[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

2. Except that this is incorrect. We are mostly told that there are a great deal of lords and knights present in these battles. "By nightfall two thousand men were dead, amongst them many notables, including Lord Frey, Lord Lefford, Lord Bigglestone, Lord Charlton, Lord Swyft, Lord Reyne, Ser Claren Crakehall, and Ser Tyler Hill, the bastard of Lannisport." So if lords like these are falling it would be odd for them to "hold back".

In regards to the Martells I would think that pride and cautiousness would make both Aegon and Rhaenyra think twice before putting themselves into debt to a foreign power.

3. in regards to the treasury I would think that the parts that were not initially set for sellswords were in truth put to that use after Aegon started to run out of everything but enemies.

While this is a possibility we should remember that there's no such thing as a political thing called Essos. Westerosi is united under the Iron throne while Essos is not. This it would be more relevant to talk about what parts of Essos are going to invade Westeros rather than talk of the whole continent.

2. I’m not sure if incorrect is the proper conclusion to make. There are great lords and knights involved indeed, but from what we are given, there are not accompanied by the 20,000 plus men armies that we see present day. I would still mark this down to the fear of the dragons burning huge groups of men, and the realm’s division during the conflict.

The only house I see flexing its real muscle is House Hightower. The first battle of Tubleton involved 9,000 blacks and a Hightower force that was significantly larger. The northmen were said to have been outnumbered 10 to 1. So, it safe to say Lord Ormund had of huge host of 20,000+.

3. Well, it seems like Ser Tyland (master of coin) was in complete charge of this endeavor and he died not talking. I wonder if anyone else in the green camp knew.

Logistically, I don’t know if it were possible for Daemon to draw upon Old Town, Casterly Rock, and the Iron Bank. Tyland put the treasury in these places for safekeeping, likely meaning until after the war.

4. Sure, we can talk about Braavos and Volantis to start. When can then move to the slave cities that will want retribution aplenty. Nothing unites rivals like revenge and the possibility of monetary gain.

[Ser Lepus]

While this is a possibility we should remember that there's no such thing as a political thing called Essos. Westerosi is united under the Iron throne while Essos is not. This it would be more relevant to talk about what parts of Essos are going to invade Westeros rather than talk of the whole continent.

Tyrosh, Lys and Myr were united as the "Kingdom of the Three Daughters" at that time, so we have three major players (Braavos, Volantis and the Three Daughters), two medium players (Qohor and Pentos) and two lesser players (Lorath and Norvos).

I think it would be almost impossible to make Volantis and Braavos work together, unless the aim were to kill the dragons forever, but if you could make the three major players work together, the rest would follow.

2. I’m not sure if incorrect is the proper conclusion to make. There are great lords and knights involved indeed, but from what we are given, there are not accompanied by the 20,000 plus men armies that we see present day. I would still mark this down to the fear of the dragons burning huge groups of men, and the realm’s division during the conflict.

The only house I see flexing its real muscle is House Hightower. The first battle of Tubleton involved 9,000 blacks and a Hightower force that was significantly larger. The northmen were said to have been outnumbered 10 to 1. So, it safe to say Lord Ormund had of huge host of 20,000+.

Not just armies. Fleets too. The Three Daughter's fleet of ninety warships was described as very powerful, more powerful than the royal navy itself, but during the events of a Game of Thrones both the Royal Navy and the Redwyne fleet have 200 warships (and the Redwynes have 1000 merchant vessels too), the Iron Fleet has 100 warships (plus 400-900 longships)and even Manderly can build 50 warships in less than a year.

The world of The Princess and the Queen seems poorer and less populated that the world of a Game of Thrones.

[Veltigar]

Hah! Nah. Just that we don't know exactly what happened. It could have been a battle, a trap. I'm actually fairly interested to read about it. It seems like if she actually were killed by the Dornish, then Aegon would have razed Dorne to the ground.

The Conqueror was actually a big softy ;) Dorne broke him by killing his favorite wife (or alternativly he found out that Rhaenys slept with other men, so he sent her out to conquer Dorne as a punishment or something like that).

You said they didn't play an "important part in the actual fight for the city" yet one dragon was the reason she gained command of her troops.

