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[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion


chrisdaw

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On the might of House Hightower:



They are not that powerful per se during the Dance. At least two of their principal bannermen - Alan Beesbury of Honeyholt and Lord Mullendore of Uplands - declare for Rhaenyra and fight against Ormund in the army under Lord Thaddeus Rowan.



And House Tyrell did not follow Hightower lead and declared the Reach for Aegon II. Lady Tyrell kept her house - and thus the Reach proper out of the war. Individual noble houses in the Reach declared for either Rhaenyra or Aegon. After Lord Ormund had won the battle near Oldtown with the help of Tessarion his army subdued all the Reach houses on his way from Oldtown to Tumbleton and added their military might to his own. But those men were no legal Hightower levies or vassals, they were people who were forced to join his fight.


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Nettles flew east from Mpool on Sheepstealer. A gold dragon says she was carrying Daemon's child. A silver star says she was BBP's great great grandmother. Another one says Tyrion will connect the dots and BBP will be riding Viserion.

I really don't see the connection between Nettles and Brown Ben, other than that they're both brown. Besides don't we have a fair idea of Ben's linage and where the two drops of Targaryen blood come from?

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I really don't see the connection between Nettles and Brown Ben, other than that they're both brown. Besides don't we have a fair idea of Ben's linage and where the two drops of Targaryen blood come from?

I think there a re few potential hints...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100936-brown-ben-plumms-ancestry-spoilers/

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Of course dragons are a major complicating factor in attempting to deal with such a succession struggle relatively mercyfully. From what we have seen, it is difficult to know if the dragons would have been motivated to defend and rescue their riders.

Drogon certainly was on a couple of occasions, but maybe Dany's bond with him is stronger than normal. But the danger of prisoners escaping and making it to their dragons to cause havoc would have always been present either way.

Which is why Alicent shouldn't have started her bid for the crown in the first place and Viserys should have never allowed his Hightower kids to bond with dragons, if he wanted for Rhaenyra and her branch to inherit.

Old king Visrys probably expected his children and grandchildren to marry with each other, closing the internal gap within the family.

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On the might of House Hightower:

They are not that powerful per se during the Dance. At least two of their principal bannermen - Alan Beesbury of Honeyholt and Lord Mullendore of Uplands - declare for Rhaenyra and fight against Ormund in the army under Lord Thaddeus Rowan.

And House Tyrell did not follow Hightower lead and declared the Reach for Aegon II. Lady Tyrell kept her house - and thus the Reach proper out of the war. Individual noble houses in the Reach declared for either Rhaenyra or Aegon. After Lord Ormund had won the battle near Oldtown with the help of Tessarion his army subdued all the Reach houses on his way from Oldtown to Tumbleton and added their military might to his own. But those men were no legal Hightower levies or vassals, they were people who were forced to join his fight.

I disagree with this analysis:

1. The Hightowers steered House Redwyne to Aegon. Granted, we don’t know just how powerful the Redwynes are at this point, but them being mentioned in the way that they were, it stands to reason it was still a significant pickup. Sea power was likely needed to protect Oldtown while such a huge force was off warring.

2. The Hightowers mustered a huge force (likely 20,000+) even with the defections of three key bannerman: Costayne, Beesbury, and Mullendore. Think of what their might is present day Westeros, with all of their strength united.

3. I will reread, but I don’t remember the Lady of Highgarden declaring for anyone. With her son merely a child she likely stayed neutral and allowed the lords bannerman to make their own decisions. Remember, house Tyrell's position at this point is still precarious. Their lineage is weak and they are likely still resented. It was assumed by Rhaenyra that Lady Tyrell would follow House Hightower.

4. The Hightower host did not start subjugating opposing houses until it crossed the Mander. The resistance that Lord Ormund was facing was likely guerilla style forces meant to hinder and bleed his army, not offer serious battle. The forces being added were likely not that great.

5. The Hightower host was caught in a major trap. The Rowans and Tarlys are serious powers as we know. We don’t know when the Costaynes, Mullendores, and Bessburys declared for Rhaenyra. It was likely after the main Hightower host left Oldtown, or else Lord Ormund (who seems pretty competent) would have likely marched on and subdued them first.

