[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Veltigar]

No you were not, I thought they should have tried to have their dragons roast the riders on the opposing dragons instead of the just the dragons themselves. At the Battle of Rook's Rest, Criston Cole was the only one showing this sentiment in telling his archers to "Aim for the rider" and not the dragon.

Hah, we finally agree on something :cheers: That must mean that we are making sense :cool4:

The sailors from the Triarchy were also told to shoot the riders IIRC.

[Veltigar]

They could also try to throw javelins at the other rider, instead of jumping on him like Daemon did. A sturdy, heavy, hard soliferrum would pierce any kind of armor if thrown from above.

Wouldn't it be better to use dragon fire? It's a lot easier to aim and not affected by winds or anything.

Or like a bow that can be fired from horseback (perhaps with poisoned arrowheads). Like the bow used in Yabusame

[Fire Eater]

Hah, we finally agree on something :cheers: That must mean that we are making sense :cool4:

The sailors from the Triarchy were also told to shoot the riders IIRC.

Not to mention Daemon used his dragon to get close enough to jump onto the opposing dragon, and slay the rider. He knew Aemond wasn't expecting that. Although he could have just used his chance to fly to roast Aemond instead of sacrificing his dragon. That would have left Vhagar, the largest and most powerful dragon alive free for a new rider. His son, Aegon, could have had Vhagar to replace the dragon he lost, Stormcloud. Or more likely another member of the blacks.

Hard Hugh would have also been less likely to crown himself since he knows there is a larger dragon to match his.

[Good King Daemon]

No you were not, I thought they should have tried to have their dragons roast the riders on the opposing dragons instead of the just the dragons themselves. At the Battle of Rook's Rest, Criston Cole was the only one showing this sentiment in telling his archers to "Aim for the rider" and not the dragon.

During the actual fighting of dragons versus dragons how much control do the riders have? If its not a lot that would explain the pretty flawed tactics somewhat. From what we know that when threatened its a dragons first instinct to attack so there probably focusing more on the other giant lizard who seems pretty impervious to fire then killing the tiny rider on its back.

[Fire Eater]

During the actual fighting of dragons versus dragons how much control do the riders have? If its not a lot that would explain the pretty flawed tactics somewhat. From what we know that when threatened its a dragons first instinct to attack so there probably focusing more on the other giant lizard who seems pretty impervious to fire then killing the tiny rider on its back.

I have considered that, but I guess we don't know how much control a rider has with a bonded dragon as you said. In that case, it would have helped to have the riders bring a bow and arrow, crossbow or long-ranged weapon, or follow Daemon's example. They could have attacked from above with the riders always being on top, and they would have been scorched by the dragonflames.

[alguien]

An F-18 is as close as it gets to a dragon. If you don't have plains yourself you are basically screwed when fighting against an F-18 in an open field, the same goes for a dragon.

Sure, they can be taken down with anti-aircraft weapons (just like a dragon can be shot down with Longbows and Scorpions), but even if you have acces to a large ammount of such weapons it's still pretty risky to face such plains.

What do you mean "as close as it gets"? Real world analog? Because that's not true. Dragons in Westeros are way more feared than F-18's in our world.

If you're talking about destructive power, again, this kinda fails, because F-18's can't hover, can't defend themselves, can't go to ground, lots of things. I'm trying to think of any real world tech that is a good comparison, but can't. Scifi maybe. Search and destroy Terminator machines and such.

Another thing F-18's have in common with dragons is that they aren't enough to win a war. If air superiority alone was enough to win a war against a determined foe than the USA would have ended the Taliban years ago and the Targaryens would have easily added Dorne to their realm. And the Valyrians wouldn't have to defeat the Ghiscari 5 times before they submitted.

But dragons clearly are enough of an advantage to win a war, as has been shown multiple times in ASOIAF. They've over come advantages of being outnumbers at least ten to one. That is the entire point of Daenyrs's plotline.

We even have a going market value for how much a dragon is worth--and he's a baby at that.

They're shown to be worth more than 15,000 of the greatest, most disciplined infantry in existence. An entire citystate's livelihood and military is not worth as much to them as one dragon. There is no country on this earth that would give its entire army away for one F-18.

I don't want to say that dragons aren't usefull (and plains are essential to a conventional modern weapon), because they are. They force the enemy to leave their usual strongholds, they have a big shock and awe effect, they can be used for recon and their is of course their basic fighting ability.

But without soldiers on the ground you can't fully defeat your enemy. If Torrhen hadn't been so dumb to march his whole army to the Trident he could have done the same as the Dornish did. Namely Guerilla warfare. Those that kept on fighting conventionally would have suffered the same faith as King Lorn and King Mern, but if they all went under and fought guerilla style than the Targs would have no choice but to retreat with their puny army.