That was before the fight started. And as I said before, if she had enough money she could have done exactly the same. The Unsullied on the other hand can not be replaced by anything to get the same outstanding result.

I don't think there was enough money in the world for the Astapori to trade their entire army. Only a dragon would tempt them to make the deal.

FWIW, I believe they would have sold their own mothers given the right price ;)

[Veltigar]

I think the logistics of breathing fire while flying at reasonably high speeds (quite possibly not much range or intensity due to wind etc) plus the fact that the only one who can decide *when* the dragon breathes flame is the dragon itself accounts for this.

Voice commands are an interesting possibility but those might be more difficult in mid-air.

If you can train a dragon to react to voice commands you must be able to train them to react to other things as well (like a particular combination of lashes or kicking it or ...)

I also think that given what we know of dragonfire (the use of it by Drogon) should be enough to see that it can be used while flying (although probably less effective at high speeds). Even if range was a problem, the dragons claw at each other in mid air. If they can get that close together they must be able to squeeze of a few firy breaths towards their opponents rider.

[Veltigar]

I saw no mention of the Tullys or the Martells? The Starks sent a small force and the ironmen obviously would not involve themselves in the conflict. I will check again, but I also saw no mention of the Tyrells or the Lannisters, aside from Ser Tyland. It seems the Lord Paramounts were generally willing to leave the fighting to their lesser houses.

It's probably best to take the heavily edited nature of tPatQ into account here, as well as the fact that the novella didn't cover the entire conflict.

For instance their must be a reason why the Baratheons didn't participate in the early stages of the war. That's odd, especially when earlier in the books it was said that the Stormlords would follow Lord Douchebag of House Baratheon where ever he lead. So, that makes large internal struggles less likely.

Perhaps the Martells thought that it was a nice time to raid the Stormlands. That would keep the Baratheons hands tied down in their own region.

Yea, the sack of Spicetown and the burning of High Tide all but cleaned them out. I agree. It stands to reason why houses like the Freys, Hightowers, and Swanns are so very cautious. It may not be the most honorable thing, but a great house can be knocked down a peg or two really quickly if it chooses wrong.

1. Loss of a very important settlement and with it 1/3 of your fleet and likely a great portion of your population.

2. The burning of your castle/capital and with it all of your gold and treasure.

3. The loss of more troops and ships in the war itself.

4. The loss of the Lord and many close relations.

This would indeed explain why house Velaryon is so weak now.

I believe the fall of House Velaryon isn't that simple to explain. Yes, these things all chipped in but they could have recovered from it. Lord Alyn "Oakenfist" Velaryon seems to have been more than powerful enough during his lifetime. So, I think that what really destroyed them happened after his death (e.g. perhaps they participated in one of the Blackfyre Rebellion)

3. Well, it seems like Ser Tyland (master of coin) was in complete charge of this endeavor and he died not talking. I wonder if anyone else in the green camp knew.

IIRC he didn't die. Didn't he become Lord of Casterley Rock after the war?

[Iona]

Veltigar, or anyone else for that matter - do we ever hear of a dragon blowtorching another dragon, with or without riders?

[Lion of the West]

2. I’m not sure if incorrect is the proper conclusion to make. There are great lords and knights involved indeed, but from what we are given, there are not accompanied by the 20,000 plus men armies that we see present day. I would still mark this down to the fear of the dragons burning huge groups of men, and the realm’s division during the conflict.

The only house I see flexing its real muscle is House Hightower. The first battle of Tubleton involved 9,000 blacks and a Hightower force that was significantly larger. The northmen were said to have been outnumbered 10 to 1. So, it safe to say Lord Ormund had of huge host of 20,000+.

3. Well, it seems like Ser Tyland (master of coin) was in complete charge of this endeavor and he died not talking. I wonder if anyone else in the green camp knew.

Logistically, I don’t know if it were possible for Daemon to draw upon Old Town, Casterly Rock, and the Iron Bank. Tyland put the treasury in these places for safekeeping, likely meaning until after the war.

4. Sure, we can talk about Braavos and Volantis to start. When can then move to the slave cities that will want retribution aplenty. Nothing unites rivals like revenge and the possibility of monetary gain.

