aemond doesn't seem like the type who would get too upset about the death of a relative. He even stayed incredibly calm when Aegon was severly injured. Although most likely engaged, Daemon would (1) either not know about that yet, or (2) know that Aemond wouldn't care about that girl. We don't know when Alys Rivers came into view, but since Aemond hadn't raided the Riverlands yet, I doubt he had met her already. There was no personal way to get back at Aemond for killing Lucerys. Killing Jaehaerys was the closest Daemon could get without practically handing Aemond the crown. Plus, he might have hoped that the death of his heir would make Aegon so angry that he'd strip Aemond of his power or something like that.


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Interesting tidbit the thing about the power struggle during the Regency of Aegon III. All of his known regents beside Manfryd Mooton do seem to be Blacks (and he may switch back to the Black side after Rhaenyra's death), so my guess is that this may turn out to be a power struggle among the Black party.

Lord Lyonel Tyrell would be the father of Leo 'Longthorn' Tyrell? He seems to be not the youngest chap in THK - if he is past fifty in there, then his father could have been the young boy in swaddling clothes during the Dance...

On the GRRMarillion:

We now know that there are 80,000 words on the Dance, about 80,000 words on the Regency of Aegon III, pretty much about the reign of Viserys I, a long piece on Aegon's Conquest, 'The Sons of the Dragons' (perhaps even another piece detailing the Faith Militant Uprising), and then certainly plenty of stuff on Jaehaerys/Alysanne and their children.

I really have to push the point again that - knowing GRRM - he already has enough stuff to make more than a decent first volume of the GRRMarillion (or lets just call this thing 'The History of Westeros' - it does seem to be much more like Christopher Tolkien's 'History of Middle-earth' than 'The Silmarillion'). We don't need all of this stuff at once, and I very much doubt that this thing will be one volume if and when it finally comes out (most certainly not if there are long accounts on the second half of the Targaryen era as well, especially not if some of the GRRMarillion stuff would also touch upon very recent history in detail)

If I'm not mistaken then GRRM has not given away main series spoilers in the background material he has written for 'The World of Ice and Fire'. If that's the case then I really don't see any reason to postpone the publication of most of this stuff. Sure, I don't know whether one would have to work on it to get it ready for publication. But that could be done. And it would not be a rival publication to the Worldbook if it came out, say, in late 2015 or so.

A new take on Blood and Cheese:

Rethinking this whole thing I came up with a new take on it. Let's say Archmaester Gyldayn (or one of his sources) really found Daemon's letter (or parts of it) in the archives of Dragonstone depicting the 'an eye for an eye, a son for a son' line. Let's also keep in mind that Queen Dowager Alicent most likely is the source for the whole Blood and Cheese episode, including the 'an eye for an eye, a son for a son' line in there. And keep in mind that Gyldayn also states that some people believe that Blood and Cheese original target may have been Aegon II.

This way it could be that Daemon was really trying to kill one of Alicent's sons (either Aegon or Aemond). Especially if we keep in mind that he and Rhaenyra obviously were very aware of the fact that the actual leaders of the Green party where Ser Otto Hightower and Alicent, not so much Aegon II. It was Aemond who killed Lucerys, so he should have been target number one. Taking out either Aegon or Aemond would have cost the Greens a dragonrider (and if Aemond had been the one I guess Vhagar would have been no threat whatsoever throughout the whole war) and, if Aegon had been killed, caused a succession crisis for the Greens as well (should Aemond inherit the Iron Throne or young Prince Jaehaerys?).

What do you think: Is it possible that Daemon's agents made a mistake and told Blood and Cheese to take out one of Aegon's sons when in fact they were supposed to take out one of Alicent's sons? Or is it possible that Blood and Cheese reinterpreted their orders that way after they realized that they could not get to Aegon, Aemond, or Daeron?

Daemon was in Harrenhal. He could either reach out to his agents in KL via raven or rider. If Grand Maester Orwyle was his man on the Green Council then he could have sent a raven to him, telling him to contact his go-between, the pale stranger. I'm not sure whoever the pale stranger was had access to his own rookery.