Because they could conquer land with their dragons, but without boots on the ground they could not hold on to it.

If you're saying Dragon's alone aren't enough to win a war--then sure, I agree with you and don't believe I was claiming otherwise. Just as no WMD alone is enough to win a war either. You need soldiers on the ground.

Guerilla warfare only worked so well for the Dornish, and its hardly a sustainable strategy, even less so for the other kingdoms you mentioned--except for the North. That would have been really interesting to see Northern guerrilla fighting against dragons. They might have even better luck than Dorne.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I was wondering, since everyone is so excited about Ran hinting about Daemon's survival... That tPatQ does not do him justice.

But how can we ever learn what Daemon did after his "death", if we'll only learn from Westerosi history through maesters account? The maesters are convinced he died.

[Ser Lepus]

Wouldn't it be better to use dragon fire? It's a lot easier to aim and not affected by winds or anything.

Or like a bow that can be fired from horseback (perhaps with poisoned arrowheads). Like the bow used in Yabusame

Yup, dragonfire would be better. I was thinking of what Daemon did, and of the fact that he had planned to do that from the beginning.

[Slayer of Lies]

What do you mean "as close as it gets"? Real world analog? Because that's not true. Dragons in Westeros are way more feared than F-18's in our world.

If you're talking about destructive power, again, this kinda fails, because F-18's can't hover, can't defend themselves, can't go to ground, lots of things. I'm trying to think of any real world tech that is a good comparison, but can't. Scifi maybe. Search and destroy Terminator machines and such.

This conversation is cracking me up.

But I'll bite (once), an F-18 can be very scary, depending on which country you live in. Planes flying overhead is not always a sign of "casual patriotism" for its observers.

In any event, the top speed of an F-18 is ~1200MPH, where a VTOL of some kind or a Westland Lynx might be closer to "dragon power." But don't quote me on that.

In any case, in a world without dragons or tech, dragons are scary, and they can set stuff on fire, knock things over, and dismember people.

It stands to reason one could take out an entire field of wights, given enough time and an infinite amount of "fuel."

[Veltigar]

I have considered that, but I guess we don't know how much control a rider has with a bonded dragon as you said. In that case, it would have helped to have the riders bring a bow and arrow, crossbow or long-ranged weapon, or follow Daemon's example. They could have attacked from above with the riders always being on top, and they would have been scorched by the dragonflames.

am I the only one who finds it odd that the word Dracarys isn't used at all. If Dany can train her dragons to react to a voice command than surely the Targs should have been able to do so (although I don't recall verbal commands being ushered, it was all whip action it seemed).

[alguien]

It stands to reason one could take out an entire field of wights, given enough time and an infinite amount of "fuel."

I've kinda wondered how on earth a battle against the wights and others will be exciting if Dany's dragons enter the mix. Seems like Drogon, with a little more size, could wipe them out.

Or maybe, because he's only mid-size, that's where the drama will come in.

[Slayer of Lies]

I've kinda wondered how on earth a battle against the wights and others will be exciting if Dany's dragons enter the mix. Seems like Drogon, with a little more size, could wipe them out.

Or maybe, because he's only mid-size, that's where the drama will come in.

Yeah, I get that too... If you buy into my crackpot theory from 3-4 pages back that Sheepstealer may still be alive, and may even be the "great stone beast," perhaps there's an angle... Either way, I think introducing an "evil flying beast," however done, would make for both a "pleasant surprise" to the reader, as well as an exciting battle where Dany's dragons are seemingly out-classed and overpowered, such that their victory is more "rewarding" to the reader.

[Veltigar]

What do you mean "as close as it gets"? Real world analog? Because that's not true. Dragons in Westeros are way more feared than F-18's in our world.

What does the ammount of fear have to do with it (+ let's face it when an F-18 comes falling out of the sky bent on killing you, you would crap your pants, as would I).

It's a matter of impact. Dragons = F-18. The way dragons and jets are used + a lot of their respective limitations and advantages are shared. More so than a dragon's way of use and advantages/limitations can be compared to an A-bomb, sarin, a boatload of TNT or a genetically engineered disease.

If you're talking about destructive power, again, this kinda fails, because F-18's can't hover, can't defend themselves, can't go to ground, lots of things. I'm trying to think of any real world tech that is a good comparison, but can't. Scifi maybe. Search and destroy Terminator machines and such.

Sure because what's useful about a dragon is the fact that it can hover (btw can they hover? do we actually see a dragon hovering like a helicopter).

And how do you mean they can't defend themselves :bang: It's a freaking fighter jet!