A host of any size and quality caught between a hammer and an anvil is in all likelihood doomed.

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There is another dragon, who hasn't been named, according to Ran. So there's four dragons who survived the Dance!

This is very interesting to me...

On my first read, I'd only noticed that Sheepstealer was "never seen again," and posted a fourth dragon/great stone beast post several pages back.

If there are indeed four dragons that survived the DotD, that in itself could be taken as a hint that there may be four dragons in ASOIAF (post DwD)...

Personally, I think the story could use a fourth dragon, particularly one that is not "aligned" with Dany that she may have to confront at some point.

If not, it still seems this quote must be "reconciled" at some point.

A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it happened.

And, sure, Tyrion could have half-seen Drogon, or perhaps the "shape" could be something else entirely... or it could be one of the surviving dragons...

And perhaps Cannibal is a "better" choice than Sheepstealer for a potentially "evil," wild, and possibly riderless dragon that lives in the Sorrows... Or, perhaps, the unnamed dragon will come into play...

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This is very interesting to me...

On my first read, I'd only noticed that Sheepstealer was "never seen again," and posted a fourth dragon/great stone beast post several pages back.

If there are indeed four dragons that survived the DotD, that in itself could be taken as a hint that there may be four dragons in ASOIAF (post DwD)...

Personally, I think the story could use a fourth dragon, particularly one that is not "aligned" with Dany that she may have to confront at some point.

If not, it still seems this quote must be "reconciled" at some point.

And, sure, Tyrion could have half-seen Drogon, or perhaps the "shape" could be something else entirely... or it could be one of the surviving dragons...

And perhaps Cannibal is a "better" choice than Sheepstealer for a potentially "evil," wild, and possibly riderless dragon that lives in the Sorrows... Or, perhaps, the unnamed dragon will come into play...

Those dragons were likely killed as well until there was one left as the Dance wasn't over after Aegon killed Rhaenyra. GRRM said Dany's dragons are the only ones in existence in the main series.

The animal flying overhead in the Sorrows could have been a bat or a wyvern. Wyverns could be miniaturized versions of dragons.

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Those dragons were likely killed as well until there was one left as the Dance wasn't over after Aegon killed Rhaenyra. GRRM said Dany's dragons are the only ones in existence in the main series.

The animal flying overhead in the Sorrows could have been a bat or a wyvern. Wyverns could be miniaturized versions of dragons.

Another option exists. They flew North and were captured/reanimated by the Others. I’m still hoping for undead dragons and this novella has only bolstered my hopes.

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Not all the dragons die in the Dance, nor are any of the dragons seen in the Dance the last dragons to die during the reign of Aegon III. If we look at the timetable there have to hatch dragon eggs as late as about 150 AC. Else Ser Arlan would have not been alive to seen the last dragon one year before her death (he is closer to sixty then to fifty when he dies in 209 AC which means that he cannot have been born in 140s).



Ran has already confirmed that Silverwing will survive the whole Dance. And since there is one dragon that was not mentioned in TPatQ at all we can reasonably assume that either Viserys or Rhaena Targaryen are going to become dragonriders, too.



I'd not even be surprised if Aegon the Unworthy, Naerys, or the Dragonknight had eggs that hatched. Although I doubt that they ever became dragonriders.

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Another option exists. They flew North and were captured/reanimated by the Others. I’m still hoping for undead dragons and this novella has only bolstered my hopes.

I feel that the "great stone beast" from the HOTU would also be nicely "reconciled" if the thing in the Sorrows turns out to be a beast w/ greyscale, whether or not it is one of the surviving dragons from the Dance...

But an undead dragon would be pretty sweet as well. :cheers:

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Fairly sure George has not said that, as he's noted many times previously that he doesn't really believe in stories that end up with everything tied up in a neat little bow. You will surely know, broadly, the important details (read: relevant to the present story) about the past. But as we know, there's always little details that add depth and color.

By the time I finish A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, you will know everything there is to know about Robert's Rebellion.