Indeed it is true that there are a lot less troops going around than is usually the case in A Game of Thrones where we have tens of thousands of soldiers. However I would still oppose the idea that people are holding back when we see the lords themselves take to the field and fall in battle. Most likely there are simply not as many people around in Westeros at this time as there are about 150 years or so later.

While the Hightowers did indeed flex their muscles they were of course not alone but had other lords with them. However you are correct in that Ormund's army should've been around 20 000 heads strong.

Since the money was actually sent away I would assume that there were plenty of people who knew about the gold but its entirely possible that either brigands took it or that the gold was just locked away.

It is true that rivals can be united. But I have a hard time seeing Essos as a whole, or larger part of it, come together into a coalition to invade Westeros without someone to basically call the shots over them.

Tyrosh, Lys and Myr were united as the "Kingdom of the Three Daughters" at that time, so we have three major players (Braavos, Volantis and the Three Daughters), two medium players (Qohor and Pentos) and two lesser players (Lorath and Norvos).

I think it would be almost impossible to make Volantis and Braavos work together, unless the aim were to kill the dragons forever, but if you could make the three major players work together, the rest would follow.

Not just armies. Fleets too. The Three Daughter's fleet of ninety warships was described as very powerful, more powerful than the royal navy itself, but during the events of a Game of Thrones both the Royal Navy and the Redwyne fleet have 200 warships (and the Redwynes have 1000 merchant vessels too), the Iron Fleet has 100 warships (plus 400-900 longships)and even Manderly can build 50 warships in less than a year.

The world of The Princess and the Queen seems poorer and less populated that the world of a Game of Thrones.

While it is true that three kingdoms were united in a kingdom the important is that they "were" and not "are" united. I do not think we shall see the rebirth of that kingdom anytime soon.

I totally agree that Westeros seems to have been a lot less populated and poored than in the main series. I would think that this can actually be seen as another mark in favor of the Iron Throne uniting Westeros to give them peace and prosperity.

[Valkyrist]

There's been a couple of podcasts on the novella, if anyone's interested:

• The Boiled Leather Audio Hour (ep. 24)
  
• Vassals of Kingsgrave (ep. 46)
  

[Mr Hodor]

Veltigar, or anyone else for that matter - do we ever hear of a dragon blowtorching another dragon, with or without riders?

i think it was stated that dragons prefer to fight each other by tooth and claw rather than fire.

[Iona]

i think it was stated that dragons prefer to fight each other by tooth and claw rather than fire.

That's what got me thinking... We have these flying flamethrowers, but they never use their unique weapon on each other. Someone mentioned it could be that there was a sort of taboo among the dragonriders not to do this, but what if the "fault" lies with the dragons? I'm suggesting that dragons might be the ones that decline from torching each other, and no matter how much the rider urges them, they will not rain fire on another dragon.

[Ser Lepus]

While it is true that three kingdoms were united in a kingdom the important is that they "were" and not "are" united. I do not think we shall see the rebirth of that kingdom anytime soon.

My bad. I thought that you were speaking of the time of tPatQ.

[Veltigar]

Veltigar, or anyone else for that matter - do we ever hear of a dragon blowtorching another dragon, with or without riders?

Not that I'm aware of.

i think it was stated that dragons prefer to fight each other by tooth and claw rather than fire.

It was never stated like that IIRC. The text just said that dragons didn't use fire because there scales were very resistant to flame (and the scales got tougher when they get older).

For the record, I have no problem with the explanation given by the novella about dragons using no fire in conflicts where only dragons are involved. However, I do have a problem with the lack of dragonflames in conflicts were the dragonriders take part in. Especially, since dragonriders are shown to be so vital to the effective use of dragons.

[Veltigar]

Not just armies. Fleets too. The Three Daughter's fleet of ninety warships was described as very powerful, more powerful than the royal navy itself, but during the events of a Game of Thrones both the Royal Navy and the Redwyne fleet have 200 warships (and the Redwynes have 1000 merchant vessels too), the Iron Fleet has 100 warships (plus 400-900 longships)and even Manderly can build 50 warships in less than a year.

The world of The Princess and the Queen seems poorer and less populated that the world of a Game of Thrones.

Agreed. I think this all but proves that a united 7 Kingdoms is better for the general public than a Westeros were all the Kingdoms are independent.