But dragons clearly are enough of an advantage to win a war, as has been shown multiple times in ASOIAF. They've over come advantages of being outnumbers at least ten to one. That is the entire point of Daenyrs's plotline.

1) Aegon I doesn't count. He caught Westeros with it's pants down. Not once,not twice, not thrice but 4 times (Harren thinking he was safe in his castle, Reach and Westerlands assembeling one big host, the Arryn thinking the Eyrie was save and finally Torrhen being dumb enough to take his host into the Riverlands).

The first time he fought against an adversery who know what dragons were capable off and hadn't made the royal screw-up of Torrhen were the Dornish. And they beat him fair and square.

2) Dany's storyline proves that dragons are an asset. Not that they are enough. Dany didn't win in Astapor because of Drogon, she won because she had the control over the Unsullied. In fact tPatQ has shown us yet again how stupid the slavers actually are since they couldn't even kill one puny dragon (The KL mob alone took care of 5).

She didn't win in Yunkai because of her dragons either. She won because of good old fashioned bribery and treachory. And in Meereen her army won the day because a few brave men waded through a couple of feet of shit to free some fighting slaves and take it from the inside.

Nowhere were dragons essential to the actual fighting.

We even have a going market value for how much a dragon is worth--and he's a baby at that.

They're shown to be worth more than 15,000 of the greatest, most disciplined infantry in existence. An entire citystate's livelihood and military is not worth as much to them as one dragon. There is no country on this earth that would give its entire army away for one F-18.

If we would live in a world were that F-18 was the only plain in the world and there wasn't anything truely developed at shooting them from the sky governments would be clamoring over themselves to get one.

If you're saying Dragon's alone aren't enough to win a war--then sure, I agree with you and don't believe I was claiming otherwise. Just as no WMD alone is enough to win a war either. You need soldiers on the ground.

I'm glad you see reason

Guerilla warfare only worked so well for the Dornish, and its hardly a sustainable strategy, even less so for the other kingdoms you mentioned--except for the North. That would have been really interesting to see Northern guerrilla fighting against dragons. They might have even better luck than Dorne.

Guerrilla warfare can be fought anywhere. The BwB are even fighting a guerrilla warfare campaign in the Riverlands, which seems the worst place to do traditional guerrilla.

But really Guerrilla warfare can be fought anywhere, even in cities (e.g. the Tupamaros in Uruguay were famous city guerrillero).

If they hadn't been shocked by the first appearance of dragons and continued fighting they would have beaten the shit out of Aegon (at a cost of live and property of course). Don't get me wrong I'm pro 7 Kingdoms (not a big fan of independent Kingdoms) but Aegon's opponents suffered from a massive amount of "being-to-stupid-to-live. He was lucky to conquer 6 Kingdoms.

[Ser Lepus]

Guerrilla warfare can be fought anywhere. The BwB are even fighting a guerrilla warfare campaign in the Riverlands, which seems the worst place to do traditional guerrilla.

But really Guerrilla warfare can be fought anywhere, even in cities (e.g. the Tupamaros in Uruguay were famous city guerrillero).

If they hadn't been shocked by the first appearance of dragons and continued fighting they would have beaten the shit out of Aegon (at a cost of live and property of course). Don't get me wrong I'm pro 7 Kingdoms (not a big fan of independent Kingdoms) but Aegon's opponents suffered from a massive amount of "being-to-stupid-to-live. He was lucky to conquer 6 Kingdoms.

I think the problem is that 99% of the people in Westeros don't care who's the king. Peasants just want to be left alone, knights want to be fed and paid, lords want to live in their castles and rule their lands.

If a lord leaves his castle with all his knights, he can't protect and rule his lands, and he can't use his land's resources to pay his retainers. Sure, he can come now and then to demand tribute from the peasants and leave again, but that tactic would have two problems:

1.-At Westeros' socio-economic development level most taxes weren't coin, but foodstuffs, cloth and services. What is the lord going to do, take with him a caravan of wagons with all the corn, beef, pork, cheese, wool...etc?

2.-Peasants will eventually get tired of supporting a guy who doesn't protect or does anything else for them, and knights will get tired of living on the road. Sooner or later their neighboring lord will bend the knee to Aegon, go back to his castle and take the chance to conquer your castle and lands too, and your peasants and knights will most likely embrace him.

The Dornish were in full "Victory or Death" mode. They were even leaving their elders behind to avoid wasting resources; I think their nationalistic pride, their antipathy towards other Westerosi and their hate for the Dragonlords (who expelled the Rhoynar from their own lands) motivated both nobility and commons enough to pull a total war against the Targayren and accept every sacrifice they had to take.

[alguien]

What does the ammount of fear have to do with it (+ let's face it when an F-18 comes falling out of the sky bent on killing you, you would crap your pants, as would I).