If we assume that Orwyle was involved in this whole thing, and if Daemon came to think that he botched it, then this may also explain why he went to the black cells when the Blacks took the capital.

I am well prepare to admit that I am wrong but I think that there is more of Daemon's personal cruelty and pride in Blood and Cheese rather than political consideration in the choice of their targets. I don't for a moment believe that Blood and Cheese just managed to somehow kill the wrong prince and that Daemon is somehow not responsible for the murder and the torments inflicted upon Aegon's queen.

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Rhaenys,



well, Aegon could have been a legitimate target. Kingsguard can be killed as well, and Daemon could have had a poisoning in mind rather than a bloody attack. Having the Kingsguard with him all the time is also probably not true in the literal sense. Aegon II had at least one paramour, and I'm not so sure that he went to her with his Kingsguard in tow.



I'm also not sure why it would have been problematic for the Blacks to have Aemond in charge. He is the one who is completely stupid, not Aegon II. Aegon is unexperienced and hot-headed, but he does not seem to be as overconfident and stupid as Aemond. The man has the largest Targaryen dragon but fails to make use of that fact after Harrenhal. Had he joined any of the Black loyalists - Hightower, Baratheon, or Lannister - the Green cause would have profited greatly. With him in charge at that early stage of the war we would have probably seen the Green cause die with Aemond/Vhagar during 'a surprise all-out dragon attack' on Dragonstone.



We don't get anything on Aemond's whereabouts and habits during the Blood and Cheese thing. Was he still at Storm's End? Not impossible, if Aemond did actually marry one of Lord Borros's daughters (and it does seem to be that way since one of his daughters mentioned in the MUSH appendix eventually becomes a Silent Sister). If he was back at KL his apartment may have been in Maegor's Holdfast, too. Alicent only moves out of the apartment of the queen to give it to Helaena (with Aegon moving into Viserys's apartment). But Alicent's younger sons would have lived in Maegor's Holdfast, too. They are the sons of the previous and the brothers of the present king. They are part of his family.



To assume that Daemon always aimed at Aegon's sons:



For that to happen Daemon would have to know everything that happened in KL, and I doubt that he knew as much.



1. To make the children the target he would have to know that Alicent moved out of Maegor's into the Tower of the Hand. I'm sure that his agents eventually realized that this provided an opportunity but I very much doubt that Daemon knew all about that when he gave the order.



2. Daemon would have to know about Helaena's habit to visit her mother with her children every evening. Even if we assume that she had done this while Viserys was still alive, it only became a habit that could be used by the assassins after Alicent had moved out of Maegor's.



3. The critical issue driving Helaena mad was the decision to let her pick the son who would be killed. I very much doubt that Daemon gave specific orders how to execute the killing.



Killing one of the sons of Aegon II did not really help the Black cause very much. Aegon II had still a male child of his body. The political loss was minimal. It did also not harm the dragonrider capabilities of the Greens. Helaena could have run berserk on Dreamfyre rather than growing mad. Daemon could not really foresee her reaction.



We also know that Alicent and Rhaenyra were mortal enemies. It was more or less their strife that caused the whole Dance. Wouldn't it then make much more sense for Daemon to order to kill her as well should his agents successfully catch her? And since they had access to the Tower of the Hand as well they could also have taken out Ser Otto, apparently an old adversary of Daemon's. If Blood and Cheese had killed Otto, Alicent, Helaena, and all her children - i.e. all the people they had access to - the brains and the future of the Blacks would have been gone. Aegon II and Aemond would have raged and done something very rash. Even the one guy with half a brain among Aegon's council, Ser Criston Cole, would have realized that they would have to do something big to show that they were still in the game.