Indeed it is true that there are a lot less troops going around than is usually the case in A Game of Thrones where we have tens of thousands of soldiers. However I would still oppose the idea that people are holding back when we see the lords themselves take to the field and fall in battle. Most likely there are simply not as many people around in Westeros at this time as there are about 150 years or so later.

I agree.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Less population and less wealth is a perfectly good explanation for the low troop levels we have seen. It also stands to reason that the Seven Kingdoms prospered due to their unification. A Targaryen run government likely codified tax laws, trade laws, and a standardized monetary system. I like theses ideas a great deal. There is also no mention of the Redwynes, likely meaning the house became as powerful as it is later on.

However, it would seem houses like the Lannisters, Hightowers, and Freys would be just as wealthy in this era as they are in present day. I would still argue that the presence of so many dragons in the Targaryen menagerie made the need for large armies and navies nonexistent. Why raise so many men when dragons can burn them asunder? Why raise so many warships when dragons will burn them to crisp? No need to worry about outside invasions when the ruling family has an air force? Aegon I invaded with a ragtag band of troops. Loren Lannister and Mern Gardener brought 55,000 (lets say 35,000 Reach and 20,000 Westermen) men to bear on Aegon’s 11,000 conscripts at the Field of Fire.

So, is it a case of being poorer and less populated, or is it a case of practicality given the presence of so much dragon power? Maybe someone with knowledge of population patterns can explain the difference?

The last we hear of Ser Tyland is indeed in the queen’s dungeons. His fate is left in the air. If he lived, then it would make sense that he eventually gave up the locations of all of the crown’s money. If he died of torture, it stands to reason that the Hightowers, Lannisters, and Iron Bank kept the loot. Oldtown, Casterly Rock, and the Iron Bank are secure locations. I doubt theft was an issue.

[Veltigar]

The last we hear of Ser Tyland is indeed in the queen’s dungeons. His fate is left in the air. If he lived, then it would make sense that he eventually gave up the locations of all of the crown’s money. If he died of torture, it stands to reason that the Hightowers, Lannisters, and Iron Bank kept the loot. Oldtown, Casterly Rock, and the Iron Bank are secure locations. I doubt theft was an issue.

Perhaps the MUSH sheds some light on things?

There is also no mention of the Redwynes, likely meaning the house became as powerful as it is later on.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks they rose to prominence later. Perhaps we'll finally learn why Ser Ryam Redwyne was such a dreadful hand in relationship to this (e.g. He might have picked the realms coffers clean to make sure that his kin could become a naval power).

So, is it a case of being poorer and less populated, or is it a case of practicality given the presence of so much dragon power? Maybe someone with knowledge of population patterns can explain the difference?

Probably both. The 7 Kingdoms obviously became richer and more populated during Targaryen reign, but they might have changed their way of fighting as well by keeping less retainers. I do think that the later reason is less important though. Another reason that has been mentioned before is that many Lords might have kept clear of the fighting.

I think that if the war had lasted even longer we would see as many men as during Aegon's invasion. But the armies would be organized differently. Instead of massive hosts like Loren and Merne, several smaller forces (like Roddy the Ruin and his 2000 troops) that were more mobile would probably be prefered.

[RumHam]

Veltigar, or anyone else for that matter - do we ever hear of a dragon blowtorching another dragon, with or without riders?

They do shoot fire at each other in battle. That's how Aegon II and Baela end up with burns. Because of their scales the fire doesn't usually harm them, though Moondancer's eyes (like as not) get melted by Sunfyre.

A dragon’s scales are largely (though not entirely) impervious to flame; they protect the more vulnerable flesh and musculature beneath. As a dragon ages, its scales thicken and grow harder, affording even more protection, even as its flames burn hotter and fiercer (where the flames of a hatchling can set straw aflame, the flames of Balerion or Vhagar in the fullness of their power could and did melt steel and stone). When two dragons meet in mortal combat, therefore, they will oft employ weapons other than their flame: claws black as iron, long as swords, and sharp as razors, jaws so powerful they can crunch through even a knight’s steel plate, tails like whips whose lashing blows have been known to smash wagons to splinters, break the spine of heavy destriers, and send men flying fifty feet in the air.