You're comparing F-18's to dragons and I'm demonstrating you that dragons are quite a bit more feared, prized, and special than an F18 in our world. Terrorists aren't trying to obtain F18 planes. Iran isn't trying to build an F18.

And by fear, I don't mean in the moment. I meant as an empire is feared in the long term.

It's a matter of impact. Dragons = F-18. The way dragons and jets are used + a lot of their respective limitations and advantages are shared. More so than a dragon's way of use and advantages/limitations can be compared to an A-bomb, sarin, a boatload of TNT or a genetically engineered disease.

If you meant the comparison as impact, I guess you have a point, but I think in terms of realpolitick and the story as a whole, a comparison I find more interesting, as in cause for nations to being toppled, than WMD is really a better comparison.

That's probably where our whole difference of opinion stems from, really.

And since an F-18 basically deploys WMD's (in layman's terms) than its a moot comparison anyway.

And how do you mean they can't defend themselves :bang: It's a freaking fighter jet!

Yet, without a knowledgeable pilot, a useless hunk of metal. Not so with a dragon.

1) Aegon I doesn't count. He caught Westeros with it's pants down. Not once,not twice, not thrice but 4 times (Harren thinking he was safe in his castle, Reach and Westerlands assembeling one big host, the Arryn thinking the Eyrie was save and finally Torrhen being dumb enough to take his host into the Riverlands).

1. So its still with their pants down if its four times? And also, the Andals surely knew about dragons before this time...

2) Dany's storyline proves that dragons are an asset. Not that they are enough. Dany didn't win in Astapor because of Drogon, she won because she had the control over the Unsullied.

2. An asset!?! In GRRM's own words, they are a "miracle." They herald the return of magic. They are the only reason she gains power. She gains control of the Unsullied BECAUSE of her dragons.

In fact tPatQ has shown us yet again how stupid the slavers actually are since they couldn't even kill one puny dragon (The KL mob alone took care of 5).

Well, it should be pointed out that the KL mob had thousands of men burnt alive, and that was killing CHAINED dragons who were cornered in caves. Even then, it was bloodbath. (or bbq)

(and a mob would have dismantled an F18 with a lot more ease in similar circumstances)

If we would live in a world were that F-18 was the only plain in the world and there wasn't anything truely developed at shooting them from the sky governments would be clamoring over themselves to get one.

Yet, we don't live in that world. We live in a world where governments are trying to get nuclear capacity to build WMD's. Whole wars have been (wrongfully) started because of it. Which was my point, I guess.

ETA: cut out a lot of stuff, tried to cut out snark as well

[alguien]

dammit.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This conversation is cracking me up.

But I'll bite (once), an F-18 can be very scary, depending on which country you live in. Planes flying overhead is not always a sign of "casual patriotism" for its observers.

In any event, the top speed of an F-18 is ~1200MPH, where a VTOL of some kind or a Westland Lynx might be closer to "dragon power." But don't quote me on that.

In any case, in a world without dragons or tech, dragons are scary, and they can set stuff on fire, knock things over, and dismember people.

It stands to reason one could take out an entire field of wights, given enough time and an infinite amount of "fuel."

I don't know about no F-18 but I've been under fire from an A-10 and it scared the bejeezus out of me. Somehow I think a dragon roaring fire down on my ass would be even worse.

[Lion of the West]

I was wondering, since everyone is so excited about Ran hinting about Daemon's survival... That tPatQ does not do him justice.

But how can we ever learn what Daemon did after his "death", if we'll only learn from Westerosi history through maesters account? The maesters are convinced he died.

I'm certainly not very excited of him surviving. He was pretty cool but not really someone who I can't wait to read more about. And I hate characters coming back from "certain" death and thus I hope that Daemon did in fact die with his dragon and his nephew.

[Robar]

On the ongoing discussion regarding House Stark: I'm pretty sure we haven't seen much of them in this novella because Lord Cregan Stark should be a child during the Dance of Dragons. It is known that he duelled the Dragonknight and it is equally known that the Dragonknight considered Cregan to be the finest swordsman he had ever met, which likely means he cannot be too old. The Dragonknight was born around 140, so if we suppose he had his fight against Cregan when he was 20, that would have happened in 160, thirty years after the Dance. If we suppose Cregan was 40 years old by then, he would have been 10 when Prince Joffrey visited Winterfell. This probably explains why Lord Too-Badass-To-Exist Dustin led the Winter Wolves info battle.

[Ran]

Barristan Selmy was beating men half his age at 60.

Nothing prevents Cregan Stark from being an old man when he fought Aemon... nor does anything prevent the Dragonknight from being, perhaps, somewhat exaggerative about an old man's ability; he was the very soul of courtesy, after all.