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Just an interesting time period for Westeros:



1. Dorne not part of the realm and still basically an isolated nation.



2. The Lord of Pyke is 16 and by all accounts a bloodthirsty killer. Not surprising he turned down Master of Ships, Admiral of the Royal Fleet, and a seat on the small council. Its surprising he didn’t ask for more...like the return of the Riverlands and Harrenhal.



3. The Vale is ruled by a female Arryn, unwed and likely very young still.



4. The head of house Tyrell is a babe whose mother is ruling as regent.



5. The Hightowers are feared and are acting like the juggernaut we all thought they could be, instead of the cautious business family we have been led to believe they are. Even Rhaenrya and her council are weary of their power and figure the Tyrells will bend to their will.



6. The Tully’s have a weak hold on the Riverrlands, and pretty much rule in name only.



7. The Velaryons, Borrells, and Sunderlands were likely all powerhouses who are now weak in present day.



8. The lord of Storm’s End is an illiterate. How does this happen to the nobility?



9. The Blacks visit White Harbor before and in addition to Winterfell...meaning they thought the Manderly’s were a clear number 2.



Just a lot of historical tidbits, as you can really see the realm starting to develop.


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After reading this tale, I must say I'm surprised/disappointed more wasn't mentioned about Ser Cole in the story a man dubbed the Kingmaker and the way Jaime talks of him being a lil bit hero and villain should have been more noteworthy than he was his biggest contribution was silting an old man's throat. I'm surprised history remembers him at all compared to the real Kingmaker (Richard Neville) this guy's deeds are less than remarkable.



Ran I know you mentioned we'd get more detail on the twins battle in the Worldbook but I was wondering if you could shed some light on which part of the war was it they died together?


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The whole Blood and Cheese thing seems rather logical, the longer I think about it.

Killing Aegon would have been too difficult. He was the King, and thus had Kingsguards all around him the entire time. There was no way Blood and Cheese could have gotten to him

In addition to that, killing Aegon would have brought the Greens in a position where the decision they would have had to make could have had a dangerous outcome for the Blacks. The Greens would have had to choose between 19 year old Aemond and 6 year old Jaehaerys. Either Aemond would have gained a lot of power as Jaehaerys' most likely regent, or he would have gained even more power by becomming King.

Killing Aemond would have been difficult, for he was almost constantly on the move with Vhagar by his side.

Killing little Jaehaerys was the perfect set, although incredibly cruel. It would keep Aemond away from gaining too much power, while letting Aegon, Alicent and Helaena suffer. And possibly Otto too, since it was his great-grandchild. Let's face it, Aemond doesn't seem like the type who would get too upset about the death of a relative. He even stayed incredibly calm when Aegon was severly injured. Although most likely engaged, Daemon would (1) either not know about that yet, or (2) know that Aemond wouldn't care about that girl. We don't know when Alys Rivers came into view, but since Aemond hadn't raided the Riverlands yet, I doubt he had met her already. There was no personal way to get back at Aemond for killing Lucerys. Killing Jaehaerys was the closest Daemon could get without practically handing Aemond the crown. Plus, he might have hoped that the death of his heir would make Aegon so angry that he'd strip Aemond of his power or something like that.

Solid points but did we somehow go past the idea that capturing the princes was better than killing them? They could've even had vengeance and a hostage... kill one keep the other.

Perhaps there's a reason this wouldn't work, but I'm not seeing it. If these two could get through the secret passages and out again, surely they could carry a six and/or two year old. It wouldn't be hard to get them out of the city, I think.

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Lord Varys,

Oh, Myles Toyne was genuine, I am sure. After all, Simon Toyne "The Smiling Knight" was around just 18 or so years previously. Maybe Peakes too, since House Peake still exists. But people who claim to be Strongs and Coles? I doubt that very much.

I thought "The Smiling Knight" and Simon Toyne were two different members of the outlaw band.

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I thought "The Smiling Knight" and Simon Toyne were two different members of the outlaw band.

You're correct, they were two different people. Toyne was the leader, the Smiling Knight was "his generation's Gregor Clegane. Half as big but twice as mad".

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