I am all for added colour and depth. ;)

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Ran,



I think I've found a couple of possible mistakes in the BoD trees:



House Beesbury has: his father, {Lord Alan} (b. 92), died in captivity during the Dance of the Dragons (d. 130),


House Hightower has: {Lady Lynett} (b. 92, d. 151), m. Lord Bertram Beesbury (b. 92), killed in the Dance of the Dragons (d. 130),



Alan and Bertram are supposed to be the same guy, no?



House Tyrell has Lord Lyonel born at 130, but the Green Council discuss about him at 129 (calling him a mewling boy in swadling clothes)



Also, apparently the Swyfts (and the Fossoways) were a noble house during the Dance. But that could have changed at the time of the conquest of Dorne, I guess...







It is said that the majority of the battles took place on sea. The only sea battle that we hear about is the Battle of the Gullet, but I suspect there were more.





I don't remember that being said at any point. I think you are missremembering this quote: "Though armies marched and met in savage battle, much of the slaughter took place on water and, specially, in the air."


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I'm on my re-read of tPatQ and I've got a few minor question:

1 - About Syrax being injured by Ser Byron Swann (as suggested in a very interesting post by tze around 55 pages ago...), at the beginning of the Dance:

...Syrax had recently produced another clutch.


So, can't it be that rather than injured (or in addition to) the she-dragon is weak from childbirth (just as Raenyra herself)?


2 - Does anyone else find suspicious the maester of Storm's End? I got the impression that Lord Borros reacted too harshly to the message brought by Lucerys:

...all the witnesses agree on what Lord Borros said and did. Never a man of letters, he handed the queen’s letter to his maester, who cracked the seal and whispered the message into his lordship’s ear. A frown stole across Lord Borros’s face. He stroked his beard, scowled at Lucerys Velaryon...
...
...Lord Borros said. “Go home, pup, and tell the bitch your mother that the Lord of Storm’s End is not a dog that she can whistle up at need to set against her foes.”


May the maester have somehow altered the message? Maybe just making it sound more discourteos than it was, in order to alienate Borros from the cause of the Blacks.

Or maybe it's just me reading too much into Lady Dustin's words:

As Maester Medrick went to one knee to whisper in Bolton’s ear, Lady Dustin’s mouth twisted in distaste. “If I were queen, the first thing I would do would be to kill all those grey rats. They scurry everywhere, living on the leavings of the lords, chittering to one another, whispering in the ears of their masters. But who are the masters and who are the servants, truly? Every great lord has his maester, every lesser lord aspires to one. If you do not have a maester, it is taken to mean that you are of little consequence. The grey rats read and write our letters, even for such lords as cannot read themselves, and who can say for a certainty that they are not twisting the words for their own ends? What good are they, I ask you?”



3 - Who is Lady Mysaria?

By evenfall, Rhaenyra Targaryen found herself sore beset on every side, her reign in ruins. The queen raged when she learned that Maidenpool had gone over to the foe, that the girl Nettles had escaped, that her own beloved consort had betrayed her, and she trembled when Lady Mysaria warned her against the coming dark, that this night would be worse than the last.


I can't remember her name, nor understand her relevance as a character... Am I missing something? Can she be a red priestess of sort (warning the queen against the night that is dark and full of terror)??



What do you think?

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I don't remember that being said at any point. I think you are missremembering this quote: "Though armies marched and met in savage battle, much of the slaughter took place on water and, specially, in the air."

Fair enough....thank you, that alters my analysis a bit. The question was what happened to Lord Dalton Greyjoy, as both sides sent him offers of an alliance?

The most likely scenario is that he decided to remain neutral. But he could have possibly been dissuaded by the combined might at sea of the Hightowers, Redwynes, and Lannisters, assuming that had such power at this point.

Its pretty clear that house Redwyne was not the major sea power it is present day, as that honor belonged to house Velaryon during the time of the war.

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Also, apparently the Swyfts (and the Fossoways) were a noble house during the Dance. But that could have changed at the time of the conquest of Dorne, I guess...

Current knightly House Swyft could be a junior branch of the lordly Swyfts of old.

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