The dragons met violently a thousand feet above the field of battle, as balls of fire burst and blossomed, so bright that men swore later that the sky was full of suns.

Soaring like eagles, stooping like hawks, they circled, snapping and roaring, spitting fire, but never closing. Once the Blue Queen vanished into a bank of cloud, only to reappear an instant later, diving on Seasmoke from behind to scorch her tail with a burst of cobalt flame.

Moondancer turned and came back at him, spitting fire. Sunfyre answered with a furnace blast of golden flame so bright it lit the yard below like a second sun, a blast that took Moondancer full in the eyes. Like as not, the young dragon was blinded in that instant, yet still she flew on, slamming into Sunfyre in a tangle of wings and claws.

[Iona]

RumHam - doh, of course. I was too deep in my thoughts to remember such "little details"... Thanks for giving me a kick in the rump.

[The hairy bear]

The last we hear of Ser Tyland is indeed in the queen’s dungeons. His fate is left in the air. If he lived, then it would make sense that he eventually gave up the locations of all of the crown’s money. If he died of torture, it stands to reason that the Hightowers, Lannisters, and Iron Bank kept the loot. Oldtown, Casterly Rock, and the Iron Bank are secure locations. I doubt theft was an issue.

The MUSH reveals that Tyland Lannister was Hand of the King and died of the Winter Fever on 134, three years after the war. It's one of the things that was included in version 2.0, so it's very likely that this information is canon.

If so, the easiest explanation is that when Aegon II return to KL, he frees Ser Tyland and names him his Hand. But if Rhaenyra's torturer's were any competent, he should have revealed the locations of the money. The parts sent to Lannisport and Oldtown were far from the queen's reach anyway. I don't think the Bank of Braavos would give the money to another claimant. And the part that remained in KL could have been already spent in sellswords. So the information from Ser Tyland may bo of no use at all.

[Lion of the West]

However, it would seem houses like the Lannisters, Hightowers, and Freys would be just as wealthy in this era as they are in present day. I would still argue that the presence of so many dragons in the Targaryen menagerie made the need for large armies and navies nonexistent. Why raise so many men when dragons can burn them asunder? Why raise so many warships when dragons will burn them to crisp? No need to worry about outside invasions when the ruling family has an air force? Aegon I invaded with a ragtag band of troops. Loren Lannister and Mern Gardener brought 55,000 (lets say 35,000 Reach and 20,000 Westermen) men to bear on Aegon’s 11,000 conscripts at the Field of Fire.

So, is it a case of being poorer and less populated, or is it a case of practicality given the presence of so much dragon power? Maybe someone with knowledge of population patterns can explain the difference?

The last we hear of Ser Tyland is indeed in the queen’s dungeons. His fate is left in the air. If he lived, then it would make sense that he eventually gave up the locations of all of the crown’s money. If he died of torture, it stands to reason that the Hightowers, Lannisters, and Iron Bank kept the loot. Oldtown, Casterly Rock, and the Iron Bank are secure locations. I doubt theft was an issue.

I agree that it would've been a bad idea to gather great mass-armies rip for the dragons' to roast. However if smaller armies were raised it stands to reason that the smaller armies lost would've been replaceable if not the mass of available men had been much lower.If lord Lannister can put 20 000 men on the field, and to avoid dragons field 3000 men, then he should be able to field another five such armies or so before the West is spent.

What I mean with theft is that its a long way from King's Landing to Oldtown and Casterly Rock and given that the war is likely to have broken out before the treasures arrived I don't find it entirely impossible that the Blacks might have tried to apprehend these transports

[History of Westeros]

If you can train a dragon to react to voice commands you must be able to train them to react to other things as well (like a particular combination of lashes or kicking it or ...)

I also think that given what we know of dragonfire (the use of it by Drogon) should be enough to see that it can be used while flying (although probably less effective at high speeds). Even if range was a problem, the dragons claw at each other in mid air. If they can get that close together they must be able to squeeze of a few firy breaths towards their opponents rider.

Yeah I agree with that as a possibility. Seems pretty likely there would be some ways to get your dragon to breathe fire on command. Aemond sure did have Vhagar torch a lot of things, for example, so he was probably giving her commands sometimes. Though I suspect she probably knew what was expected of her most of the time, heh.